Now that Water-boarding is on the spot, what do you think about it? Are certain torture methods acceptable? Are any? Why?
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Is Water-Boarding a Valid Method?
| Yes, they are valid methods | 45% | 45% - 24 | ||||
| Only if it can save innocent people lives | 20% | 20% - 11 | ||||
| Water-boarding is too much, but other methods are fine | 1% | 1% - 1 | ||||
| No, you must respect the Geneva Conventions | 32% | 32% - 17 | ||||
| Total: 53 | ||||||
I think as far as torture goes its mild ... assuming you don't have a heart condition .. you will walk away from it.
Right or wrong, if you think a mass amount of people are about to be killed or a great dela of money is at stake, then torture is required.
Would you be willing die so noone ever gets tortured?
Right or wrong, if you think a mass amount of people are about to be killed or a great dela of money is at stake, then torture is required.
Would you be willing die so noone ever gets tortured?
Last edited by jsnipy (2007-12-12 09:56:50)
The wide consensus from generals and intelligence officers that I've heard pretty much say they don't get good intel from torture anyways. And yes, I'm aware that certain bushies say the opposite..but that's par for the course and obviously as credible as....anything Cheney has said since 1992.
And yes, if torturing ONE person could save the lives of a million, it should still be discouraged (the old hypothetical trick question) because it's impossible to know that scenario is possible, the tortured could easily give fake info, and the torturing has reduced your own credibility as a civilized nation other nations will want to deal with. That and torture hurts.
Oh, and it doesn't look like waterboarding is very dangerous, but you are fighting for your life convinced that you will drown and that would be torture. The better question is...WHY the hell are you waterboarding anyone in the first place? If you can't get the information from them in lawful interrogation, and you know the likelyhood of getting that information is slim to nil through torture....it means you're torturing to punish them. And it means you SUCK at your job in the first place (FBI, CIA, NSA, ***, etc).
And yes, if torturing ONE person could save the lives of a million, it should still be discouraged (the old hypothetical trick question) because it's impossible to know that scenario is possible, the tortured could easily give fake info, and the torturing has reduced your own credibility as a civilized nation other nations will want to deal with. That and torture hurts.
Oh, and it doesn't look like waterboarding is very dangerous, but you are fighting for your life convinced that you will drown and that would be torture. The better question is...WHY the hell are you waterboarding anyone in the first place? If you can't get the information from them in lawful interrogation, and you know the likelyhood of getting that information is slim to nil through torture....it means you're torturing to punish them. And it means you SUCK at your job in the first place (FBI, CIA, NSA, ***, etc).
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-12 10:01:40)
Good point, kind of like speeding. Sure there is a speed limit, but generally you are not getting pulled for 10 over.IRONCHEF wrote:
And yes, if torturing ONE person could save the lives of a million, it should still be discouraged (the old hypothetical trick question) because it's impossible to know that scenario is possible, the tortured could easily give fake info, and the torturing has reduced your own credibility as a civilized nation other nations will want to deal with. That and torture hurts.
Treat prisoners, like you would want to be treated. Like human beings and with respect!
and would anyone accept, to be tortured, when you are innocent?
and would anyone accept, to be tortured, when you are innocent?
Last edited by [pt] KEIOS (2007-12-12 10:19:19)
It would be really nice if that sentiment went both ways. But it doesn't. The fact of the matter is that terrorists don't have that respect for human life. However, that does NOT mean that the US should give up it's respect for human life. Regardless, I agree with you absolutely.[pt] KEIOS wrote:
Treat prisoners, like you would want to be treated. Like human beings and with respect!
Torture is a moral black hole, and you can't be a "good guy" punishing "evil doers" if you become evil yourself...
Gargle, gargle, gargle... Its fine with me...
I guess that really depends on what you define as torture. I think water-boarding is without-a-doubt torture, but is scaring prisoners with attack dogs torture? Is sleep deprivation torture? What about loud music (blasting the Red Hot Chili Peppers has been used on terror suspects)? Being made to stand for prolonged periods of time? Induced hypothermia (that kind of sounds like torture, though)? Tasers?sergeriver wrote:
Now that Water-boarding is on the spot, what do you think about it? Are certain torture methods acceptable? Are any? Why?
These are all methods of interrogation the US Government has/wants to be able to use. Which of those is acceptable?
Granted, I wouldn't want to be subject to any. Sleep deprivation around college exams is bad enough...
Well said, and good point. Lowering yourself to the standards of your opponent does NOTHING in the overall effort of overcoming that opponent. All you'll end up doing is winning, or losing, and having done so and lowered your standards, you've become more like your enemy.SenorToenails wrote:
It would be really nice if that sentiment went both ways. But it doesn't. The fact of the matter is that terrorists don't have that respect for human life. However, that does NOT mean that the US should give up it's respect for human life. Regardless, I agree with you absolutely.[pt] KEIOS wrote:
Treat prisoners, like you would want to be treated. Like human beings and with respect!
Torture is a moral black hole, and you can't be a "good guy" punishing "evil doers" if you become evil yourself...
Imagine if US troops in Iraq started beheading their al qaeda captives on video....
I'd say those are all torture methods. Fear induced confessions are the same regardless of the torture method IMHO. If hammering on toes, putting bamboo shutes under nailbeds, injecting battery acid, hanging, electrocuting, waterboarding, tasering (low amperage electrocution), beating, music/sound/sleep deprivation, or other such tactics pretty much produce the same quality of intelligence, then why do ANY form of torture beyond a good verbal ass whooping?SenorToenails wrote:
I guess that really depends on what you define as torture. I think water-boarding is without-a-doubt torture, but is scaring prisoners with attack dogs torture? Is sleep deprivation torture? What about loud music (blasting the Red Hot Chili Peppers has been used on terror suspects)? Being made to stand for prolonged periods of time? Induced hypothermia (that kind of sounds like torture, though)? Tasers?sergeriver wrote:
Now that Water-boarding is on the spot, what do you think about it? Are certain torture methods acceptable? Are any? Why?
These are all methods of interrogation the US Government has/wants to be able to use. Which of those is acceptable?
Granted, I wouldn't want to be subject to any. Sleep deprivation around college exams is bad enough...
As I've said before, resulting to interrogation for such important information only shows the ineptitude of your department. If your unmatched defense budget can't afford good human espionage or human intelligence in the field, then you truly suck if you have to rely on interrogation for everything you learn.
certain types of torture will have a much wider affect than others on different people. Sleep deprivation wont do it for me. But I could tell it puts sand in a whole lotta vaginas on this forum.
If we could do it on our people;Our Soldiers, police men, government officials, I dont considerate torture. Sleep deprivation is not torture. Shit man, it takes up to three days just to in process at the los angeles county jail. in those three days you are waiting in line not sleeping, standing with a blanket wrapped around you, if youre lucky. I could tell that an unbelievably huge portion of the posters on this forum have had very sheltered lives and havent been exposed to the unfairness that the real world (away from the computer) has to offer.
If we could do it on our people;Our Soldiers, police men, government officials, I dont considerate torture. Sleep deprivation is not torture. Shit man, it takes up to three days just to in process at the los angeles county jail. in those three days you are waiting in line not sleeping, standing with a blanket wrapped around you, if youre lucky. I could tell that an unbelievably huge portion of the posters on this forum have had very sheltered lives and havent been exposed to the unfairness that the real world (away from the computer) has to offer.
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-12-12 10:58:52)
Is sleep deprivation combined with other forms of "enhanced interrogation" tactics? I've never heard of it being used by itself. And why would people be considered to have sheltered lives for realizing what would and wouldn't be considered a form of interrogation not in compliance with international law? It doesn't matter if we can or can't handle water boarding or sleep deprivation or electrocution. It's an estimation any human can derive with or without experience.
never used by itself.IRONCHEF wrote:
Is sleep deprivation combined with other forms of "enhanced interrogation" tactics?
I thought so. It'd be pretty ridiculous to just do that and expect added compliance. And you're right, just sleep deprivation alone isn't very painful at all. However, when it's employed with psychological stress elements, light and sound stress elements, it can easily fall under the cruel and unusual punishment category..even if they walk away without a bruise. And that's how I associate it with being torturous.
You ever undergo such things? Most I've had done to me is being tasered and pepper sprayed (no, I wasn't raping someone).
You ever undergo such things? Most I've had done to me is being tasered and pepper sprayed (no, I wasn't raping someone).
getting tasered before my next deployment. Ive gotta go through some kind of training and be certified or some thing silly like that. Sleep deprivation was half the time I was awake in the army. the worst year was in iraq. When deployments start, they are high tempo for the first few months. No time to relax. I was up for damn near a week, I think it was 6 days. We go out and bust a 14 hour patrol then come back in and we w ould assume that we would have time off but, none of the other platoons were combat capable at the moment, so we would go right back out. Was like that for the first 3 days, then we actually had time to sleep. Couldnt sleep. and then a huge battalion mission would be called and that was another 48 hours of constant ops. didnt finally get a break until day 5 or 6. It was like that on a handful of occassions. And the last week there too. Ive been tear gassed but everyone has. I might be going to SERE school when I get back from Iraq so Ill be looking forward to getting one my fingers broken (hopefully just).
Torture is never used as the only source of information. Normally torture is used to fill in gaps in verifiable intelligence. No one trusts the information that comes from a torture victim unless it is verifiable some way. A torture victim is still the enemy and his job is to mislead you, so anything they say no matter how sincere it seems is always considered a lie and must be verified. Waterboarding is a highly effective technique to break the mind of the enemy and make him spill and when it comes down to thousands of lives everything is fair.
lol, tell the current administration that!Arcano-D.E.S wrote:
Torture is never used as the only source of information. Normally torture is used to fill in gaps in verifiable intelligence. No one trusts the information that comes from a torture victim unless it is verifiable some way.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-12 11:31:09)
Well that is why I put "normally"
Torture is not acceptable if you consider yourself a civilised nation. Leave the torture to the terrorists, we should be above that.
water boarding is fine
we also need to bring back some old school tactics
we also need to bring back some old school tactics
Is waterboarding a valid method of what? Inflicting mental pain on someone?
What good is espousing a code of conduct or an idea of "right" and "wrong" if you support or take part in an action directly conflicting those morals?
What good is espousing a code of conduct or an idea of "right" and "wrong" if you support or take part in an action directly conflicting those morals?
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-12-12 15:06:41)
Water-Boarding. Its good for ya. You'd be "right" to tell us what you know. You'd be "wrong" not to... We might also blare loud hip-hop music, you will get very lil sleep, and have females interrogators talk down to you...
Last edited by (T)eflon(S)hadow (2007-12-12 15:19:42)
Degrading someone is not necessarily equal to torture. That being said, the fact that the U.S. previously recognized waterboarding as torture and prosecuted it as a war crime should mean something.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Water-Boarding. Its good for ya. You'd be "right" to tell us what you know. You'd be "wrong" not to... We might also blare loud hip-hop music, you will get very lil sleep, and have females interrogators talk down to you...
As for the degrading of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, that may not be torture, but it is inhumane and done simply for the personal pleasure, no more. I think that is morally reprehensible.
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-12-12 15:36:59)
I'd tell you anything you want just to get the hip-hop turned off.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Water-Boarding. Its good for ya. You'd be "right" to tell us what you know. You'd be "wrong" not to... We might also blare loud hip-hop music, you will get very lil sleep, and have females interrogators talk down to you...
lol... agreed....SEREMAKER wrote:
water boarding is fine
we also need to bring back some old school tactics
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~bushnell/ … 80-g4.jpeg
http://spiked-torture-chair.freeonlineg … /13414.jpg
http://www.instigatorblog.com/images/iron_maiden.jpg
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