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2008-05-12 22:27:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise should have stopped after his first sentence.


next.
And why is that?  Am I wrong about that?  Am I wrong that most politicians who bring it up are adulterers?

Look, obviously ATG's mentioning of this topic has a different motivation, but after the 90s overload on "family values" bullshit, I really have no choice but to put it in its place these days.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing the virtues of Newt Gingrich and his family values of ditching his terminally ill ex-wife, right?
Most of them? Yes you are wrong..  I think you pick a few stories up on the news and assume that is the standard. And you suggest ATG is brainwashed and drinking koolaide? Pot-Kettle Black.
No, I know the standard is that the average bastard that desires public office is usually either a megalomaniac, a corporate whore, or a combination of the two.  That's not brainwashed, that's reality.  So to have these same people with their mountains of skeletons in their closets to make self-righteous statements about the nature of the family in this country is a little much to stomach.

Ambrose Bierce once described politics best: "A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."
2008-05-12 22:32:08
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN
I think the nuclear family is not a myth as well.  The family that consists of a Father and a Mother that are devoted to raising a good family have the best chance of raising good kids.  Don't get started on what a good kid is.

The reason marriages don't last as long is people feel they just get out when things go bad.  You think things didn't go bad in the "old days"?
Husbands and Wives need to remember that marriage is not always cake and ice cream.  You work as a team and get through it.  Most marriages fail because people are too selfish to make it work. 

Even more frigthening to me is the lack of responsabilty parents seem to feel for how their children turn out.  They forget that when you have a child, their own needs take a backseat to their childs needs.  This does not mean babying and coddling them through life.  Teach them to be responsable people and the world may turn out different.

I could write more, but I start to foam at the mouth when on this subject.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-05-12 22:34:43
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

LividBovine wrote:

Even more frigthening to me is the lack of responsabilty parents seem to feel for how their children turn out.  They forget that when you have a child, their own needs take a backseat to their childs needs.  This does not mean babying and coddling them through life.  Teach them to be responsable people and the world may turn out different.
I think this the key element here.
2008-05-12 22:35:33
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6614|New Haven, CT
Which is why teenage pregnancies are fail in more ways than just disrupting the lives of the two stupid kids who cause them.
2008-05-12 22:36:04
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

And why is that?  Am I wrong about that?  Am I wrong that most politicians who bring it up are adulterers?

Look, obviously ATG's mentioning of this topic has a different motivation, but after the 90s overload on "family values" bullshit, I really have no choice but to put it in its place these days.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing the virtues of Newt Gingrich and his family values of ditching his terminally ill ex-wife, right?
Most of them? Yes you are wrong..  I think you pick a few stories up on the news and assume that is the standard. And you suggest ATG is brainwashed and drinking koolaide? Pot-Kettle Black.
No, I know the standard is that the average bastard that desires public office is usually either a megalomaniac, a corporate whore, or a combination of the two.  That's not brainwashed, that's reality.  So to have these same people with their mountains of skeletons in their closets to make self-righteous statements about the nature of the family in this country is a little much to stomach.

Ambrose Bierce once described politics best: "A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."
I think it's a case of the guys at the top making it seem like that. A few in the minority can screw up the image up for the majority. Like the middle eastern terrorist does for his brethren. I can not accept generalizing with statistical data. It's my cross to bear..lol.

I also think the popular idea of "screw all politicians" makes the complexities of life look simpler than what they are. That's why those presumptions have historically been so popular.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:36:20
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

nukchebi0 wrote:

Which is why teenage pregnancies are fail in more ways than just disrupting the lives of the two stupid kids who cause them.
That's what the pill and abortions are for.
2008-05-12 22:37:35
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN

nukchebi0 wrote:

Which is why teenage pregnancies are fail in more ways than just disrupting the lives of the two stupid kids who cause them.
They should put the child up for adoption.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-05-12 22:40:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Most of them? Yes you are wrong..  I think you pick a few stories up on the news and assume that is the standard. And you suggest ATG is brainwashed and drinking koolaide? Pot-Kettle Black.
No, I know the standard is that the average bastard that desires public office is usually either a megalomaniac, a corporate whore, or a combination of the two.  That's not brainwashed, that's reality.  So to have these same people with their mountains of skeletons in their closets to make self-righteous statements about the nature of the family in this country is a little much to stomach.

Ambrose Bierce once described politics best: "A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."
I think it's a case of the guys at the top making it seem like that. A few in the minority can screw up the image up for the majority. Like the middle eastern terrorist does for his brethren. I can not accept generalizing with statistical data. It's my cross to bear..lol.

I think the popular idea of "screw all politicians" makes the complexities of life look simpler than what they are. That's why those presumptions have historically been so popular.
I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think it's very useful for governments to get preachy about family.  It's mostly just empty rhetoric, and both sides are guilty of it, because the sheepish public buys into it.

ATG is addressing a problem our society has, but I don't like how the family values angle typically slides into territory where it restricts the rights of people like homosexuals.

I'm all for preventing teen pregnancy and divorces through addressing root causes, but I'd also like the government to mostly stay out of it.
2008-05-12 22:45:07
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Well, if it's too the point where the government has to tell people how to be a family and what it means then it has already gone to far. These are not things the government can force upon it's population. Whether or not it's hypocritical.. I could give a crap. It goes back to the point of having parents as a role model.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:46:31
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN

Turquoise wrote:

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think it's very useful for governments to get preachy about family.  It's mostly just empty rhetoric, and both sides are guilty of it, because the sheepish public buys into it.

ATG is addressing a problem our society has, but I don't like how the family values angle typically slides into territory where it restricts the rights of people like homosexuals.

I'm all for preventing teen pregnancy and divorces through addressing root causes, but I'd also like the government to mostly stay out of it.
The officials are trying to get votes, they won't stay out of it because they are trying to play to the do good side of everyone.

It is not government telling us how to be a family, but the politicians, who are generally more morally flexible, that are saying they are for family values and they are promoting that in their campaign.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-05-12 22:47:59
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Well, if it's too the point where the government has to tell people how to be a family and what it means than it has already gone to far. These are not things the government can force upon it's population. Whether or not it's hypocritical.. I could give a crap. It goes back to the point of having parents as a role model.
You said it yourself then...  Either we're ok, and the government needs to STFU about it, or we're past the point of it being helped, and the government still needs to STFU.

There are far more important things the government could address than whether or not little Timmy has both a mother and a father.
2008-05-12 22:49:22
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6614|New Haven, CT

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Well, if it's too the point where the government has to tell people how to be a family and what it means than it has already gone to far. These are not things the government can force upon it's population. Whether or not it's hypocritical.. I could give a crap. It goes back to the point of having parents as a role model.
You said it yourself then...  Either we're ok, and the government needs to STFU about it, or we're past the point of it being helped, and the government still needs to STFU.

There are far more important things the government could address than whether or not little Timmy has both a mother and a father.
Like whether of not little Timmy has to fear gangs of illegal immigrants on the way home from school...

I jest, don't turn this into an illegal immigration debate.
2008-05-12 22:49:51
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina
I totally agree, nuke.
2008-05-12 22:50:07
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

Turquoise wrote:

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think it's very useful for governments to get preachy about family.  It's mostly just empty rhetoric, and both sides are guilty of it, because the sheepish public buys into it.

ATG is addressing a problem our society has, but I don't like how the family values angle typically slides into territory where it restricts the rights of people like homosexuals.

I'm all for preventing teen pregnancy and divorces through addressing root causes, but I'd also like the government to mostly stay out of it.
I disagree...in that maybe the answer is the government needs to actively address making the public comfortable with these so-called non-traditional families.  Call it sensitivity training, whatever.

If the bastard kiddos are causing problems because they feel ostricized in society, maybe society needs to mature...not the other way around.

Wasn't the old cheer "We're here, we're queer, get use to it"?
2008-05-12 22:51:18
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Well, if it's too the point where the government has to tell people how to be a family and what it means than it has already gone to far. These are not things the government can force upon it's population. Whether or not it's hypocritical.. I could give a crap. It goes back to the point of having parents as a role model.
You said it yourself then...  Either we're ok, and the government needs to STFU about it, or we're past the point of it being helped, and the government still needs to STFU.

There are far more important things the government could address than whether or not little Timmy has both a mother and a father.
You do know how I feel about the role of government right?..lol

bastard.. you made me miss Phil Hendrie's first hour.

Listen with me.. http://www.wbzt.com/pages/streaming.html .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:53:12
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina
First off, Kmarion, I knew we'd agree on that...  lol

Pug wrote:

I disagree...in that maybe the answer is the government needs to actively address making the public comfortable with these so-called non-traditional families.  Call it sensitivity training, whatever.

If the bastard kiddos are causing problems because they feel ostricized in society, maybe society needs to mature...not the other way around.

Wasn't the old cheer "We're here, we're queer, get use to it"?
In principle, I agree, but good luck pitching that to the evangelicals.  Some of them seem convinced that the solution is to "cure" homosexuality through faith.
2008-05-12 22:54:41
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

Turquoise wrote:

First off, Kmarion, I knew we'd agree on that...  lol

Pug wrote:

I disagree...in that maybe the answer is the government needs to actively address making the public comfortable with these so-called non-traditional families.  Call it sensitivity training, whatever.

If the bastard kiddos are causing problems because they feel ostricized in society, maybe society needs to mature...not the other way around.

Wasn't the old cheer "We're here, we're queer, get use to it"?
In principle, I agree, but good luck pitching that to the evangelicals.  Some of them seem convinced that the solution is to "cure" homosexuality through faith.
Hey I'm a dreamer, not a problem solver.
2008-05-12 23:15:45
liquix
Member
+51|6744|Peoples Republic of Portland
the model family? since when were just one woman to one man the norm in a non christian culture?
2008-05-12 23:47:50
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7058
Amen
2008-05-13 00:09:32
PureFodder
Member
+225|6576
So.... does this mean people are in favour of ratcheting up welfare for single parents so that at least kids can get the most out of the parent they do have? In fact, the link between poverty and how kids turn out is so strong that if you're worried about society collapsing, mass increases in welfare spending seems to be the way forward.

Personally I see nuclear war and global warming as just a little more important than family values.
2008-05-13 00:09:32
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7100|Nårvei

What would the consequences be for a family if they stuck together no matter what, would that make the statistics look better or worse ?

I agree that a family with a mother and a father that both loves their children and eachother is the best solution but then again keeping that utopia alive for all families is not possible, a breakup may often be the very best solution for a family and tbh often improve family relations and the statistics ...

Poor morale and egoism is a product of poor government, you can't solely blame that on lack of faith in God or families breaking up ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-05-13 00:11:12
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN
Kids need parents that teach them to be good citizens.  Single parent families have a lower chance of producing good kids, that is a fact.

I don't care if a family is Liberal or Conservative, as long as they are taking responsibility for the proper upbringing of their children.

I would like to see the traditional 2 parent family be an expectation in our society.  Why, percentages, and the experiences I have had with kids from all types of families.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-05-13 00:17:30
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN

Varegg wrote:

What would the consequences be for a family if they stuck together no matter what, would that make the statistics look better or worse ?

I agree that a family with a mother and a father that both loves their children and eachother is the best solution but then again keeping that utopia alive for all families is not possible, a breakup may often be the very best solution for a family and tbh often improve family relations and the statistics ...
It may not always be the best option, but people seem to think that they are free to just give up now.  As much as many people here like to bash religion, at least Christians push for a strong family unit and try to give the needed support to make them work. 

Couples need to learn to work things out, not give up.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2008-05-13 00:22:32
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7100|Nårvei

LividBovine wrote:

Varegg wrote:

What would the consequences be for a family if they stuck together no matter what, would that make the statistics look better or worse ?

I agree that a family with a mother and a father that both loves their children and eachother is the best solution but then again keeping that utopia alive for all families is not possible, a breakup may often be the very best solution for a family and tbh often improve family relations and the statistics ...
It may not always be the best option, but people seem to think that they are free to just give up now.  As much as many people here like to bash religion, at least Christians push for a strong family unit and try to give the needed support to make them work. 

Couples need to learn to work things out, not give up.
I don't think they really give it up that easily ... one problem could be some becoming a couple to easily without thinking it through, i think there are many reasons for a family to break up but very few good ones to keep it together just for the sake of the fasade ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-05-13 00:32:19
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6670|MN

Varegg wrote:

I don't think they really give it up that easily ... one problem could be some becoming a couple to easily without thinking it through, i think there are many reasons for a family to break up but very few good ones to keep it together just for the sake of the fasade ...
So we need to not encourage so many people get married.

I actually think we need to teach people that marriage is serious business.  When you choose to get married, it should a well informed well thought out decision.  Don't you think society should put more pressure on people to make sure things are sorted out in advance instead of having so many failed marriages?  No I don't mean living together to see how things go.  This causes more failed marriages as well.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)

 

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