BF2S Forums General Motors to close 4 plants by 2010

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

A union is a business, just like any corporation, it is in business to make money for big union bosses, NOT to take care of you. Or do the union leadership go on strike and not collect a paycheck with you? At least a corporation does not lie about why it is in business.

The difference between UPS and GM is this, UPS can actually afford to pay its non-skilled labor force what it does. GM can not, yet there the union is demanding fat contracts for people that could be replaced by non-English speaking non-educated immigrants. Oh wait! they ARE being replaced by non-English speaking non-educated immigrants. See what I meanabout artifically raising your worth? The fact is, the people that are benifiting from these contracts ARE NOT worth it in regards to training, and education, or skill. So GM will use a work force more in line with the skill set.

So if the big union bosses are only out to get rich and don't care about it's members why are you making the argument for under skilled employees getting paid more than they should? I've gotten help from them before when the company was unresponsive. I had issues with payroll, moving my stock, and insurance problems. I don't regret a single dollar I paid in dues.

Non skilled and skilled employees are on different pay levels. A new employee walking through the doors of could not run a route. Training is a huge part of UPS and the pay reflects it. When I started at UPS it was a seven year wait to go full time.  I'd love to see you attempt to do a route with no training. It wouldn't be long before we had you in the back of a truck "breaking you in" at $8.50 an hour . At least that's the way I always got rid of the people I knew weren't going to make it (I was a training supervisor for years) . There are some people like you that actually believe that the lazy are untouchable in a union company. We sent them home limping out within the first week. When I was in management I had a hard time keeping recruits. It's a long road to get to top pay. I had to explain to them that over the long term it might be worth it. You need to be trained and put in your time first.

Actually HR used to get mad at us and tell us that we didn't do enough to keep them. It cost the company thousands just to get people started. Even the Union stewards would encourage us to kick the slackers out. A weak link in the chain just meant longer hours for them also.

UPS sends it's employees to school. They encourage it and pay for a portion of it. It benefits the company in the long run. Like everything in life a union job is reflective of what kind of effort you put into it. I am speaking from direct experience, over a long period of time, and from both sides of the debate (Management/Union). Maybe UPS is the exception. But I still feel GM is simply a failure to react to drastic changes in market conditions.

You are running a UPS commercial, and you are correct. I am talking about the automotive industry, it's unions, and its inept management.

Your job is fluid, it changes apparently, you need to be trained to deal with customers. Basically, driving yor own truch on a route is no different than operating your own business. It is up to you to deal with customer complaints and appeasement. I also would think you would be doing your part to bring in new business through your interations with people.


I am talking about workers who do nothing more than stick a bolt in a hole and get paid as much as you and I. I said unskilled labor on an assy line and its rediculous benefits is partly to blame for the company's demise, due to its affect on the companies bottom line and the continued threat of strike when they do not get what they want. Practially forcing a company to seek labor elsewhere.
I know UPS is a great company. The rewards for hard work are numerous, but if you read back, I never included skilled labor. A route driver and all of the dynamics that goes along with it, I would consider skilled. I do not have a problem with anything skilled labor makes. I do not beleive a company should be put into a position through threats to pay artifically inflated salaries and benefits to unskilled laborers.

Now, tell me again how and why you would disagree with me.

If it sounds like I am running a commercial it's only because I am speaking of things I have been through. If you want I can speculate with you in our own preconcieved world when it comes to the automotive industry. UPS is a great example because it employs a quarter of a million union employees. I was hoping to give you a little personal insight.  I don't think that the unskilled package car unloader being paid 8.50 an hour to bust their ass is overpaid neither. UPS has something called MAR (Minimal Acceptable Rate). There is still something to be said for out an out hard work. I know you never said skilled labor shouldn't be paid well. But the point I was trying to get across to you was that the company turns their unskilled labor into skilled. The pay is reflective of their training. The training is also custom tailored to fit the actual work they will be doing. It's a partnership that works well for both the company and the employee. It's like this with a lot of companies.. Union and non-union alike. So I don't see your beef here.

I was offering my personal perspective. If you think I am disagreeing with you when it comes to overpaying under qualified labor then you missed the part where I said I tried to get rid of those people. If they didn't show any progress within the first 30 days I sent them home with a coke and a smile. The Union didn't have any problem with those types getting fired. It's in their intrest to protect the longevity of the company as well.

Varegg wrote:

I think you miss the whole point of a cooperate nation like your own lowing, what do even unskilled labor use their money on ? ... and do underpaid unskilled labor not use their money on ... you guys are now trapped in a downwards spiral where unemployment increases and buying power with it, the merchandise produced find less and less consumers each day, the companies not selling their products will have to lay off more people because of this ... many of your workers soon can't afford buying petrol for their cars to take them to work even though your fuel prices is so cheap is laughable ...

More businesses besides the auto industry will feel the same recession ...

Last edited by lowing (2008-06-09 14:21:14)

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

I think you miss the whole point of a cooperate nation like your own lowing, what do even unskilled labor use their money on ? ... and do underpaid unskilled labor not use their money on ... you guys are now trapped in a downwards spiral where unemployment increases and buying power with it, the merchandise produced find less and less consumers each day, the companies not selling their products will have to lay off more people because of this ... many of your workers soon can't afford buying petrol for their cars to take them to work even though your fuel prices is so cheap is laughable ...

More businesses besides the auto industry will feel the same recession ...

I beg to differ, the problem is, most Americans are so preoccupied with trying to "keep up with the Jones'" that they refuse to live within their means. That is hardly the govts. fault. It is a personal responsibility issue. If you are in debt, do not blame corporate America, blame yourself.

I have no problem affording $4.00 gas. Does it suck to pay it, you bet, but I am not loosing my fuckin' house, and car over it. I am also willing to bet however, those that are, have latest XBox 360, SUV, and Plasma TV to move out of their fore-closed home.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing you seem to believe that workers should be precluded from the right to own private property given that one has to 'live beyond ones means' in order to purchase property, given the cost of it (going into debt, i.e., taking out a mortgage is almost certainly inevitably unavoidable). Do you rent or something?

I am a home owner and yes I have a mortgage, here is the difference, I have one I can afford. I did not get into an ARM where I artificailly could afford my home for 5 years. I am not a person who did not qualify for a loan but was given one anyway.

No generation is more indebted than today's generations. We work less and owe/buy more. Do you really not see the problems that causes?

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

I beg to differ, the problem is, most Americans are so preoccupied with trying to "keep up with the Jones'" that they refuse to live within their means. That is hardly the govts. fault. It is a personal responsibility issue. If you are in debt, do not blame corporate America, blame yourself.

I have no problem affording $4.00 gas. Does it suck to pay it, you bet, but I am not loosing my fuckin' house, and car over it. I am also willing to bet however, those that are, have latest XBox 360, SUV, and Plasma TV to move out of their fore-closed home.

How can one live within ones means holding a job that pays minimum wage witch in your country sucks ass ... consumer power meaning consumers making a fair wage is what could have rescued some of Americas economic problems ...

Minimum wage is not designed to be a living wage. It is designed as a training wage, if you will. It is designed for high school kids to get beer and gas money while a company turns high profits. It is not designed to support a family of 4 and their fuckin' mortgage. THat is your responsibility to work your way up to those wages. THis is why I do not feel sorry for a 30 something worker that is bitching about their minimum fuckin' wage. At 30 something, you are SUPPOSED to be beyond that wage in education, trianing and marketablity.

........and what do you want to do? Hand hold slackers through life and force companies to pay through the nose for laziness, lack of ambition, shitty attitudes.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing you seem to believe that workers should be precluded from the right to own private property given that one has to 'live beyond ones means' in order to purchase property, given the cost of it (going into debt, i.e., taking out a mortgage is almost certainly inevitably unavoidable). Do you rent or something?

I am a home owner and yes I have a mortgage, here is the difference, I have one I can afford. I did not get into an ARM where I artificailly could afford my home for 5 years. I am not a person who did not qualify for a loan but was given one anyway.

No generation is more indebted than today's generations. We work less and owe/buy more. Do you really not see the problems that causes?

So you're in debt. If you are not self employed then you are actually in bondage to your employer. You are not strictly speaking personally responsible. If he fails at his job then you will pay the price of his ineptitude by losing your job. You may then enter a period where you cannot procure another job, given the evident downturn in the US economy under the Republican regime (5.5% unemployment now). Ultimately you could lose your house due exclusively to your employer or down to environmental matters outside your control. Personal responsibility won't have a damn thing to do with it. ARM or no ARM. Plenty of people lose their homes and have lost their homes who do not have ARMs. Where has personal responsibility saved them?

CameronPoe wrote:

I think lowing's flawed logic arises in the fact he believes the world is a place of 'equal opportunity', which is just not possible as everybody's starting point is different and many have a headstart over others. He also seems to hold the strange view that everyone can be a scientist or an engineer or a doctor or something and that anyone who can't should live a miserable subsistence life. That ain't a world I want to live in.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sorry Cam, I am what is called marketable. I have lost my job through lay offs, and I always find another. Never not once have I taken a penny of govt. assistance. Even during my period of self induced failure when I tried to start my own business and failed. I worked through my problems and solved them. I still had my trade to fall back on. Sorry Cam, I am a bad example for you to use, to show personal irresponsibility and indentured servitude. I pay my mortgage, and can and will continue to do so, regardless of the housing market or gas prices.

You lost your job because of other people. Hooray for personal responsibility! It puzzles me how you can place such inordinate amount of faith in corporations when they have fucked you over on several occasions. You will afford them all the government assistance in the world but simple measures to ensure social harmony seem to be the most evil thing on earth in your mind.... I find that very bizarre, as I'm sure most Europeans would. Another point: when dealing in generalities you can't use but one example (i.e., in this case you) to prove a point. How many decent hard-working people who got laid off didn't manage to get employment before their house was taken off them? The people whose employers decided it would be nice to move all those fabulous American jobs to the likes of China and India? Your faith in corporations and preference for corporate welfare over the welfare of human beings is really weird.

Last edited by lowing (2008-06-09 15:05:21)

Karbin wrote:

And AGAIN, lowing, I'll tell you...........

Hourly costs per unit 5-7% of the Wholesale cost.
Management costs per unit 10-12% of the Wholesale cost.

I guess I will have to disagree with you.

OTHER NEWS

A protest against General Motors is entering its second week as hundreds of workers continued to form a blockade around the company's Oshawa, Ont. headquarters on Monday.
GM workers form a blockade around the company's Oshawa headquarters for the 6th day.

ctvtoronto.ca

However, a legal injunction is expected to take effect this week, forcing protesters to end the blockade. But workers say they're not giving up their fight to convince GM that the Oshawa plant is worth keeping open.

"If I lose my job, he may just lose his job, you never know," said one protester as she turned a GM employee away from headquarters Monday morning.

Workers began taking action against GM when the company announced it would close down Oshawa's truck plant in 2009, effectively laying off about 2,600 workers.

The announcement came just weeks after the company and the Canadian Auto Workers union reached a tentative agreement. GM has said rising fuel costs have forced them to downsize production on some of their gas-guzzling vehicles.

Despite the mounting frustration, the protest has been peaceful. On Monday, GM management tried to get into headquarters but when they were blocked, they shook hands with some of the protesters.

Chris Buckley, the CAW local union leader, said he's not surprised things have remained peaceful.

"This protest is not about violence and it will continue this way," he said. "It's just not what this union is all about."

However, the protesters will step up their action on Thursday as the union is planning a massive rally. Posters are going up throughout the Durham region in hopes of attracting 10,000 supporters to the rally.

Buckley did say the federal government should be mindful of the economic downfall that will hit Durham, should the plant close down.

Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty is the MP for the Oshawa region but has not attended the rally, Buckley said.

"Instead of petting the animals at the fair, Flaherty should have been here," he said.

Buckley said the union is not ruling out a wildcat strike but for now, union members are being urged to show up for work on time.

With a report from CTV Toronto's Dana Levenson


Now, there are two plants in Oshawa, one builds trucks the other builds cars
Both plants are classed, by GM, as cost efficient and build quality products.
Both have received either, North American car or truck of the year awards.
Both are being closed.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

If you feel that your "company's" services as a bolt installer can be easily replace by a cheaper "company", and you spent 15 years not expanding your company's service abilities, ( education, cross training etc.) then you are as inept as GM's management, which you already condemned. Tell me the difference.

A company's "duty" to an employee is only in tact as long as that employee works there. Period. People need to take charge of their lives and make themselves marketable and stop relying on corporate America and govt. for their ride through life.


Too many loans and grants out there for you tell me that a person that wants an education can not get one. The problem is, the person taking the initiative to pursue an education.

Anyway, does my analogy make sense? Where you are a business with a service to provide?

lowing: You persist in believing you live in an equal opportunity world - you don't! Humans are not ideal beings. Every human is not identically capable. People have limitations. NOT EVERYONE CAN BE AN ENGINEER, let alone pay for the education that would enable them to become one. A person can cross-train all they want over various departments of a manufacturing facility but when they move to Guatemala then it's a fat lot of good it does you because it's probably indicative of the fact that that entire industry is going to move wholesale to the third world to cut costs. Not to mention that several thousand people with similar skills are released into the labour market with probably limited opportunities for re-employment in that field. So essentially it's 'back to square one'.

Your view of humans as just another tradeable commodity is a little shocking. I would prefer to live in a 'nicer' world than that where every human is valued.

Last edited by lowing (2008-06-09 15:26:17)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Life is not fair I think we have already agreed on that. The only difference between us are those that try and those that don't.

If you are a 30 year bold installer, I think it is safe to say you did not try. If you do not have a HS education, I think it is safe to say, you did not try. If you are 30 years old and bitching about minimum wage, I think it is safe to say, you did not try.

Your only solution is to steal from those that have succeeded and give it to those that have not. This is communism/socialism. and we do not need to go over how I feel about that.

I like living in a world that I free to succeed or fail as I see fit, without any govt. interventions or hinderings.

Well I live in a world where I take pride in the fact that this guy who has Down Syndrome up home in Donegal and who works in the local factory will have a safety net should that factory close. You believe it's 'stealing', here in Europe we regard it as a non-negotiable societal debt. If it weren't for socialism, the likes of France, Portugal and numerous other European nations could have succumbed to Communism. We chose the middle ground and have reaped the benefits.