lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:


You're actually suggesting that it would be impossible to find any reasonability or moderation within the 20 million Muslims living in Europe?
How's about out of all the Muslims I've ever met in Europe absolutely zero of them have ever done anything extremist. They are all moderate normal average people. Pretty well all Muslims in Europe and throughout the world couldn't give the slightest shit what religion you or anyone else is as they have much better and important things to be getting on with. Unfortunately this vast majority don't make for very interesting 'news' stories on FOX.
I said reasonibilty, sensibiblity, and moderation, from the groups in question, the extremist groups. the ones that ARE terrorists, the ones you are planning on appeasing to keep them from blowing you up.
Show me examples of reason, sense or moderation from these groups.
Ok, you don't seem to be getting this. This is about stopping people from becoming extremists in the first place. People aren't suicide bombers from birth, hence it's a reasonable thing to look at what causes people to become terrorists so you can stop it from happening again.

This is solving the disease of Islamic extremism, not the symptoms of it.
BUT you do realize there ARE suicide bombers that exist NOW do you not? THESE people are the ones you seek to appease, so once again give me examples of reason, sense or moderation stemming from these groups that CURRENTLY exist and you think you can reason with.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

lowing wrote:

"European socialists have devised their brilliant plan to combat "Islamophobia" ... "LISTEN" to the 20 million European Muslims, try to UNDERSTAND their problems, and provide solutions to ALLEVIATE their grievances."

"In other words ... find out just what they want, and then give it to them."  http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html under reading assignments.



taken from
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detay … ;bolum=102




Pretty much what I have been saying all along. Appeasement is the Liberal/Socialist answer. How about that.
lol
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6551|SE London

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Why do certain people use the word fascism associated to Islam? 

Islam = religion
Islamophobia = bigotry, stereotyping, prejudice and fascism
Islamophobia implies a fear of Islam, this is not so. I do not fear them
You quite obviously do.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

sergeriver wrote:

Oh, no these Euros are thinking, they don't just try to bomb the Middle East?  They want to talk with Muslims to solve their mutual problems?  What?  The Middle East has proven that the only solution is violence?  That's working out great, isn't it?  Why should they try a different approach in Europe?
Yeah, I guess kissing ass or succumbing to their every whim should do it. Converting to Islam should solve all of their problems. SO knock yourselves out.

You are entertaining a problem that exists that they say warrants the purposeful targeting and killing of innocent women and children. For me, there is no such problem so great to justify this action.  The second you find reasoning, rationality or justification for this is the second you agree with this action. That then, becomes the same second you are as bad as they are.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6641|UK
Appease to me.  Bow to your master euro noobs.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Why do certain people use the word fascism associated to Islam? 

Islam = religion
Islamophobia = bigotry, stereotyping, prejudice and fascism
Islamophobia implies a fear of Islam, this is not so. I do not fear them
You quite obviously do.
Oh I fear them because I will not stand for their intolerant religion being the focal point of my existence?

Look around your countries in Europe, have you ever had a greater influx of Muslim immigrants? Have you ever had a greater call from these same Muslims for more accommodations for them. Have you ever had a greater influence by Islam placed on your cities or in your schools? I am serioiusly asking.

Last edited by lowing (2007-08-04 06:33:32)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

"European socialists have devised their brilliant plan to combat "Islamophobia" ... "LISTEN" to the 20 million European Muslims, try to UNDERSTAND their problems, and provide solutions to ALLEVIATE their grievances."

"In other words ... find out just what they want, and then give it to them."  http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html under reading assignments.



taken from
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detay … ;bolum=102




Pretty much what I have been saying all along. Appeasement is the Liberal/Socialist answer. How about that.
lol
Whats even more funny is, you laugh like it isn't true.
Ruckel
Ruckel for all!
+43|6145|sverige

sergeriver wrote:

Oh, no these Euros are thinking, they don't just try to bomb the Middle East?  They want to talk with Muslims to solve their mutual problems?  What?  The Middle East has proven that the only solution is violence?  That's working out great, isn't it?  Why should they try a different approach in Europe?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6551|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Islamophobia implies a fear of Islam, this is not so. I do not fear them
You quite obviously do.
Oh I fear them because I will not stand for their intolerant religion being the focal point of my existence?
No. You fear them because you associate them with terrorism and with change. Both of which scare you.

lowing wrote:

Look around your countries in Europe, have you ever had a greater influx of Muslim immigrants? Have you ever had a greater call from these same Muslims calling for more accommodations for them. Have you ever had a greater influence by Islam placed on your cities or in your schools? I am serioiusly asking.
There are lots of Muslim immigrants certainly, what's bad about that?

As for having a greater Islamic influence on cities and schools, that depends very much what you mean. There is certainly more Islamic cuisine on offer, which I'm glad about, it's tasty - I was eating kebabs and pide and lahmacun just the other day. There are more mosques around than there were, still not many, which is no bad thing - so long as they abide by the noise pollution laws (which they are required to do), so no calls to prayer waking people up in the middle of the night.

As for influence on schools, here in the UK we have quite a strictly controlled national curriculum. That doesn't change. Religion plays no part in education, outside of religious studies classes or in religious schools - which are still required to teach the national curriculum. Not like certain other places which do let dangerous religious ideas seep into their schooling system *cough* Kansas *cough*.

I don't see what you've got against cultural diversification. The UK in particular is extremely culturally diverse, due to our colonial past. This leads to all sorts of benefits and I have yet to see much in the way of negatives, other than the rape of the welfare state - but that is nothing to do with being Muslim or any other ethnicity/religion.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-08-04 06:44:59)

mikkel
Member
+383|6571

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:


Hmmmmm. even against their will?? You pretty much disgust me.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Pick up a newspaper every now and again, the spread of Islamic law throughout the world is the agenda we are fighting.
You're hilariously narrow-minded.

lowing wrote:

"Hmmmmm. even against their will??"
Who and what are you talking about? I don't think you could be any more ambiguous if you tried. I don't need to pick up a newspaper, I just need you to form a legible post.

If you think all muslims want to see Sharia law in Europe, you're ignorant. Utterly and entirely ignorant. The vast majority of muslims in Europe are against it, but of course you only need some impartial article about how some people are trying to bridge religious gaps to form some completely far off opinion on something you haven't the slightest idea about.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You quite obviously do.
Oh I fear them because I will not stand for their intolerant religion being the focal point of my existence?
No. You fear them because you associate them with terrorism and with change. Both of which scare you.

lowing wrote:

Look around your countries in Europe, have you ever had a greater influx of Muslim immigrants? Have you ever had a greater call from these same Muslims calling for more accommodations for them. Have you ever had a greater influence by Islam placed on your cities or in your schools? I am seriously asking.
There are lots of Muslim immigrants certainly, what's bad about that?

As for having a greater Islamic influence on cities and schools, that depends very much what you mean. There is certainly more Islamic cuisine on offer, which I'm glad about, it's tasty - I was eating kebabs and pide and lahmacun just the other day. There are more mosques around than there were, still not many, which is no bad thing - so long as they abide by the noise pollution laws (which they are required to do), so no calls to prayer waking people up in the middle of the night.

As for influence on schools, here in the UK we have quite a strictly controlled national curriculum. That doesn't change. Religion plays no part in education, outside of religious studies classes or in religious schools - which are still required to teach the national curriculum. Not like certain other places which do let dangerous religious ideas seep into their schooling system *cough* Kansas *cough*.

I don't see what you've got against cultural diversification. The UK in particular is extremely culturally diverse, due to our colonial past. This leads to all sorts of benefits and I have yet to see much in the way of negatives, other than the rape of the welfare state - but that is nothing to do with being Muslim or any other ethnicity/religion.
Once again I do not fear change, good change. But what were are talking about in the long run is not change, but complete conversion. This I resist.

CAIR Chairman Emeritus (Omaer Ahmad) once said "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.".


DO you not feel the increased immigration of Muslim people and culture and ideology into your country will eventually lead to these groups infiltrating your govt.? Would that not lead to great emphasis on accommodating their own people and religious activities over that of English citizens? Does that not eventually lead to a majority of Islamic interests being tended to? Will this not lead, eventually,  to the conversion to Islamic law they want ?


I will also pose another question to you, If Islam is so great, why are all of these immigrants moving away to western civilizations to practice it?
If it is so peaceful, why are they not staying in their own countries and flourishing under Islamic law there? Why are their societies 5000 years behind the rest of the world?

You speak of change and tolerance yet the ones you want to accommodate do not belief in change ( unless it is to Islam ) or tolerance, and you welcome it. Why?

Last edited by lowing (2007-08-04 07:03:42)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6619

m3thod wrote:

Appease to me.  Bow to your master euro noobs.
*provides m3th with virgins and the heads of kittens in order to appease*
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6632|USA
waging war in every muslim dominated country is such a better solution.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6736|Cambridge (UK)

ghettoperson wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Appease to me.  Bow to your master euro noobs.
*provides m3th with virgins and the heads of kittens in order to appease*
Could you appease me too? (but, in my case, you can keep the kittens heads)
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6619

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Appease to me.  Bow to your master euro noobs.
*provides m3th with virgins and the heads of kittens in order to appease*
Could you appease me too? (but, in my case, you can keep the kittens heads)
*unzips*


lowing
Banned
+1,662|6621|USA

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:


What on Earth are you talking about?
Pick up a newspaper every now and again, the spread of Islamic law throughout the world is the agenda we are fighting.
You're hilariously narrow-minded.

lowing wrote:

"Hmmmmm. even against their will??"
Who and what are you talking about? I don't think you could be any more ambiguous if you tried. I don't need to pick up a newspaper, I just need you to form a legible post.

If you think all muslims want to see Sharia law in Europe, you're ignorant. Utterly and entirely ignorant. The vast majority of muslims in Europe are against it, but of course you only need some impartial article about how some people are trying to bridge religious gaps to form some completely far off opinion on something you haven't the slightest idea about.
CAIR Chariman Emeritus (Omaer Ahmad) once said “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” Other members of CAIR have stated that they would like “to see the US under Islamic law.”

From the biggest Islam lobbyist group in America and Canada, this is just here, are you telling me you have not heard any such rhetoric in Europe?
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6736|Cambridge (UK)

ghettoperson wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


*provides m3th with virgins and the heads of kittens in order to appease*
Could you appease me too? (but, in my case, you can keep the kittens heads)
*unzips*


EEEEW!

<*goes to scrub that image out of head*>
mikkel
Member
+383|6571

lowing wrote:

mikkel wrote:

lowing wrote:

Pick up a newspaper every now and again, the spread of Islamic law throughout the world is the agenda we are fighting.
You're hilariously narrow-minded.

lowing wrote:

"Hmmmmm. even against their will??"
Who and what are you talking about? I don't think you could be any more ambiguous if you tried. I don't need to pick up a newspaper, I just need you to form a legible post.

If you think all muslims want to see Sharia law in Europe, you're ignorant. Utterly and entirely ignorant. The vast majority of muslims in Europe are against it, but of course you only need some impartial article about how some people are trying to bridge religious gaps to form some completely far off opinion on something you haven't the slightest idea about.
CAIR Chariman Emeritus (Omaer Ahmad) once said “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” Other members of CAIR have stated that they would like “to see the US under Islamic law.”

From the biggest Islam lobbyist group in America and Canada, this is just here, are you telling me you have not heard any such rhetoric in Europe?
Wow. One quotation from some deranged person.

No, I have in no place said that I haven't heard that kind of rhetoric in Europe. Stop putting words in my mouth. It doesn't lend well to the credibility of your argument. I am saying that the people that this kind of rhetoric comes from are a very, very small minority.

In any event, trying to use that article as an argument for how European socialists want to allow Sharia law in Europe is completely, ridiculously stupid. Trying to bridge gaps and have an understanding does not equal changing the entire rule of law to appease a small ethnic minority. You're an alarmist scaremongerer, and you're trying too hard.

Last edited by mikkel (2007-08-04 07:23:35)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531
So, solving community problems through equal compromise now amounts to giving the bad guys what they want?


No wonder the US is always at war.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

EEEEW!

<*goes to scrub that image out of head*>
And here's me thinking you'd want to scrub the other end.......................
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6551|SE London

lowing wrote:

You speak of change and tolerance yet the ones you want to accommodate do not belief in change ( unless it is to Islam ) or tolerance, and you welcome it. Why?
I speak of change and tolerance because I actually know a great number of Muslim immigrants. They certainly don't seem hell bent on converting everyone to Islam. I have Muslim immigrants in my family, although most of them are actually atheists from Iran.

All of the European countries you speak of are democracies. There will never be enough hardline wahabi Muslims in the UK for any sort of change on the scale you seem to dread so much - it will simply never happen. Europe has an extremely moderate social model, that isn't going to change. Even in the event that Islam became the dominant religion throughout Europe (which could never happen), how would that be any different than the spread of Christianity from the Middle East a couple of millenia ago?

Personally I'm pretty much ambivalent to all this nonsense. You're just paranoid and getting worked up over nothing. It's this sort of xenophobic paranoia and overreaction that is where the real problems come from.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6518|San Diego, CA, USA
"Liberalism is a mental disorder"

-- Michael Savage
jonsimon
Member
+224|6465
Lowing is afraid that muslims are actually reasonable people with reasonable wants and needs. He is afraid that if we begin the process of understanding them, they will not be the crazy extremists he hopes they are. He is afraid of starting a process which can easily be aborted midway because the results might prove him wrong. Instead, he suggests we travel down a road of finality and fatality. He suggests we should assume we understand their motives and assume that our assumptions are infallible. He would rather be firm and unforgiving, regardless of right or wrong. So, he mocks and insults those who would be flexible and adaptive.
David.P
Banned
+649|6244
Dont do it! It'll be just like Hitler and WW2! You may try to appease them but it will backfire and they will invade france then go for britian! God damn weak liberal values! I'm glad the people of the former eastern bloc are'nt as suseptable to this bullshit(Ok except my aunt but she was lured in by a muslim playing it nice at first then she got a shock when they arrived at cairo![I'm not making this up my aunt really was a muslim])
jonsimon
Member
+224|6465

lowing wrote:

CAIR Chariman Emeritus (Omaer Ahmad) once said “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” Other members of CAIR have stated that they would like “to see the US under Islamic law.”

From the biggest Islam lobbyist group in America and Canada, this is just here, are you telling me you have not heard any such rhetoric in Europe?
Hey lowing, I live in dearborn, muslim capital of America. Guess what, this lobby? They're wrong. Muslims are people just like us. They have wants just like ours. They don't want to be our evil overlords, they just want to make money and live happy like we do.

Now, who are you going to believe? A crazy politician with an agenda spouting rhetoric or the firsthand experiences of someone surrounded by the densest population of muslims in America?

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