Poll

Should higher education serve to specialize or generalize?

Specialize - Exceptional people are always needed84%84% - 33
Generalize - be well rounded and you have a wider pool15%15% - 6
Total: 39
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6950|Portland, OR USA
Question says it all really.  I say specialized.  You are responsible for your own education.  You are presented with more than enough rounding at the grade school and high school level to function at a high level in society.  Higher education should serve to hone specific skill sets, not round out facets of education entirely useless or at the most highly abstract to your desired profession.

Example - I went to study engineering.  Why do I need to take humanities courses?  I am not there to be anything but an engineer.  I was presented with the basics in high school as is every student.  It's federally mandated.  Similarly, what use does a writer or psychologist have for advanced math or science?  Would either of these be of interest to the engineer or the psychologist respectively?  Maybe - but that's not the point of a core curriculum.  Allow a limited number of free electives if you must, but don't integrate it into core curriculum.  As I said in the thread which prompted me to have this rant - celebrate your differences, not our similarities.
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6337|Glendale, CA
I agree, it's fucking annoying to have to jump through all the hoops.  I have to do chemistry which is hard, and I want to be either a game designer, a writer, or something, not a CHEMIST or a damn lab assistant.  I say high school and the like should be more specialized, while elementary and maybe middle school deals with general things like math, spelling, and so on.

It's so annoying to have to deal with all the stuff like atomic statistics or some other bullshit like that.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7072

Specialise, hence why I think the European university system is better than the US. Don't get me wrong you've got great schools, but I went to high school to learn irrelevant stuff, I'd rather spend the whole time of my degree learning things relevant to it.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7044|London, England
I went to study engineering.  Why do I need to take humanities courses?
Is that how it is over in the U.S? Wow... (you are talking about University right?)

Primary School, High School = Generalise

Sixth Form/College = Slightly Specialise, but still pretty General

University = that's your career edu-ma-cation bitch. All distractions come in the form of booze, drugs and women. Not other classes which don't make sense.

Last edited by Mek-Izzle (2008-04-03 13:15:08)

jord
Member
+2,382|7101|The North, beyond the wall.

Mek-Izzle wrote:

I went to study engineering.  Why do I need to take humanities courses?
Is that how it is over in the U.S? Wow... (you are talking about University right?)
I would assume higher education means optional education. As in Uni.
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6950|Portland, OR USA

Mek-Izzle wrote:

I went to study engineering.  Why do I need to take humanities courses?
Is that how it is over in the U.S? Wow... (you are talking about University right?)
Yes, it is and yes, I am.  Moreover my credit of Sociology (the study of human society) did not qualify for a further requisite "humanities" course.  I had to take anthropology.  Yet another waste of time for my major.

I'm not arguing that these courses do indeed serve to round out an individual or could be of interest.  But I'm paying for a specific degree, a specific specification, not a gen ed degree.  Why am I forced to waste money on such things?

Last edited by PuckMercury (2008-04-03 12:57:00)

SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

PuckMercury wrote:

Question says it all really.  I say specialized.  You are responsible for your own education.  You are presented with more than enough rounding at the grade school and high school level to function at a high level in society.  Higher education should serve to hone specific skill sets, not round out facets of education entirely useless or at the most highly abstract to your desired profession.

Example - I went to study engineering.  Why do I need to take humanities courses?  I am not there to be anything but an engineer.  I was presented with the basics in high school as is every student.  It's federally mandated.  Similarly, what use does a writer or psychologist have for advanced math or science?  Would either of these be of interest to the engineer or the psychologist respectively?  Maybe - but that's not the point of a core curriculum.  Allow a limited number of free electives if you must, but don't integrate it into core curriculum.  As I said in the thread which prompted me to have this rant - celebrate your differences, not our similarities.
I was able to specialize in physics and math in undergrad.  I had to take minimal amounts of courses outside of that.  But then again, I minored in history, so I didn't see much of a problem taking those classes...  If you want to truly specialize, you go to grad school anyway.  There, you only take classes for that field.
Snake
Missing, Presumed Dead
+1,046|6988|England

Specialise. I work for an engineering company, purely structural steelwork. I go to university part time to get a degree (in "civil engineering", not "structural"...as there is no course for that: its all combined into one). Im not interested in highways, transport or any of that shit. Same with concrete, timber and masonry, but it is good to have that knowledge for details of concrete/timber/masonry buildups.
Fortunatly, a lot of the course is structures based, but I have friends there on the same course who do transport/highways for a living, and none of it bears any resemblance to them (one of which doesnt care or have any interest in them either): other than that bit of paper saying you have a degree.

It needs to be specialised, but then you would have select universities up and down the country, and Id rather not have to travel that kind of distance, if said university was a 3hour drive. For full timers, great. But for apprenticeships (especially in the construction industry), where you get day-release, it just cant work.

Last edited by Snake (2008-04-03 13:03:41)

SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

PuckMercury wrote:

Yes, it is and yes, I am.  Moreover my credit of Sociology (the study of human society) did not qualify for a further requisite "humanities" course.  I had to take anthropology.  Yet another waste of time for my major.

I'm not arguing that these courses do indeed serve to round out an individual or could be of interest.  But I'm paying for a specific degree, a specific specification, not a gen ed degree.  Why am I forced to waste money on such things?
The way my university ran things, engineering students had fewer gen-ed requirements to fulfill out of respect for their increased core course load.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7054|949

What if you drop out of high school but still want to attend college?  Perhaps you never took the core curriculum if that was the case.

I don't have a problem with Gen Ed requirements at all - it's basically breezing by the first two years of a 4-year degree as you become accustomed to the college life.  Plus, if you want to change majors (as a good chunk of people do, well into their second year) you still have a good foundation of general ed.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6973|CH/BR - in UK

Specialize. It's the primary reason why I stayed here in the UK.

-konfusion
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

FallenMorgan wrote:

I agree, it's fucking annoying to have to jump through all the hoops.  I have to do chemistry which is hard, and I want to be either a game designer, a writer, or something, not a CHEMIST or a damn lab assistant.  I say high school and the like should be more specialized, while elementary and maybe middle school deals with general things like math, spelling, and so on.

It's so annoying to have to deal with all the stuff like atomic statistics or some other bullshit like that.
If you think that high school level chemistry will prepare you for a chemist of lab assistant position, then you are delusional.  High school is meant for general education, which includes very (and I stress very) basic chemistry.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

What if you drop out of high school but still want to attend college?  Perhaps you never took the core curriculum if that was the case.

I don't have a problem with Gen Ed requirements at all - it's basically breezing by the first two years of a 4-year degree as you become accustomed to the college life.  Plus, if you want to change majors (as a good chunk of people do, well into their second year) you still have a good foundation of general ed.
That's very true.  You can't just jump into advanced courses right off the bat, so you will have have extra room in your schedule in the first year or two.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2008-04-03 13:06:55)

CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6780|CA, USA
Puck,

i sympathize with you in not wanting to take all those BS classes like poly sci or anthropology to round out those general ed requirements for the degree.  i was forced to take economics, poly sci, and anthro in school - hated each class because i could not apply any of it.  later, i was able to choose some of the classes i could take that were non-technical.  one that i took was a history and philosophy of science class on Einstein's theories.  we didn't do any of the equations that i solved in my quantum mechanics class - it was more just talking about the implications of the theories.  so in that sense i don't consider it really technical.  but wow!  totally cool.  You can choose to use these classes to round out 'interests' that maybe you never knew you had also.  take a photography class - or film.  you can learn how to use adobe products and make some home movies - pad your GPA!  these skills don't go away either and believe it or not you could use some of them at work depending on the circumstances.

personally, i run into tons of engineers who can't put together a power point presentation to save their lives.  or, if they do, it's with default white background and all text - snooooozzze.  presentation skills are actually a integral part of engineering since you have to get your design approved in most cases, you have to collaborate with many different people (of different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds).  so in that sense, even a 'working with israelis' or 'working with indians' might come in handy.  often times we throw around idioms in every day speech that people from other countries don't get or worse, take offensively.  deductive reasoning skills are also an important factor in getting your point across.  debate is another important skill.  these practical skills are probably what i would want to broaden upon since you'd be hard pressed to find practice for these in your vector calculus or fluid flow dynamics classes.  but...we use them every day - even outside of work. 

one last bit.  i think that schools should require a life skill class that would cover balancing a checkbook, how stocks work, what is retirement savings, how credit cards work, how to buy and sell a home, etc.  i guess this is personal finance.  i had to learn all through my 20s and now into my 30s the hard way.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6952|Global Command
If school had been specialized, it may have kept my interest.

It wasn't, and it didn't.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6923|so randum
Specialised.

I do geography, and i'm pretty fucking good at it.

But why the fuck do i have to do General Studies, and General R.E?


Last year i managed to get out of going to any G.S and G.Re lessons, and i got >95% on both A-Levels in them.



So why the mother-fuck do i have to go this year? It's not like any decent uni accepts them as creditable A-levels either.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6941|USA
interesting points and thus far a consensus poll, but even if the intention should be to specialize students, i feel value is still gained from 'general' classes.

tbh, i've learned more about life from classes i didn't want to take (generals) than those of which i have interest.  i'm talking skills like time-management, discipline, persistence, and a "first time, every time" mentality [doing things right the first time].  yes, some of these skills are learned by taking classes of interest too... but how much so is debatable.

->apples and oranges, maybe; but i feel that general classes hold value from a non-educational perspective.

Last edited by CoronadoSEAL (2008-04-03 15:53:44)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7188|Cambridge (UK)
Null Vote.

Higher Education, in fact all education, should offer both routes.

Specialization for the specialists.
Generalization for the generalists.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6828|North Carolina
Generalized = waiting tables and working for temp agencies

Specialized = mucho money

Specialized FTW
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6950|Portland, OR USA

CoronadoSEAL wrote:

->apples and oranges, maybe; but i feel that general classes hold value from a non-educational perspective.
No arguement whatsoever.  I'm not saying the courses are useless or without merit.  What I am saying is that they have no place as required material in a post-high school curriculum.  I pay for post high school education.  I should not be mandated to take courses irrelivant to my actual major.  I fully recognize and appreciate the nuances of all fields of learning, but that isn't to say I want to delve into them or be a part of them myself.  I love computers, I fully respect and appreciate what goes into creating a good and solid program.  I use computers and design/build them.  Do I want to program?  Hell no.  That is not because it is above or beneath me, it's just not for me.  I will leave that to those better suited and qualified for such things and they will have my appreciation.

If you dropped out of high school and lack the requisite gen ed requirements, integrate them into your personal learning plan.  That's a simple solution.  Institute a placement exam to assess gen ed levels even.  Just don't make me plow through and PAY for these courses which may make me a "more rounded person" but have no relevance to the degree I seek to obtain.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6869|Chicago, IL
Specialize, Roman Mythology 131 isn't going to make a better engineer.
GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6537|Tampa, Florida
Specialized, teaching a trade rather than a wide blanket of basics is extremely important. You do need a good basic education but this should end at the end of your freshman year in high school. From there on out kids should specialize in something. This is my number one problem with public education.

Generalizing education wastes tax payer money and teaches to the middle of the road students. Higher level students don't thrive and lower students struggle to understand.
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6384|Washington DC

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

one last bit.  i think that schools should require a life skill class that would cover balancing a checkbook, how stocks work, what is retirement savings, how credit cards work, how to buy and sell a home, etc.  i guess this is personal finance.  i had to learn all through my 20s and now into my 30s the hard way.
Fuck yes. That's a far far FAR more god damned useful skill than analyzing books.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7054|949

GorillaKing798 wrote:

Specialized, teaching a trade rather than a wide blanket of basics is extremely important. You do need a good basic education but this should end at the end of your freshman year in high school. From there on out kids should specialize in something. This is my number one problem with public education.

Generalizing education wastes tax payer money and teaches to the middle of the road students. Higher level students don't thrive and lower students struggle to understand.
Higher education is not solely (or even 50/50) funded by taxpayer money.  Public high school level education should definitely NOT be about specialization.  For starters, I changed my major at least 3 times while in college.  The focus of high school level education should not be about getting you ready for your career, it should be about getting you ready for life - including knowing history, a command of the English language, and simple math skills.

In essence, you (Puck) are receiving a specialized education through a 4 year degree, especially a BS.  The prerequisites for your degree are listed as such - maybe you need to talk to the head of the department for your specialization and ask WHY such things as Humanities are required.  I see no need to change the myriad of general education requirements for any degree; I am happy that I was required to take the courses I had/chose to.

If you have a problem with the price of those classes, attend a junior college - all you have to do is find the courses that are transferrable to your university, and you have a cheap alternative.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7129|67.222.138.85
Immediately I would say specialize, pretty much along the same lines everyone else here does. As far as you being able to perform the technical aspects of your job aptly goes, you only need to train in your specific areas that you will be using, and it is a waste of time and money to be looking at an irrelevant subject with a professor.

but...

There is more to learning than memorization of facts and methods. Education is about learning to be a functional member in society, not just in being able to perform your job in the technical aspect, but being able to be a competent person. Communication and problem solving skills are arguably more important that the technical aspects of any job you encounter, because you can work around what you don't know and find people who do.You can really get by with a fraction of what you learn even in your specialized classes at a job, so why bother to even take all the classes that pertain to your industry, and only the ones you need for the specific job you are going to have?

A college degree means more than technical competence. (In fact I'm sure we all know in many cases, it doesn't even mean that.) It means someone has the drive to get themselves to class enough to pass, the knowledge from either intuitive learning or long hours looking at books, and a diverse set of skills from all those "useless" classes that not only provide a broader knowledge base, but just a more interesting person to work with. When a company hires someone with a college degree they know that they are getting someone who not just has the majority of the technical training they need, they are getting a problem solver, a communicator, a hard worker.

Because really, no extremely narrow subject couldn't be conquered by a bum off the street in a year or two. We don't want illegal immigrants taking over our "skilled" labor force too now do we?

GorillaKing798 wrote:

Generalizing education wastes tax payer money and teaches to the middle of the road students. Higher level students don't thrive and lower students struggle to understand.
No, higher-level students are challenged by subjects that aren't their forte, and lower students generally struggle to understand period. Especially through high school core classes should be required across the board, there should just be distinct divisions of difficulty, for example at my school there are regulars, honors, and then AP (advanced placement) classes.

Personally I'm taking an AP history course right now that is really terrible. I don't enjoy the subject at all and would rather not take the class, but it's mostly because of how poorly the class is taught. On the other hand I'm taking an AP English class, another subject that isn't my favorite, but it is taught very well, and I know I'm getting something out of it. On the flip side I'm taking an honors Physics class, (not AP because I'm not allowed to take that until after honors physics) a subject that I excel at, that is taught extremely poorly. I know I could teach the class better than the teacher, even though he is the probably the best teacher in the honors physics team. The tests are generally very poorly worded, some real life application questions aren't actually accurate, and I actually have a retard in my class. Yes that's right, there is a slightly mentally retarded person in my honors physics class.

My point is you can get something out of any class, it depends more on how the course is taught rather than the subject material itself.
GorillaKing798
Too legit to quit
+48|6537|Tampa, Florida

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

GorillaKing798 wrote:

Specialized, teaching a trade rather than a wide blanket of basics is extremely important. You do need a good basic education but this should end at the end of your freshman year in high school. From there on out kids should specialize in something. This is my number one problem with public education.

Generalizing education wastes tax payer money and teaches to the middle of the road students. Higher level students don't thrive and lower students struggle to understand.
Higher education is not solely (or even 50/50) funded by taxpayer money.  Public high school level education should definitely NOT be about specialization.  For starters, I changed my major at least 3 times while in college.  The focus of high school level education should not be about getting you ready for your career, it should be about getting you ready for life - including knowing history, a command of the English language, and simple math skills.

In essence, you (Puck) are receiving a specialized education through a 4 year degree, especially a BS.  The prerequisites for your degree are listed as such - maybe you need to talk to the head of the department for your specialization and ask WHY such things as Humanities are required.  I see no need to change the myriad of general education requirements for any degree; I am happy that I was required to take the courses I had/chose to.

If you have a problem with the price of those classes, attend a junior college - all you have to do is find the courses that are transferrable to your university, and you have a cheap alternative.
Sorry I was referring to high schools when I was saying tax payer money. Generalizing in high school is nothing but negative, as i said a basic education is extremely important but if taught efficiently, you can be done with generalizing when kids are through their freshman years. Giving kids an opportunity to learn a trade in high schools would be hugely successful, as it teaches kids who will not go through higher education a job, and those who will further follow their subject will have a great understanding of it.  Much more specializing should be done in high school. Who says you can't change interests as you do in college? switch your major in high school and learn a different trade.

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