BF2S Forums photovoltaics is teh win !!:)

B.Schuss wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

Hey Schuss , I have applied to get a 1kW/hr array on my roof. It will cost a total of $1500 Australian if the deal is accepted ( that is after rebates etc). With your system, does the power get fed into the grid directly, or does it charge up batteries that you use to run lights, appliances etc.
Obviously my veiw is that it is a great thing, and will reduce my power costs, along with a significant reduction in Greenhouse gases, so its all win.
FEOS makes a good point that the production of the panels will produce pollutants, however most panels have a life expectancy of 25 years or so, therefore can more than account for the CO2 emitted during production.

It's not just CO2...there are much nastier things that are the byproducts of production.

well, obviously the idea is to make the whole production and distribution chain totally emission-free at some point in the future.
And since solar energy can power anything, from machinery, to production plants, to tranport vehicles, I wouldn't know why this shouldn't be possible.

I mean, think about it. Why would a company as big as GM or Volkswagen want to pay someone else for the energy they use, if they could just as well produce that energy themselves, for free ? I mean, they have literally got acres of roof space to use here...

I'm talking about the byproducts of making those photovoltaic materials (and batteries and such). It's not an emissions problem, it's a pollutant problem.

It could be a wash, but it might not be. The problem is nobody is looking at that aspect of the technologies.

How much did those solar panels cost? While they might save you money in the long run, and in some cases could get the power company to buy power from you, solar cells are extremely inefficient (only between 10 and 30 % I think) and expensive to install.

mtb0minime wrote:

How much did those solar panels cost? While they might save you money in the long run, and in some cases could get the power company to buy power from you, solar cells are extremely inefficient (only between 10 and 30 % I think) and expensive to install.

as I said, around 20.000 € for the whole system. It brings in 180,00 € per month from the power company, for the energy that I put into the grid.
That's 2160,00 € per year, considerably more than what I used to pay for electricity for the whole family.

And remember, we only installed this a year ago, when we had already had the house for over 20 years. For new houses, this should really be a no-brainer. It brings in money from the first day. Unlike with other investments around a house, this is not wasted money. You get something in return immediately.

Granted, I don't know what the legal situation is in every country. Here in germany, these installations are supported by the government through tax breaks and other stuff. They'll even give you a cheap loan, so that even if you don't have the money for the installation when you build the house, you can still put it on, and pay off the loan through the money the system brings in.
And after a couple of years, once the system has paid itself off, you're starting to save a lot of money.

You have to look at this from a long-term perspective. Energy prices are only going to go up, as are prices for water and gas.
The earlier you start depending less on some corporate assholes who want to make a quick buck by raising prices for electricity, the more you have for other things of importance.

My dream house to build would be a ZEB ( zero-energy building ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_energy_building

or at least a passive house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house

Not exactly cheap, but since most home builders calculate in decades, those are concepts worth considering, especially with the way energy prices are going to develop in the future.
Not having to rely on some corporate ass to provide me with electricity, heating, and water is something that I would cherish.

The efficiency of solar panels is going to improve as the technology progresses. I mean, there are already houses out there that actually produce energy over the year, while people are living in them.
This is not science fiction. It has the potential to change the way we produce and distribute energy completely.

The effects on the environment on producing and distributing all those would be something to consider.

No sun -> no power
Wouldn't work too well in Finland, especialy during the winter.

FEOS wrote:

I wonder what kind of a pollutant footprint the production of those PV arrays made...

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9889848-54.html?

The newspaper describes green fields in the nation's eastern central Henan Province that have turned snow white from the powdery waste of silicon tetrachloride, four tons of which result from every ton of polysilicon created. Toxic hydrogen chloride gas and acids waft from the waste.

The waste is allegedly coming from Chinese polysilicon maker Luoyang Zhonggui High-Technology, a supplier of rising solar power star Suntech Power, according to the Washington Post.

"In China, polysilicon plants are the new dot-coms," writes Ariana Eunjung Cha, reporting that new factories there are set to produce more than twice the amount of polysilicon as is currently manufactured in the world. Silicon tetrachloride can be recycled. But manufacturers reportedly can make polysilicon about two-thirds more cheaply if they ignore environmental protections.

Not that I am against solar power or alternate energy (I am just graduating 7 years of electrical engineering) but you have to hand it to the Chinese, they will go above and beyond to make a fast buck. Their situation, well each village has very little money, but if they rape the environment they can prosper in the globalized economy (Don't get me wrong - NA/EU/RU etc. have already raped their environments and often continue to do so).

I wonder what the return time would be like In Portland Oregon, I can imagine a very long time as we get bloody cloud cover for what seems like months at a time. probably 300+ days per year. /suicide

B.Schuss wrote:

Last year, I installed a photovoltaics array on the roof of my house. It's only a couple of square meters

and

B.Schuss wrote:

I won't have to pay a single dime to a power company for the rest of my life.
Instead, they are now paying me 180,00 € per month for the energy I send into their system.

2 m² solar panels, in not-always-so-sunny germany, makes you a net contributor to the power grid?

Kickass panels you've got, if this is indeed the case. What make are your PV cells?

B.Schuss wrote:

Right now, we're not allowed to store our own energy, but that will come sooner or later.

How about a great big UPS?

My roof would be prefect for one of those things. But I have no incentive to do it enviromentally, my town's electricity is all either wind or nuclear, and it would take a long time to pay off the cost of installation.

IRONCHEF wrote:

But addressing the OP, I wish it would be mandatory by 5 or 10 years time for all suburban and urban residences to provide a renewable/alternative energy source for their own power...at the expense of government subsidy...something perfect for the government to fund.

Our local Building Control Authority, responsible for how you build your home, just finished 3 years of test with mind to force new homes to include some form of renewable cost efficient energy. At the end of the studies they couldn't actually find a renewable energy that was cost efficient. The install price plus the maintenance costs added to the life span of the products was less that just buying the electricity from the grid.
Tho there are geographic factors.
Wind power doesn't work too well due to the winds we get here wreaking the plant itself.
Ground source heat pumps need a pump running 24/7 and results are variable due to ground conditions and lack of sun.
PV doesn't work too well either as we get little sun. Sometimes don't see the sun for weeks at a time.

The only descent renewable that works here is wood chip burners, burning quick growing willow chips. 0.5 hectares per household.

B.Schuss wrote:

the electricity that we put into the grid is supported by the german government, that amounted to over 2.000,00 € in pay-off, way more than what we had to pay for electricity the same year. So it's a good deal, at least under the current circumstances.

OK, thanks, now it makes sense.

This is a pretty darn good idea... kickstarts the deployment of grid-tie systems. As you said, the conversion tech is improving, and there will come a time when solar grid-tie systems reach the level of efficiency needed for self-sufficiency or even net contribution.