PeoNinja
Ninja Fart - Silent but Deadly
+31|6169
Mythbusters just aired the show and its busted  the plane took off

FredFLQ wrote:

-_-'

If the plane is going the same speed as the threadmill (thus not moving), it simply can't take off. Period.
a planes wheels are merely a mechanism to reduce friction (it would take a massive amount of force, not to mention cause enormous damage to the plane, to let it drag along the ground on its belly). They have nothing to do with propulsion.  Infact, there is very little difference between the idea of a plane taking off of a conveyor belt, and a seaplane launching from the water.

Last edited by PeoNinja (2008-01-30 19:21:16)

DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6655|United States of America

Locoloki wrote:

yeah there was a lot of confusion at first, at first i thought it wouldnt fly, but after sleeping on it a couple nights i realized the plane will move forward.

the plane moves forward, and thats all it needs to create lift. Most people are confused because they think the plane will just sit there like the pilot thought, but, since the power used to propel the plane forward is independant of the wheels, it doesnt matter how fast the treadmill is turning, the plane will still move forward like it normally does
QFT and added emphasis. Wrap that around your skull or if you had watched the episode and seen the comparison of the car versus the plane, it might have helped.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6737|UK

Locoloki wrote:

yeah there was a lot of confusion at first, at first i thought it wouldnt fly, but after sleeping on it a couple nights i realized the plane will move forward.

the plane moves forward, and thats all it needs to create lift. Most people are confused because they think the plane will just sit there like the pilot thought, but, since the power used to propel the plane forward is independant of the wheels, it doesnt matter how fast the treadmill is turning, the plane will still move forward like it normally does
Sorry but you dont seem to understand what STATIONARY means. It means its not moving in relation to the ground, if the planes thrust is causing it to move over the ground it is NOT stationary, therefore it doesnt show anything, it just shows a plane moving forward over the ground takes off, I believe we have know that for nearly 100 years...

The planes speed over the ground must be matched by the speed of the treadmill for the myth to be busted.
Ganko_06
Laughter with an S
+167|6616|Camoran's Paradise

PeoNinja wrote:

Mythbusters just aired the show and its busted  the plane took off
a planes wheels are merely a mechanism to reduce friction (it would take a massive amount of force, not to mention cause enormous damage to the plane, to let it drag along the ground on its belly). They have nothing to do with propulsion.  Infact, there is very little difference between the idea of a plane taking off of a conveyor belt, and a seaplane launching from the water.
Actually this is far from the idea of a seaplane.  The seaplane has to move forward and generate airflow over its wings just like any other plane.
The theory about the treadmill is that the plane DOES NOT MOVE with respect to the ground; \iIts positive thrust matches the negative pull by the treadmill thus canceling each other out leaving the plane in the same spot with its wheels spinning.  The only airflow being generated is by the propeller but that is a negligible amount since almost all of it is over the fuselage.  THERE IS NO AIRFLOW OVER THE WINGS.

0 Airflow = 0 Lift

Last edited by Ganko_06 (2008-01-30 19:32:03)

Fredrik
i hate you all
+201|6619|Norway

Vilham wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

yeah there was a lot of confusion at first, at first i thought it wouldnt fly, but after sleeping on it a couple nights i realized the plane will move forward.

the plane moves forward, and thats all it needs to create lift. Most people are confused because they think the plane will just sit there like the pilot thought, but, since the power used to propel the plane forward is independant of the wheels, it doesnt matter how fast the treadmill is turning, the plane will still move forward like it normally does
Sorry but you dont seem to understand what STATIONARY means. It means its not moving in relation to the ground, if the planes thrust is causing it to move over the ground it is NOT stationary, therefore it doesnt show anything, it just shows a plane moving forward over the ground takes off, I believe we have know that for nearly 100 years...

The planes speed over the ground must be matched by the speed of the treadmill for the myth to be busted.
Who says the plane is stationary?
Reject_Wolf
Former Karkand Addict
+32|6554|Windsor, Ontario, Canada
There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6678|67.222.138.85

Ganko_06 wrote:

Ok. They took off, but they didn't stay within the parameters.

The plane didn't lift off on the spot.  It had to actually move forward quite a way before taking off.
The spirit of the myth (to my understanding) was that the plane produced enough thrust that, without moving in a forward direction while still on the ground, it would achieve takeoff velocity. 
Mythbusters, didn't follow this.  The plane had to produce enough forward force to overcome the treadmill AND move forward to get lift.

My opinion: NOT BUSTED
Always what I thought the spirit of the experiment was, as I was telling Blackoala for an hour over the last thread.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6737|UK

Fredrik wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

yeah there was a lot of confusion at first, at first i thought it wouldnt fly, but after sleeping on it a couple nights i realized the plane will move forward.

the plane moves forward, and thats all it needs to create lift. Most people are confused because they think the plane will just sit there like the pilot thought, but, since the power used to propel the plane forward is independant of the wheels, it doesnt matter how fast the treadmill is turning, the plane will still move forward like it normally does
Sorry but you dont seem to understand what STATIONARY means. It means its not moving in relation to the ground, if the planes thrust is causing it to move over the ground it is NOT stationary, therefore it doesnt show anything, it just shows a plane moving forward over the ground takes off, I believe we have know that for nearly 100 years...

The planes speed over the ground must be matched by the speed of the treadmill for the myth to be busted.
Who says the plane is stationary?
The myth dictates that. If the plane has no movement, then it does not move the air around it, unless ofc there is wind, if the wind does not move around the plane there is no lift.
cospengle
Member
+140|6458|Armidale, NSW, Australia
I'll bet they didn't take this into account.
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6737|UK

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
Ganko_06
Laughter with an S
+167|6616|Camoran's Paradise

Fredrik wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

yeah there was a lot of confusion at first, at first i thought it wouldnt fly, but after sleeping on it a couple nights i realized the plane will move forward.

the plane moves forward, and thats all it needs to create lift. Most people are confused because they think the plane will just sit there like the pilot thought, but, since the power used to propel the plane forward is independant of the wheels, it doesnt matter how fast the treadmill is turning, the plane will still move forward like it normally does
Sorry but you dont seem to understand what STATIONARY means. It means its not moving in relation to the ground, if the planes thrust is causing it to move over the ground it is NOT stationary, therefore it doesnt show anything, it just shows a plane moving forward over the ground takes off, I believe we have know that for nearly 100 years...

The planes speed over the ground must be matched by the speed of the treadmill for the myth to be busted.
Who says the plane is stationary?
That's what the entire theory is about:

A plane stationary relative to the ground.

If the plane moves forward at all while still in contact with the ground (like in Mythbusters) it proves nothing.
Fredrik
i hate you all
+201|6619|Norway

Vilham wrote:

Fredrik wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Sorry but you dont seem to understand what STATIONARY means. It means its not moving in relation to the ground, if the planes thrust is causing it to move over the ground it is NOT stationary, therefore it doesnt show anything, it just shows a plane moving forward over the ground takes off, I believe we have know that for nearly 100 years...

The planes speed over the ground must be matched by the speed of the treadmill for the myth to be busted.
Who says the plane is stationary?
The myth dictates that. If the plane has no movement, then it does not move the air around it, unless ofc there is wind, if the wind does not move around the plane there is no lift.
This is the myth right? I did'nt see the show, so this is the only place i've seen the myth.

A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).

Last edited by Fredrik (2008-01-30 19:40:27)

BlackKoala
Member
+215|6296

Vilham wrote:

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
Show me the fucknig myth that says the planes must stay stationary?  The original one, from like 2005 or whatever.

If anyone honestly thought the plane would take off from a stand still, you are retarded.  But that's NOT what the myth was about.  IT proved that the treadmill had NO (little) EFFECT ON THE PLANE'S FORWARD PROGRESS.  The plane still had the ability to move and take off.  If anyone wants to argue that, I can build you a nice little fire to go smolder in.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6655|United States of America

Vilham wrote:

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
A plane can't be stationary like a car can though, because the plane isn't sending power to the wheels to do so.
PeoNinja
Ninja Fart - Silent but Deadly
+31|6169

Ganko_06 wrote:

PeoNinja wrote:

Mythbusters just aired the show and its busted  the plane took off
a planes wheels are merely a mechanism to reduce friction (it would take a massive amount of force, not to mention cause enormous damage to the plane, to let it drag along the ground on its belly). They have nothing to do with propulsion.  Infact, there is very little difference between the idea of a plane taking off of a conveyor belt, and a seaplane launching from the water.
Actually this is far from the idea of a seaplane.  The seaplane has to move forward and generate airflow over its wings just like any other plane.
The theory about the treadmill is that the plane DOES NOT MOVE with respect to the ground; \iIts positive thrust matches the negative pull by the treadmill thus canceling each other out leaving the plane in the same spot with its wheels spinning.  The only airflow being generated is by the propeller but that is a negligible amount since almost all of it is over the fuselage.  THERE IS NO AIRFLOW OVER THE WINGS.

0 Airflow = 0 Lift
did you missed the small scale experiment? An actual conveyor belt, not a giant potato sack pulled by a pick up, and it was the same thing, the plane move forward.


BlackKoala wrote:

Show me the fucknig myth that says the planes must stay stationary?  The original one, from like 2005 or whatever.

If anyone honestly thought the plane would take off from a stand still, you are retarded.  But that's NOT what the myth was about.  IT proved that the treadmill had NO (little) EFFECT ON THE PLANE'S FORWARD PROGRESS.  The plane still had the ability to move and take off.  If anyone wants to argue that, I can build you a nice little fire to go smolder in.
AMEN!

Last edited by PeoNinja (2008-01-30 19:44:59)

Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6737|UK
BlackKoala read above ur post... the speed of the plane is matched inversely by the conveyor therefore the plane is STATIONARY....

That is the myth, and yes some retards do seem to think it could take off without moving forwards...
FredFLQ
S0tp R4p1nG u5!!1one
+47|6502|Donnacona, Quebec

BlackKoala wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
Show me the fucknig myth that says the planes must stay stationary?  The original one, from like 2005 or whatever.

If anyone honestly thought the plane would take off from a stand still, you are retarded.  But that's NOT what the myth was about.  IT proved that the treadmill had NO (little) EFFECT ON THE PLANE'S FORWARD PROGRESS.  The plane still had the ability to move and take off.  If anyone wants to argue that, I can build you a nice little fire to go smolder in.
*points 2 posts above*

We all know that the plane won't take off if it doesn't move... Ok maybe not all of us but meh... They probably failed their physics class =/
Fredrik
i hate you all
+201|6619|Norway
What people seem to misunderstand, is whether the plane would move forward or not according to the myth...
Ganko_06
Laughter with an S
+167|6616|Camoran's Paradise

DesertFox- wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
A plane can't be stationary like a car can though, because the plane isn't sending power to the wheels to do so.
True there is no power to the wheels but it created forward power via the propeller forcing air backwards.  If the forward force generated by the propeller equals the backwards force of the treadmill, it will remain stationary.
Fredrik
i hate you all
+201|6619|Norway

Vilham wrote:

BlackKoala read above ur post... the speed of the plane is matched inversely by the conveyor therefore the plane is STATIONARY....

That is the myth, and yes some retards do seem to think it could take off without moving forwards...
ONLY THE WHEEEEELS ARE EFFECTED BY THAT FFS! the plane still moves forward...

Last edited by Fredrik (2008-01-30 19:45:51)

Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|6611|Your moms bedroom
sorry guys but, the car pulling the tarp went 25 mph, and the plane went 25 mph, and the plane took off, because the wheels on a plane spin round and round, round and round, round and round, but the proooooooops ........ make it move

watch the episode before you comment if you still dont believe the plane took off, dont you see he barely had to apply throttle for the plane to move forward?
BlackKoala
Member
+215|6296

Vilham wrote:

BlackKoala read above ur post... the speed of the plane is matched inversely by the conveyor therefore the plane is STATIONARY....

That is the myth, and yes some retards do seem to think it could take off without moving forwards...
Since when does the speed of the conveyor have ANY negligible adverse effect on the speed of the aircraft?  (I'm not going into friction, I doubt you would understand.)

Last I checked the wheels of a plane spun freely on an axis, as they aren't powered by the engine like in a car.

You can increase the treadmill speed all you want, the plane can and will move faster (until other factors set in, but those are irrelevant to prove the point; which was done) completely independent of the two rotating masses known as wheels.

Last edited by BlackKoala (2008-01-30 19:48:56)

Dauntless
Admin
+2,249|6713|London

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is that it would take off. The plane isn't using the floor to move it forward, it's using the air.
https://imgur.com/kXTNQ8D.png
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6737|UK

DesertFox- wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Reject_Wolf wrote:

There simply needs to be a force lifting the plane. That force is created by the forward velocity creating a lifting force against the air.
Yes but the myth states the plane must be stationary over the ground, therefore there is no forward force and therefore no lift.
A plane can't be stationary like a car can though, because the plane isn't sending power to the wheels to do so.
Ofc it can. Until the plane is off the ground its wheels are supporting its weight. Without lift the plane is a giant motor with small wheels, just like a jet car eg the fastest cars in the world.. note how they DONT have power to the wheels... If that forward velocity is matched by a backwards velocity there is no movement.

Or are you trying to say the forward thrust is greater than the speed the wheels might turn, if you are. FUCKING DUR. Way to state the obvious. That means its dragging its wheels. And the myth has NOTHING to do with wheels, its all about forward thrust and negative thrust.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6678|67.222.138.85
I'm pretty sure 95% of us understand the physics of it, the interpretation of the problem is where things go south.

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