Poll

How'd you feel if they built a Mosque in your negihborhood?

I'd be mad and I'd complain about it14%14% - 48
I wouldn't care tbh55%55% - 184
I think it would improve the neighborhood2%2% - 9
Fuck Islam27%27% - 91
Total: 332
David.P
Banned
+649|6274
Listen Poseidon. I dont know how you've came to the conclusion that you have now, I wont ask. But i will tell you this.


Islam is Hypocritical. I hate that, I really do. It disgusts me. But i dont just hate Islam but the whole 'liberal' 'leftist' 'hippie' 'blah blah' thing whatever you want to call it. I hate it mostly, Because it's fascism flying under the banner freedom or understanding. Take away peoples fault for their own actions, Initiate special race/anti-race only laws, And punish those who speak out against you. What do you have? Good ol' fashioned Fascism. It never dies, Only re-invents itself under a new name each time.

I'm an Individualist, The Left is not compatible with me, Nor is the right anymore.

Last edited by David.P (2008-03-21 22:22:05)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6651|USA

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


What's your point? Again, that one person doesn't speak for Islam as a whole.

It's funny, I've probably felt the brunt of Islamic extremism more than a lot of people here besides people like GS, USMarine, or anyone else who lives in NYC/Washington DC/PA (I lost a family friend in the WTC, and I could smell the smoke the following morning) yet I don't hate Islam. You'd think someone who was affected by Islamic extremism directly would be the most hate-mongering of all people...but I'm not.

Perhaps it's because I'm tolerant of other people? Maybe it's because I don't generalize because of the actions of a few?
Apparently one person does not speak for the whole according to you unless he of course agrees with you. IE your Mom, or the guy talking about the London bombing
...I didn't say that. You need to read my posts, lowing. It helps in discussions.

I don't think that all muslims are peaceful. I never, ever said that. I also don't think all are extremists. Those people I posted do NOT speak for Islam as a whole, they simply disprove YOUR thought that extremists speak for Islam as a whole.
I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6675|Canberra, AUS
I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
But Islam is defined as a way of life. There is no distinction between a religion and its followers; they are one and the same. The religion is somewhat fucked, but it is not totally violent and certainly not totally intolerant.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


Apparently one person does not speak for the whole according to you unless he of course agrees with you. IE your Mom, or the guy talking about the London bombing
...I didn't say that. You need to read my posts, lowing. It helps in discussions.

I don't think that all muslims are peaceful. I never, ever said that. I also don't think all are extremists. Those people I posted do NOT speak for Islam as a whole, they simply disprove YOUR thought that extremists speak for Islam as a whole.
I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
Perhaps Jack Bauer can put my feelings correctly.



PART of Islam is a violent religion. PART OF IT. Because the IRA were violent, does that mean every Irish person is?

You just pretty much admitted that you generalize based on the few, and you want to eradicate it not only from your LIFE, but from this COUNTRY.  And you wonder why I compared your ideologies to hitler?

...does anyone else feel like this discussion is going nowhere?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6651|USA

Spark wrote:

It has become clear that this has become a totally circular debate.

And I can see both points. I actually share lowing's view on one point - Islam has serious problems, and is much more predisposed to fundementalism than say, Christianity is.

However, does it make it inherently evil? IMO no. Nothing is inherently evil. In my opinion Muslims are welcome to go and worship wherever they please (as long as it is in line with common sense law)

Do the actions of a few incrimininate the many? If that were true, then there wouldn't be much left to believe in.

Now, to lowing: Do you think Islam can sort itself out? Because we can't do it for them. I know that. I think you do as well.

The fact is on current trends Islam will overtake Christianity as the world's most commonly practiced religion some time this century. Trying to stop this with bombs and bullets is pointless - instead of 2 billion fairly sedate Muslims you'll have 2 billion very pissed-off Muslims.

I don't want to be fighting against a quarter of the world.
No Islam will never be at peace until all are converted or killed, I do not believe for 1 minute that as soon as Israel is detroyed that all of a sudden peace will break out in the ME. When the Jews are eliminated Islam will simply turn its attention to someone else, mainly the west. Islam will always be at war. It always has. Keep in mind this religion has been like this long before the US came to power, so you can hardly blame the US for its problems. You can not blame Israel either, since again Islam was fucked up long before the creation of Israel. The west and Israel are simply the latest excuses for the behavior of this oppressive and intolerant religion.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6651|USA

Spark wrote:

I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
But Islam is defined as a way of life. There is no distinction between a religion and its followers; they are one and the same. The religion is somewhat fucked, but it is not totally violent and certainly not totally intolerant.
Tell that to the women of the ME. or the homosexuals of the same region
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6651|USA

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


...I didn't say that. You need to read my posts, lowing. It helps in discussions.

I don't think that all muslims are peaceful. I never, ever said that. I also don't think all are extremists. Those people I posted do NOT speak for Islam as a whole, they simply disprove YOUR thought that extremists speak for Islam as a whole.
I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
Perhaps Jack Bauer can put my feelings correctly.



PART of Islam is a violent religion. PART OF IT. Because the IRA were violent, does that mean every Irish person is?

You just pretty much admitted that you generalize based on the few, and you want to eradicate it not only from your LIFE, but from this COUNTRY.  And you wonder why I compared your ideologies to hitler?

...does anyone else feel like this discussion is going nowhere?
I never said I wanted to eradicate anyone or anything. I said I do not want it in my country let alone my nieghborhood. That is hardly an endorsement for genocide. It is simply an honest answer to a question posed in this forum
David.P
Banned
+649|6274

lowing wrote:

Spark wrote:

I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
But Islam is defined as a way of life. There is no distinction between a religion and its followers; they are one and the same. The religion is somewhat fucked, but it is not totally violent and certainly not totally intolerant.
Tell that to the women of the ME. or the homosexuals of the same region
He cant. Because well he cant.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
Perhaps Jack Bauer can put my feelings correctly.



PART of Islam is a violent religion. PART OF IT. Because the IRA were violent, does that mean every Irish person is?

You just pretty much admitted that you generalize based on the few, and you want to eradicate it not only from your LIFE, but from this COUNTRY.  And you wonder why I compared your ideologies to hitler?

...does anyone else feel like this discussion is going nowhere?
I never said I wanted to eradicate anyone or anything. I said I do not want it in my country let alone my nieghborhood. That is hardly an endorsement for genocide. It is simply an honest answer to a question posed in this forum
If you don't want it in your country, you want to get rid of it. Correct? And eradicate means to get rid of, so yes, you do want to.

It's like the book of Exodus all over again.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6675|Canberra, AUS

lowing wrote:

Spark wrote:

I am not talking about Muslims, I am talking about Islam, and ISLAM is a violent and intolerant religion. That is why I do not want it in my country
But Islam is defined as a way of life. There is no distinction between a religion and its followers; they are one and the same. The religion is somewhat fucked, but it is not totally violent and certainly not totally intolerant.
Tell that to the women of the ME. or the homosexuals of the same region
Notice the usage of the word 'totally'. There are enough women in the higher classes in Islamic countries for me to say so. Not many, but enough.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6651|USA

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


Perhaps Jack Bauer can put my feelings correctly.



PART of Islam is a violent religion. PART OF IT. Because the IRA were violent, does that mean every Irish person is?

You just pretty much admitted that you generalize based on the few, and you want to eradicate it not only from your LIFE, but from this COUNTRY.  And you wonder why I compared your ideologies to hitler?

...does anyone else feel like this discussion is going nowhere?
I never said I wanted to eradicate anyone or anything. I said I do not want it in my country let alone my nieghborhood. That is hardly an endorsement for genocide. It is simply an honest answer to a question posed in this forum
If you don't want it in your country, you want to get rid of it. Correct? And eradicate means to get rid of, so yes, you do want to.

It's like the book of Exodus all over again.
Nope, I don't want it in my country but I have no right or will to want to "eradicate it". They have as much a right to be here as anyone. I am not delussional about that. I simply do not agree with this religion and would rather it not be here.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I never said I wanted to eradicate anyone or anything. I said I do not want it in my country let alone my nieghborhood. That is hardly an endorsement for genocide. It is simply an honest answer to a question posed in this forum
If you don't want it in your country, you want to get rid of it. Correct? And eradicate means to get rid of, so yes, you do want to.

It's like the book of Exodus all over again.
Nope, I don't want it in my country but I have no right or will to want to "eradicate it". They have as much a right to be here as anyone. I am not delussional about that. I simply do not agree with this religion and would rather it not be here.
But you do "want it out", yes?
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6324|New Haven, CT

Spark wrote:

It has become clear that this has become a totally circular debate.
Can't we just apply this in a general blanket statement to any discussion involving global politics which happens in the section?
BVC
Member
+325|6695
I'll answer the topic question when churches start popping up in saudi arabia.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6324|New Haven, CT

Pubic wrote:

I'll answer the topic question when churches start popping blowing up in saudi arabia.
Fixed.























I jest.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6581|SE London

lowing wrote:

Masques wrote:

Masques wrote:

You don't have to search far to find muslim groups denouncing hateful imams or speaking out on violence. You won't find them on TV much because peaceable individuals trying to facilitate dialog don't rouse the rabble. Get a few unshaven goons screaming "Durka Durka, Mohammad, Jihad!" and you boost the ratings and the bottom line a little.
Not true, any Islamic leader that spoke out continuously and consistently about this issue would get air time. THe problem is there simply isn't any voice loud enough.
Yes, there is. They're always speaking out. You just seem not to pay attention to that fact. There is at the very least 3 or 4 broadcasts a day in the UK where well known public figures who are Muslims speak out against terrorism. Maybe they don't show them over in the US, I don't know. The more developed and forward thinking the nation, the more moderates speak out.

In any case, you are comparing countries that are at starkly different levels of development. No (or an insignificant amount of denounced by the moderate majority) anti-semetism from Christians in the US, perhaps, but look at Eastern and Central Europe - then tell me there are no Christian anti-semites with no local moderate majority to keep them in check. You are comparing Muslims from quite underdeveloped countries in the Middle East to a highly developed country like the US. They are simply not comparable.

lowing wrote:

I will debate with you as long as you want to, but I will not let you tell me that am paramount to being the next fucking Hitler because I do not want to live in a Muslim community nor want to have my nieghborhood turned into one.
Not paramount to being Hitler (in fact that doesn't make any sense, I think tantamount is the word you were looking for), but that opinion does make you a bigot and Islamophobe (Islamophobia is defined as "prejudice against Muslims"), which has been demonstrated quite clearly and concisely throughout this thread. All of your squirming to avoid these unpleasant labels is futile since they fit you to a tee.

Some further examples:

lowing wrote:

I do not like Islam and I do not want it around me.

lowing wrote:

I do not want it in my country let alone my neighborhood. Islam is a religion that is 180 degrees out from what we as Americans practice morally, freely and equally.

I admit, my opinion contradicts a persons constitutional right to freedom of religion, but I feel the spirit of this assumes your freedom of religion does not hinder another persons freedoms, rights or privileges. Islam clearly does this.

lowing wrote:

It is the moderates that are always offended by our way of life. It is the moderates that rioted over the cartoons. It is the moderates that ae always calling for censorship. It is the moderates that expect appeasment to accomadate them.

lowing wrote:

The intolerance and violence is at the core of what Islam is and I would rather they practice it back in the region they already destroyed and leave western society alone.
Here's some more of your utterly contradictory stuff...

lowing wrote:

I also have never said I do not like Muslims, I said I do not like Islam. If you can tell me that is ok for Muslims to differentiate between Israel and the Jews, then I damn well am allowed to differentiate between this religion and its teaching and the individual people that are US citizens and follow it.
Yes, you have said you don't like Muslims. When you systematically tried to demonstrate, in a laughably weak manner, that all Muslims are the same and that moderates are just Muslims who haven't gotten pissed off enough to blow stuff up:

lowing wrote:

Think this through logically, Islam teaches and practices hate and intolerance. If "moderate Muslims" can come unglued over polical cartoons then I maintain and will believe that "moderate Muslims" can come unglued over anything they do not like.

Not one article I have read says these riots and protests and murderr and violence was committed by anything other than ordinary Muslims. No extremest groups claimed responsibility for any of it so it is absurd to deny who really was at the heart of it all.

lowing wrote:

Every other extremist activity has been claimed by extremists. All of the Muslim world erupts in protest and or riots and violence

lowing wrote:

We do know why the riots happened the MUSLIM community TOLD US WHY the riots occurred. Sorry if that is inconvenient for your defense of them.
lowing, you are a very scared, small minded, little person. Who happens to be both a bigot and an Islamophobe. Your pitiful attempts to slander the Muslim community as a whole and group them all together is proof of that. What is even more repulsive is the way in which you attempt to laugh off these labels, as though they are being used in an over the top manner, when in fact they are being used in perfect textbook context.

I'm not claiming you want to see all Muslims eradicated or anything so drastic, you just don't want them around you because of their religion (a point you have made numerous times). This makes you an Islamophobe and a bigot. Although of course I completely expect an utterly pointless response from you claiming to be neither of these things because you don't like the negative connotations of the labels.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-03-22 03:09:17)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6766|Cambridge (UK)
Game, Set and Match, Bertster.
daddyofdeath
A REAL Combat Engineer in the house
+187|6253|UK Bradford W,Yorks. Age 27
Erm....anyone know of any Christian churches in Iraq/Iran/Pakistan? Not sure if I have heard of any.
r'Eeee
That's how I roll, BITCH!
+311|6448

daddyofdeath wrote:

Erm....anyone know of any Christian churches in Iraq/Iran/Pakistan? Not sure if I have heard of any.
In Iraq there are loads.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6581|SE London

daddyofdeath wrote:

Erm....anyone know of any Christian churches in Iraq/Iran/Pakistan? Not sure if I have heard of any.
Loads and loads. Remember that Iraqi who kept appearing on TV saying the Americans were about to be crushed at the gates of Baghdad? He was a Christian. The percentage of Christians in Iraq is equal to the percentage of Muslims in the UK, Pakistan's is about half that and Iran's is slightly lower than that.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-03-22 03:27:31)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6757|Argentina

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:


Uhhh no, it is called a conclusion based on an observation.
One akin with saying that all Germans are Jew hating Nazis, based on observing WW2.
Ummmmm, the Germans ALLOWED this to happen that generation of Germans are guilty. The same as my grandparents generation is guilty of racism and social inequality toward blacks during during the time of the 40's 50's and 60's before the civil rights. The Muslims of today are guilty of allowing this religion to be high-jacked as they sit back and do nothing about it.
The regular Joe isn't the police.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6757|Argentina

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


Well gee whiz, ya forgot the most influential American Islamic organization.......Wanna talk about CAIR? Or did you forget to add that one out of convenience?
Well, I was TRYING to show you that there ARE actually peaceful Muslims, but apparentely you just decided to overlook them.

So what? Still doesn't represent Muslim in America as a whole.
I guess ya missed the point that CAIR is the MOST influential Islamic American organization in the US and also the bigest. So why aren't we gunna discuss this group since they are in fact the MAJOR player of all these groups in the US?
And AIPAC is the most influential Jewish organization, so?  Now tell me they are a Charity.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6757|Argentina

lowing wrote:

Islam is being practiced AS IT IS TAUGHT by the prophet Muhammad. Unfortunately this means that the extremists are more true to this religion that the "moderates".
So are ultraconservative Christians in relation to Christianity as it's taught in the Old Testament.  If you take those books, the Bible and the Qu'ran, both are a joke.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6757|Argentina

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I guess ya missed the point that CAIR is the MOST influential Islamic American organization in the US and also the bigest. So why aren't we gunna discuss this group since they are in fact the MAJOR player of all these groups in the US?
So wait, because the Catholic Church is the head of Catholicism, everything bad they say and do overrules every Catholic person's beliefs just because they're the "most major player" of all the Catholic groups?

Well shit!
Yup when the Catholic Church starts to teach to kill non believers, you will not find much support from me for them. Until then however, please keep your analogies grounded.
There were several cases of child abuse by priests within the Catholic Church.  Should we generalize and say that all Catholics are pedos?  No.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6766|Cambridge (UK)
C'mon guys, he's down, he's bleeding, he's out for the count.

Should we really keep sticking the boot in?














Oh, actually, ignore me. Carry on...

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