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2008-05-12 20:46:30
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6820|Global Command
What is really going to destroy us all is the loss of family values.

Most all of the other scare factors; global warming, nuclear war, economic decline are bad. But they may be survivable.

Generations of children being raised in non-nuclear families and all the associated societal ills will come to be a bigger problem, I mean assuming we are all not dead or washing our clothes in a ditch.

Young boys raised without a father are more likely to become criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics, homosexuals and child molesters. Boys who never get to experience the nuclear family may be prone to lack of emotional development. Tens of millions of abandoned and orphaned children in Latin America provide a sea of desensitized, angry people waiting for the right flame to light the fuse. Children in America and elsewhere raised in this environment find it harder to love, be respectful and learn the value of honest work. Young boys are genetically programmed to want to be just like dad, and when that influence is corrupt, or absent, the cycle is primed to repeat as these children don't learn to honor their commitments when they knock a girl up, ( " My dad left me and I did just fine. " ) or become violent trying to sooth some pain they don't understand.

The amount of literature devoted to devaluing the nuclear family is daunting. You, my fellow gamers; know that the greatest threat to our civilization is the destruction of the traditional family.

They, the media and press, have succeeded making it trendy to disbelieve in God. Do not let them make it trendy to abandon your children.

http://www.cordweekly.com/cordweekly/my … ews_id=909
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magaz … ering.html
http://www.singlemothersbychoice.com/
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/12 … rce_ra.php
2008-05-12 20:51:50
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina
Ah...  more Operation Chaos, eh?  Since when did you drink the evangelical koolaid?
2008-05-12 20:59:07
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6820|Global Command

Turquoise wrote:

Ah...  more Operation Chaos, eh?  Since when did you drink the evangelical koolaid?
I'm speaking of the nuclear family. My comment about God was from the point of view of an observer of society.


Do you disagree?
2008-05-12 21:00:37
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7058
Devaluing the nuclear family is daunting is going to do more damage than a nuclear war?

This post just looks like religious tripe...take it elsewhere churchy.
2008-05-12 21:11:24
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6614|New Haven, CT
Wow, I think you are reading into this a little too seriously, and doing a great job of uncovering your own biases in the process. He is simply trying to say that as a general trend, kids raised poorly are worse adults, and if this is a society wide occurrence, this naturally could lead to a degradation of society. Don't let the word "God" color your perception of the entire post.
2008-05-12 21:13:38
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6828|Long Island, New York
How long have people been saying this before, ATG? The mothers of the 50's and 60's said Rock N' Roll would destroy America...and we're still here.

We'll be fine.
2008-05-12 21:17:46
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6820|Global Command

BN wrote:

Devaluing the nuclear family is daunting is going to do more damage than a nuclear war?

This post just looks like religious tripe...take it elsewhere churchy.
http://paganblues.com/]My website.

The name Pagan Blues. The concept. The philosophy. All the sort of evil looking runes  on the site, the album art, all my ideas.

Hardy the muse of a ' churchy '.


But I forgive you, for you may be one of the unfortunate who, having read the post got offended because they were raised in a non nuclear family.

I was. My parents divorced. I believe my position is irrefutable, but I'm interested to hear you explain how it is as good or better to be raised in a broken home.

Last edited by ATG (2008-05-12 21:19:22)

2008-05-12 21:23:25
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6828|Long Island, New York

ATG wrote:

BN wrote:

Devaluing the nuclear family is daunting is going to do more damage than a nuclear war?

This post just looks like religious tripe...take it elsewhere churchy.
http://paganblues.com/]My website.

The name Pagan Blues. The concept. The philosophy. All the sort of evil looking runes  on the site, the album art, all my ideas.

Hardy the muse of a ' churchy '.


But I forgive you, for you may be one of the unfortunate who, having read the post got offended because they were raised in a non nuclear family.

I was. My parents divorced. I believe my position is irrefutable, but I'm interested to hear you explain how it is as good or better to be raised in a broken home.
YOU describe it as a "broken home". I'm living with my mom and brother and my parents are divorced, and I'm pretty happy. We're making out for ourselves, and we do okay. I've had morals instilled into me by my mother and I see that all well almost every day. Certainly a lot better than the dickheads in my school that I see harrassing people and being disrespectful to teachers, adults, etc. And most of them come from, as you define, "non-broken families". If it wasn't for the morals instilled in me, I wouldn't be the person I was today.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that just because someone is from a Beaver and Wally Cleaver-esque home that they'll be "raised better".

Last edited by Poseidon (2008-05-12 21:24:00)

2008-05-12 21:31:14
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6820|Global Command
I know.

But it's true that those raised with out their fathers are statistically more prone to get in trouble.
2008-05-12 21:32:46
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6828|Long Island, New York

ATG wrote:

I know.

But it's true that those raised with out their fathers are statistically more prone to get in trouble.
Do you have statistical proof of this? Or are you just going off of personal experience? In which case I'm sorry ATG, but just because you go through it doesn't mean everyone's going to or that the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
2008-05-12 21:41:13
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6820|Global Command

Poseidon wrote:

ATG wrote:

I know.

But it's true that those raised with out their fathers are statistically more prone to get in trouble.
Do you have statistical proof of this? Or are you just going off of personal experience? In which case I'm sorry ATG, but just because you go through it doesn't mean everyone's going to or that the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
Easy:
http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/stats.php


    * 5 times more likely to commit suicide
    * 32 times more likely to run away
    * 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
    * 14 times more likely to commit rape
    * 9 times more likely to drop out of school
    * 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
    * 9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution
    * 20 times more likely to end up in prison
2008-05-12 21:47:08
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Poseidon wrote:

ATG wrote:

I know.

But it's true that those raised with out their fathers are statistically more prone to get in trouble.
Do you have statistical proof of this? Or are you just going off of personal experience? In which case I'm sorry ATG, but just because you go through it doesn't mean everyone's going to or that the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
Have at it. http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/Research/index.shtml
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 21:48:31
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6828|Long Island, New York

ATG wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

ATG wrote:

I know.

But it's true that those raised with out their fathers are statistically more prone to get in trouble.
Do you have statistical proof of this? Or are you just going off of personal experience? In which case I'm sorry ATG, but just because you go through it doesn't mean everyone's going to or that the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
Easy:
http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/stats.php


    * 5 times more likely to commit suicide
    * 32 times more likely to run away
    * 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
    * 14 times more likely to commit rape
    * 9 times more likely to drop out of school
    * 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
    * 9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution
    * 20 times more likely to end up in prison
Mmm. Well, thanks for the stats...but that simply does not prove to me that just because more and more families are getting divorced and kids are living under fatherless homes means that they're "broken". If you go by a person-to-person basis, you may be surprised.

Last edited by Poseidon (2008-05-12 21:59:52)

2008-05-12 21:51:25
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|6996
The reason that people are diagreeing with your post, ATG, is that, right now, western civilization is casting off all of the old ideas, institutions and traditions that have been an intrinsic part of society for the past 3000+ years.  This temporary reaction against tradition is simply another ephemeral movement, a reaction against established ideas, much like the many movements before it.  I agree with you that it is damaging, but it is just another case where people are "pushing the envelope", so to speak.  The root of all this change comes with the bursts of rapid scientific progress, and subsequently, new philosophical ideas.  Thanks to the theory of relativity and the destruction of religion, people no longer look at things as being "right" or "wrong", "evil" or "good".  Everything is relative.  This allows for people to come up with their own ideas of what should be right and wrong.  Scientific neutrality and inductive reasoning are necessary to discover scientific truths, and these principles are now being applied to society.  Eventually, everyone will realize that stable marriage between a man and a woman is the best basis for a family and things will be as they alway were. 

Jesus I really went off on that!  I'm sorry.  I've just been contemplating the changes in what people consider the "nuclear family" for a couple of days now.  I've been considering gay parents, single parents, adoptions  and everything inbetween. My whole post was wayyyy off topic.

Last edited by Deadmonkiefart (2008-05-12 21:52:12)

2008-05-12 21:53:59
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6781|Northern California
Join the Mormons!  We are the family builders!  We know the secret to whirled peas.... A loving, strong family!  Check out these videos!

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-05-12 21:54:41)

2008-05-12 21:55:52
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Deadmonkiefart could have summed it up by telling ATG his ideas just aren't hip anymore..lol. Who needs parental guidance anyways? Send in the super-nannies!.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:00:44
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ah...  more Operation Chaos, eh?  Since when did you drink the evangelical koolaid?
I'm speaking of the nuclear family. My comment about God was from the point of view of an observer of society.


Do you disagree?
Look, I agree that having a mother figure and a father figure in a family is optimal, but I just get sick of these family values tirades.  Most of the time, when a politician brings up this stuff, they're usually trying to compensate for the interns or secretaries they're sleeping with.

The point is, while having a traditional nuclear family is good, its decline isn't a sign of the end times (as Poseidon pointed out).
2008-05-12 22:02:13
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Turquoise should have stopped after his first sentence.


next.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:06:19
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6832|Texas - Bigger than France
I wonder how much of this is due to the shattered dreams of the parents being instilled into their kids.
2008-05-12 22:06:22
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise should have stopped after his first sentence.


next.
And why is that?  Am I wrong about that?  Am I wrong that most politicians who bring it up are adulterers?

Look, obviously ATG's mentioning of this topic has a different motivation, but after the 90s overload on "family values" bullshit, I really have no choice but to put it in its place these days.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing the virtues of Newt Gingrich and his family values of ditching his terminally ill ex-wife, right?
2008-05-12 22:07:26
liquix
Member
+51|6744|Peoples Republic of Portland
nature vs nurture is a battle you cannot win ATG. Although the family values line has always been pushed, it has yet to win and that won't change because it comes down to individuality. There are always those who wish for a return of the good old days, and those who look to the future and seek something different. The nuclear family, cough republican christian, cough, has not been good to the alternative among us. The "perfect" society does not exist, it is always changing.

The modern world changes very quickly, and most of us are struggling to catch up. Sometimes, it leaves us behind and all you can do is wish that it was the way it used to be.

The nuclear family idea is a myth, it was great if you were white middle class in the "good old days," but not if you weren't. Everybody keeps wishing that you can have just that one person to love for your entire life, sadly as we discovered this is not the case for most people. The destruction comes from the horrible process of divorce on everybody involved.

Getting married is a gamble, and you get shitty odds. Sure people used to stay married longer, but that was before women could easily work. If you can't survive alone, then sure your going to gut it out even when your unhappy. Another thing that I have no statistics for at the moment, is that monogamy is not the most common form of marriage type relationships, rather, one man and many women seems to be the most common.

blah, thats what I get for writing after a five hour marketing meeting on top of a full day.
2008-05-12 22:12:41
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6832|Texas - Bigger than France

liquix wrote:

nature vs nurture is a battle you cannot win ATG. Although the family values line has always been pushed, it has yet to win and that won't change because it comes down to individuality. There are always those who wish for a return of the good old days, and those who look to the future and seek something different. The nuclear family, cough republican christian, cough, has not been good to the alternative among us. The "perfect" society does not exist, it is always changing.

The modern world changes very quickly, and most of us are struggling to catch up. Sometimes, it leaves us behind and all you can do is wish that it was the way it used to be.

The nuclear family idea is a myth, it was great if you were white middle class in the "good old days," but not if you weren't. Everybody keeps wishing that you can have just that one person to love for your entire life, sadly as we discovered this is not the case for most people. The destruction comes from the horrible process of divorce on everybody involved.

Getting married is a gamble, and you get shitty odds. Sure people used to stay married longer, but that was before women could easily work. If you can't survive alone, then sure your going to gut it out even when your unhappy. Another thing that I have no statistics for at the moment, is that monogamy is not the most common form of marriage type relationships, rather, one man and many women seems to be the most common.

blah, thats what I get for writing after a five hour marketing meeting on top of a full day.
But are nuclear families more happy then others?  Is there a correlation between happy kids and a happy family?  Are happy kids more prone to some of the problems noted here?

I think there is, although I don't think it's going to rip us to shreds (at least until all the hollywood adopted asians rise up and kill us all with their lasers).
2008-05-12 22:14:22
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6891|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise should have stopped after his first sentence.


next.
And why is that?  Am I wrong about that?  Am I wrong that most politicians who bring it up are adulterers?

Look, obviously ATG's mentioning of this topic has a different motivation, but after the 90s overload on "family values" bullshit, I really have no choice but to put it in its place these days.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing the virtues of Newt Gingrich and his family values of ditching his terminally ill ex-wife, right?
Most of them? Yes you are wrong..  I think you pick a few stories up on the news and assume that is the standard. And you suggest ATG is brainwashed and drinking koolaide? Pot-Kettle Black.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-12 22:15:07
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6871|the dank(super) side of Oregon
looks like someone's watched Fight Club.



The "nuclear family" is a fantasy.  It's about good parenting, not the number of parents.  Bad mothers and fathers don't make good kids or adults, no matter their marital status.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2008-05-12 22:37:26)

2008-05-12 22:20:40
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|6996

liquix wrote:

nature vs nurture is a battle you cannot win ATG. Although the family values line has always been pushed, it has yet to win and that won't change because it comes down to individuality. There are always those who wish for a return of the good old days, and those who look to the future and seek something different. The nuclear family, cough republican christian, cough, has not been good to the alternative among us. The "perfect" society does not exist, it is always changing.

The modern world changes very quickly, and most of us are struggling to catch up. Sometimes, it leaves us behind and all you can do is wish that it was the way it used to be.

The nuclear family idea is a myth, it was great if you were white middle class in the "good old days," but not if you weren't. Everybody keeps wishing that you can have just that one person to love for your entire life, sadly as we discovered this is not the case for most people. The destruction comes from the horrible process of divorce on everybody involved.

Getting married is a gamble, and you get shitty odds. Sure people used to stay married longer, but that was before women could easily work. If you can't survive alone, then sure your going to gut it out even when your unhappy. Another thing that I have no statistics for at the moment, is that monogamy is not the most common form of marriage type relationships, rather, one man and many women seems to be the most common.

blah, thats what I get for writing after a five hour marketing meeting on top of a full day.
A myth?  LOL?  The model of a family for the past 10,000+ years is now a myth?

 

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