Really, the United states is just getting into deeper shit the more they do in the middle east. It is good that they liberated Iraq, but there are so many religious fanatics that just by being there America is making more enemies. It is the partially the fault of the westerners who sympathize with countries like Iran that America is getting such a bad reputation.
Ok. But the ship was on patrol in a trade route in international waters. It is completely irrelevant how close it is to Iran. They initiated shennanigans not us. If they threaten to blow up a ship, a ship like the USS Cole for instance, then why should we stand idle and let them.Im_Dooomed wrote:
Those little speed boats is the Iranian patrol? lololol
All kidding aside, I am anti-war especially when it involves religion. This whole Middle East conflict the United States has gotten itself in for years is a totally FUBAR, and no further hostilities should be carried out against Arab Nations in my opinion.
Pick up a paper. We are not at war with Arab people, we are after terrorists. Don't generalize, we are not at war with UAE ,Egypt, etc and they would be Arabian ya know.Im_Dooomed wrote:
no further hostilities should be carried out against Arab Nations in my opinion.
Malloy must go
Sorry I've lost faith in a government who has gone into many wars on what turn out to be incredibly false and questionable pretenses.NantanCochise wrote:
You know why Iran did this, because they knew that people like you would spin this in their favour. They are already winning the "hearts and minds" of westerners even though they are a Islamic dictatorship and are not accountable for any action they may take.CommieChipmunk wrote:
Or the Gulf of Tonkin incident that started Vietnam...LaidBackNinja wrote:
False Flag Operation?
The U.S. has tried to sink one of their own ships before in order to engage in a war.
But it's nice to know that Iran as me in mind
We are at war with Arab people if you get technical. Those terrorists certainly consider themselves Arab correct? I know we are not at war with the UAE etc. What I mean is we shouldn't intervene into other Arab Countries. Even if we are after 'Terrorists' it doesn't matter, we are still appearing as a hostile intruder, no matter what you may think the war is really about. We still are attacking Arab Nations.deeznutz1245 wrote:
Pick up a paper. We are not at war with Arab people, we are after terrorists. Don't generalize, we are not at war with UAE ,Egypt, etc and they would be Arabian ya know.Im_Dooomed wrote:
no further hostilities should be carried out against Arab Nations in my opinion.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
the voice cracked me up, I want to think this was legit terrorism, but a side of me is leaning towards some sort of conspriacy, either that or im just really bored and need to entertain myself today.
Anyway if it was a dry run, the next time wont be fun for old akmed in that speed boat, those 20mm cannons are nasty.
Anyway if it was a dry run, the next time wont be fun for old akmed in that speed boat, those 20mm cannons are nasty.
What are some of you on about, yes a lot of us have lost faith in our governments but please dont use the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext in this senario. You might as well say that the Royal Marine abduction was orcastrated. You might as well start saying that Iran has or had no nuclear ambitions. If you distrust what western governments are saying than you might as well listen to what the Iranians are telling us. Like the fact that they have confirmend the purchase of S-300 SAM and other missile systems from Russia, that they want to wipe Isreal off the map, that they want nuclear power, that they consider the US and EU enemies of Iran and all Muslim people. That they donate money to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, thet they support Islamic governments in all majority Muslim countries and that they believe that they have sole sovereignty of the Arabian Gulf. Funny thing is, all of this is true, they admit it and that scares me. But instead we still look within and find the blame in Isreal, the EU, the US and NATO. Yes I know and Ive said before that we are not perfect but please wake up and forget about the past, look at where we are now, look at the future of the middle east and the world for that matter. If we continue it ignore the real issues and threats we will definateley be living in a more dangerous world. And no I dont mean start a war, but united pressure will definately make a difference.
Last edited by NantanCochise (2008-01-09 23:38:13)
well put.NantanCochise wrote:
What are some of you on about, yes a lot of us have lost faith in our governments but please dont use the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext in this senario. You might as well say that the Royal Marine abduction was orcastrated. You might as well start saying that Iran has or had no nuclear ambitions. If you distrust what western governments are saying than you might as well listen to what the Iranians are telling us. Like the fact that they have confirmend the purchase of S-300 SAM and other missile systems from Russia, that they want to wipe Isreal off the map, that they want nuclear power, that they consider the US and EU enemies of Iran and all Muslim people. That they donate money to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, thet they support Islamic governments in all majority Muslim countries and that they believe that they have sole sovereignty of the Arabian Gulf. Funny thing is, all of this is true, they admit it and that scares me. But instead we still look within and find the blame in Isreal, the EU, the US and NATO. Yes I know and Ive said before that we are not perfect but please wake up and forget about the past, look at where we are now, look at the future of the middle east and the world for that matter. If we continue it ignore the real issues and threats we will definateley be living in a more dangerous world. And no I dont mean start a war, but united pressure will definately make a difference.
I love it how you can distill any major issue into:David.P wrote:
It's called bending over to the enemy that you hope will one day invade your land and you hope that you will get better treatment.NantanCochise wrote:
Yep, Iran provokes US ships in International waters and half of you wankers start trying to justify the actions of an Islamofacist Dictatorship over your own anti-American mis-conceptions. Why are so many westerners willing to side with dictatorships over free western societies.
I like to call it white guilt.(because most of the people who do this are white upper middle class)
Oh and you know whats funny? People who escaped these nations say they hate the government but love the country, And they love the country they live in now because it's more permissive then their previous home.
- Appeasement
- Something about race
- Liberals (though not in this case, fortunately)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
And because the US and Uk governments said in the 50s that they were developing nuclear power for civilian uses and actually used it as a way of generating weapons grade fissile materials, everyone is going to do the same I suppose?jason85 wrote:
The reason the US is putting so much pressure on them is because of Iran's nuclear programs. Iran says it wants to use it for peaceful reasons, such as for power plants, while the US thinks they want to have weapons grade material.
More interestingly the Iranian nuclear power program is a US program started in the 50s. They are literally doing what the US told them to do.FathomsDown wrote:
And because the US and Uk governments said in the 50s that they were developing nuclear power for civilian uses and actually used it as a way of generating weapons grade fissile materials, everyone is going to do the same I suppose?jason85 wrote:
The reason the US is putting so much pressure on them is because of Iran's nuclear programs. Iran says it wants to use it for peaceful reasons, such as for power plants, while the US thinks they want to have weapons grade material.
I would have to disagree with you on the point that they consider the US and EU enemies of 'Iran and all Muslim people'. I took the time to read a history of modern Iran from early last century to the modern day and their story is one of trying to remove foreign control over their politics and over their resources. In the beginning the UK and Russia fought over control and then after WWII it was the Brits and the US. The modern situation is just an extension of their resistance to the foreign powers they managed to oust in 1979. In 1980 the US backed Iraq in an illegitimate invasion of Iran, hardly inspiring confidence in the Iranians over US intentions. A cornered animal can react viciously - it is this cornering of Iran that is prompting to respond in the manner it has. I can't blame them for wanting to develop nuclear weapons - I mean just look what happened to their neighbours Iraq at the hands of the west.NantanCochise wrote:
What are some of you on about, yes a lot of us have lost faith in our governments but please dont use the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext in this senario. You might as well say that the Royal Marine abduction was orcastrated. You might as well start saying that Iran has or had no nuclear ambitions. If you distrust what western governments are saying than you might as well listen to what the Iranians are telling us. Like the fact that they have confirmend the purchase of S-300 SAM and other missile systems from Russia, that they want to wipe Isreal off the map, that they want nuclear power, that they consider the US and EU enemies of Iran and all Muslim people. That they donate money to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, thet they support Islamic governments in all majority Muslim countries and that they believe that they have sole sovereignty of the Arabian Gulf. Funny thing is, all of this is true, they admit it and that scares me. But instead we still look within and find the blame in Isreal, the EU, the US and NATO. Yes I know and Ive said before that we are not perfect but please wake up and forget about the past, look at where we are now, look at the future of the middle east and the world for that matter. If we continue it ignore the real issues and threats we will definateley be living in a more dangerous world. And no I dont mean start a war, but united pressure will definately make a difference.
Another point is that while they do support Hisb'allah financially I think you are overreaching with your assertion that they donate money to Islamic militants in all majority muslim countries - most Muslim countries are Sunni and thus opposed to Iranian (Sh'ia) hegemony over the middle east.
Don't get me wrong, Iran does like to exert its influence in the gulf but you're painting them a) as an aggressor when one could argue that they are a 'responder' and b) as an existential threat to the west, which quite frankly is a little silly. This is not a pro-Iran stance or an anti-Iran stance - I'm just stating facts here.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-10 03:09:52)
what if the roles were reversed?
how comfortable would you feel if the iranian military was in canada (no offense ) and were partolling off washington state?
how comfortable would you feel if the iranian military was in canada (no offense ) and were partolling off washington state?
Bet they're glad they brought the camera along. It's looking more and more like a steaming great pile of US Bullshit.
Speaking personally I just don't care anymore if Americans think I'm 'anti-American' or any of that horse shit. I no longer differentiate between countries like the US, Russia, Britain, Iran, China or Syria anymore as quite frankly they all do the same underhanded things and try to pass themselves off as the good guys.NantanCochise wrote:
What are some of you on about, yes a lot of us have lost faith in our governments but please dont use the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext in this senario. You might as well say that the Royal Marine abduction was orcastrated. You might as well start saying that Iran has or had no nuclear ambitions. If you distrust what western governments are saying than you might as well listen to what the Iranians are telling us. Like the fact that they have confirmend the purchase of S-300 SAM and other missile systems from Russia, that they want to wipe Isreal off the map, that they want nuclear power, that they consider the US and EU enemies of Iran and all Muslim people. That they donate money to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, thet they support Islamic governments in all majority Muslim countries and that they believe that they have sole sovereignty of the Arabian Gulf. Funny thing is, all of this is true, they admit it and that scares me. But instead we still look within and find the blame in Isreal, the EU, the US and NATO. Yes I know and Ive said before that we are not perfect but please wake up and forget about the past, look at where we are now, look at the future of the middle east and the world for that matter. If we continue it ignore the real issues and threats we will definateley be living in a more dangerous world. And no I dont mean start a war, but united pressure will definately make a difference.
You say Iran fund insurgency in other Islamic countries? ...well the US has done that in Cuba, Afghanistan, Vietnam and half of South America. You say Iran are a military threat to other nations? ...well the US has openly blown two countries to bits in the last 10 years and carried out more covert operations in parts of Africa such as Ethiopia. Many people say Iran have no respect for human rights ...well the US have the death penalty, Guantanamo bay and 'extraordinary rendition'.
Countries like Russia, China and the UK are guilty of most of the same things I just mentioned too so it's not just that I 'hate' the US. I just don't care what all these countries do to each other anymore as they are all as guilty as each other. You say we have to wake up and acknowledge the real threats in the modern world, well the US is as much of a threat, if not more, to world peace than these so called axis of evil countries because unlike these weak little nations the US has the power to do real damage and is far quicker to jump into conflict.
Siding with Islamofascist dictatorships???? Oh give over. You would think the USA had never fabricated a piece of 'evidence' or mislead the American people before.
America is no longer a shining light of democracy these days either. Your president gets elected but has less votes than the other guy. There are all sorts of unanswered questions regarding the count and 'anomalies'.
As far as I can see with this Presidential race, your president is chosen on how many rich campaign Donner's (who need the favour returned) and TV time they have over their policies. The richer better funded candidate will win, doesn't matter if they are an idiot with other unelected people obviously making the decisions ala GWB.
Iran murders prisoners, so does the USA. As an outsider USA and Iran aren't much different. If its not the Kennedy family, its the Bush Family or the Clinton family............. its kind of like royal families. Only instead of royal blood passed on from generation to generation. Its old money and rich friends that ensure the succession to the throne presidency.
America is no longer a shining light of democracy these days either. Your president gets elected but has less votes than the other guy. There are all sorts of unanswered questions regarding the count and 'anomalies'.
As far as I can see with this Presidential race, your president is chosen on how many rich campaign Donner's (who need the favour returned) and TV time they have over their policies. The richer better funded candidate will win, doesn't matter if they are an idiot with other unelected people obviously making the decisions ala GWB.
Iran murders prisoners, so does the USA. As an outsider USA and Iran aren't much different. If its not the Kennedy family, its the Bush Family or the Clinton family............. its kind of like royal families. Only instead of royal blood passed on from generation to generation. Its old money and rich friends that ensure the succession to the throne presidency.
Last edited by JahManRed (2008-01-10 06:27:12)
I think the title of the thread pretty much explains the attitude being adopted: threatening, over-bearing, pugilistic militarism. The truth in this instance is that is all that there can be, a whole lot of attitude. There'll be no invasion, the US and it's allies lack both the resources and the will. Attack Iran and you've launched a war on the entire Arab world, not something America wants or is stupid enough to do.
That doesn't mean I don't think cruising around ships ten times your size and dropping boxes in the water is a smart thing to do, it's brinksmanship, but when you're right off the Iranian coast, you probably shouldn't expect clear water and smooth sailing.
That doesn't mean I don't think cruising around ships ten times your size and dropping boxes in the water is a smart thing to do, it's brinksmanship, but when you're right off the Iranian coast, you probably shouldn't expect clear water and smooth sailing.
If you ask the majority of the world, the US is the greatest threat to world peace, followed by Israel. Even polling US citizens, 8% of Americans see America as the greatest threat to world stability. The world has collectively lost faith in the US government, and not without good reason.NantanCochise wrote:
What are some of you on about, yes a lot of us have lost faith in our governments but please dont use the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext in this senario. You might as well say that the Royal Marine abduction was orcastrated. You might as well start saying that Iran has or had no nuclear ambitions. If you distrust what western governments are saying than you might as well listen to what the Iranians are telling us. Like the fact that they have confirmend the purchase of S-300 SAM and other missile systems from Russia, that they want to wipe Isreal off the map, that they want nuclear power, that they consider the US and EU enemies of Iran and all Muslim people. That they donate money to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, thet they support Islamic governments in all majority Muslim countries and that they believe that they have sole sovereignty of the Arabian Gulf. Funny thing is, all of this is true, they admit it and that scares me. But instead we still look within and find the blame in Isreal, the EU, the US and NATO. Yes I know and Ive said before that we are not perfect but please wake up and forget about the past, look at where we are now, look at the future of the middle east and the world for that matter. If we continue it ignore the real issues and threats we will definateley be living in a more dangerous world. And no I dont mean start a war, but united pressure will definately make a difference.
http://watchingpolitics.com/?p=2714
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detay … ink=113692
The way to avoid the problem and minimize the danger is to swat the fly away--to show the enemy that you won't be diddled with impunity. You don't actually have to shoot at anyone, not when you're driving a 9100-ton cruiser and they have 30 ton speedboats--all you have to do is pass a little too closely while cranking 30 knots, and let your bow wave and wake do the rest. If you're feeling charitable, you can lower a boat and pick up survivors.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Or empty the boats sewage system on them. 500 sailors on a cruiser is at least 500 dumps to unload on the enemy.Kmarion wrote:
The way to avoid the problem and minimize the danger is to swat the fly away--to show the enemy that you won't be diddled with impunity. You don't actually have to shoot at anyone, not when you're driving a 9100-ton cruiser and they have 30 ton speedboats--all you have to do is pass a little too closely while cranking 30 knots, and let your bow wave and wake do the rest. If you're feeling charitable, you can lower a boat and pick up survivors.
Do you understand the electoral college?...and what does the 2000 US Presidential election have to do with US/Iranian relations? While you may not directly support Iran's possition, you sure make it sound like you stand against the US (you have that right, but it seems to be clouding your views IMO).JahManRed wrote:
America is no longer a shining light of democracy these days either. Your president gets elected but has less votes than the other guy.
Yes I understand how your elections work. I follow them closely, my families finical future is determined as much in the US as UK elections. The credit crunch which has made its way over here has contributed to my income dropping in the last month and it looks like it is getting worse.RAIMIUS wrote:
Do you understand the electoral college?...and what does the 2000 US Presidential election have to do with US/Iranian relations? While you may not directly support Iran's possition, you sure make it sound like you stand against the US (you have that right, but it seems to be clouding your views IMO).JahManRed wrote:
America is no longer a shining light of democracy these days either. Your president gets elected but has less votes than the other guy.
The 2000 election was won by Bush and the Neo Conservative movement and its their middle eastern policy the US has applied in the ME. Its reasonable to presume that if the election had went the other way, things could be different with Iran today.
Just pointing out that things are not black and white in the US just as Iran. I am not hitting on America, Iran are much worse in terms of democracy and controlling their people. Not one country on this planet is perfect and there are many forms of control, some we are aware of and some we aren't.
A direct link http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/251.6/ … cl=5895831 .
Both videos are incredibly lame. The speedboats in the US version are blue and the same size. I don't see how filming a few minutes away from the boats is supposed to disperse claims that they never got close. I could punch a co worker in the face and then film me sitting at my desk for 3 minutes to show my innocence .. I guess.
It doesn't really matter. The previous overt actions of GWB has guaranteed that world opinion will side with Iran. Instead of having our Navy folks at risk ... or I don't know kidnapped .. maybe they should just tear them apart next time. Shooting film and shooting bullets seems to be the same thing amongst popular opinion. Props to the captains of the Navy ships. They were in a difficult situation and they seemed to have handled it well. It's not a greenlight to go to war, but it is a demonstration of restraint and level headedness. Shoreline Politicians and the media can spin the blame game all they want. Unfortunately are officers are damned in every response.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
You're right - and it's George W. Bush's fault. I only hope that the damage done to the US can be repaired (through a change in direction). Nobody likes someone who keeps military bases in over 100 countries and tries to pretend it isn't some kind of modern global empire... They wouldn't like it if it was Iran doing it, they wouldn't like it if it was Russia doing and they don't like USA doing it since the Cold War ended.Kmarion wrote:
Unfortunately are officers are damned in every response.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-10 08:44:05)
No disagreement there.
Xbone Stormsurgezz