Pages: 1 2 3 4 5

 

2007-07-23 11:13:03
Home
Section.80
+447|6854|Seattle, Washington, USA

PureFodder wrote:

Home wrote:

One argument that I don't often see mentioned is the Declaration of Independence giving us the right to abolish (essentially revolt) against the government, should it become oppresive and unjust. How are we supposed to do that without guns?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land … nk-sym.jpg
How are you supposed to overthrow the government with small arms? Surely whoever the military side with will be the side that wins, hence the civilians don't have any use for guns when trying to overthrow the government, all you really should be concentrating on is convincing the military to join your cause.
1. You underestimate the power of guerilla warfare.
2. Even if we would lose, I would rather at least attempt guerilla warfare rather than basically just sit around pleading for my rights.
2007-07-23 11:15:11
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6400|The Gem Saloon

Home wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Home wrote:

One argument that I don't often see mentioned is the Declaration of Independence giving us the right to abolish (essentially revolt) against the government, should it become oppresive and unjust. How are we supposed to do that without guns?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land … nk-sym.jpg
How are you supposed to overthrow the government with small arms? Surely whoever the military side with will be the side that wins, hence the civilians don't have any use for guns when trying to overthrow the government, all you really should be concentrating on is convincing the military to join your cause.
1. You underestimate the power of guerilla warfare.
2. Even if we would lose, I would rather at least attempt guerilla warfare rather than basically just sit around pleading for my rights.
on top of that, yes people that shoot at tanks with small arms will get killed.
but the people that know their shit wont......see we have access to many things besides small arms. ALL SORTS of explosives.....hell i have thermite that would eat through the thickest armor.
dont forget we arent just a bunch of hoosiers with shotguns.
2007-07-23 11:17:17
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6633

Parker wrote:

oh my god.

i definitely want to punch a baby right now.





ok, first, Cam......the VT thing. that issues comes from the "Gun Free Zones." bottom line.....the public followed the rules, the criminal didnt and they got shot for it, end of.


whoever is talking about a revolution being impossible because of the military.
if you dont live here, you really dont know what you are talking about. you DONT know what we have access too, and you dont know how we would be able to fight......but that joint will get smoked when it is rolled.


@OP
why do i want guns?

protection.
i know, i know, "if there werent any guns blah blah blah...", but there are, and there is nothing that ANYONE can do about it.
any solutions that are provided will not work.
this topic is like shooting a dead horse
See, you need a gun for that!
2007-07-23 11:22:43
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Home wrote:

One argument that I don't often see mentioned is the Declaration of Independence giving us the right to abolish (essentially revolt) against the government, should it become oppresive and unjust. How are we supposed to do that without guns?
How are you supposed to overthrow the government with small arms? Surely whoever the military side with will be the side that wins, hence the civilians don't have any use for guns when trying to overthrow the government, all you really should be concentrating on is convincing the military to join your cause.
So do you suggest we wait to be captured so that we have the opportunity to plead our case with the lowliest members of the military, or band together to attempt a resistance/insurgency.
I'm suggesting that by fighting the military you'll both get massacred and alienate them from your cause by fighting and killing their friends and colleagues. Red dawn is just a movie!

Parker wrote:

whoever is talking about a revolution being impossible because of the military.
if you dont live here, you really dont know what you are talking about. you DONT know what we have access too, and you dont know how we would be able to fight......but that joint will get smoked when it is rolled.
You think untrained, poorly armed civilians cound defeat your armed forces?

You don't have much confidence in your armed forces. Do you have access to top of the line anti-tank and anti-air weaponry?

Parker wrote:

i know, i know, "if there werent any guns blah blah blah...", but there are, and there is nothing that ANYONE can do about it.
any solutions that are provided will not work.
There's a whole lot you can do about it. The US has 50 times higher gun crime RATE than the UK. A whole hell of a lot can be done about gun crime.
2007-07-23 11:24:50
mafropetee
Member
+18|6150|Altamonte Springs, FL
i have a crappy $30 MP5 airsoft gun... does that count?

ohh and my step mom is a homicide detective and has a closet with a few guns. i dont know whats in there coz she wont show me... but i do know she has a glock that she carries around. i love that thing.
2007-07-23 11:28:46
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

Home wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Home wrote:

One argument that I don't often see mentioned is the Declaration of Independence giving us the right to abolish (essentially revolt) against the government, should it become oppresive and unjust. How are we supposed to do that without guns?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land … nk-sym.jpg
How are you supposed to overthrow the government with small arms? Surely whoever the military side with will be the side that wins, hence the civilians don't have any use for guns when trying to overthrow the government, all you really should be concentrating on is convincing the military to join your cause.
1. You underestimate the power of guerilla warfare.
2. Even if we would lose, I would rather at least attempt guerilla warfare rather than basically just sit around pleading for my rights.
1. You underestimate the power of the US military.
2. Plenty of countries have overthrown their governments without violence. See Poland and the Czech Republic for starters.
2007-07-23 11:39:05
SonderKommando
Eat, Lift, Grow, Repeat....
+564|6666|The darkside of Denver
My Ak-47 and other weapons keeps the goddamn redcoat bastards from sticking their fucking noses in our business. Get over it, Americans love guns, I love guns, and everyone else doesnt. DEAL W/ IT!
2007-07-23 11:43:12
Home
Section.80
+447|6854|Seattle, Washington, USA

PureFodder wrote:

1. You underestimate the power of the US military.
2. Plenty of countries have overthrown their governments without violence. See Poland and the Czech Republic for starters.
1.a. No, I think you overestimate the dedication of our military. They would be extremely reluctant to start opening fire on their own citizens, and there would probably be soldiers within the military that would revolt. They wouldn't just start destroying cities. They could, but they wouldn't.
1. b. Also the citizens have the advantage of living here. I live within 30 minutes of Fairchild AFB, the backbone of Airforce refueling on the west coast. Let's say less that less than half of the people in my city revolt. 100,000 out of 250,000. You don't think 100,000 people (90% of which would be armed) could overtake the base?

2. Yes, and a peaceful revolution would be best. However, I would like to have the option of falling back on armed revolution should peace not succeed.

And just so you know, this is all completly hypothetical, I am not some crazy nutjob that is preparing for revolution as we speak.
2007-07-23 11:51:06
ProteinRage
Hero of the Internet
+15|6476|Everywhere and nowhere
Gun crimes are committed by unlawful citizens who get possession of guns. The kids at Columbine were not of legal age and managed to get a hold of firearms, illegally. The Virgina Tech incident could have been avoided had the appropriate paperwork been filed. The man did possess the firearm legally, but only because of the complacency of another.

The same goes for most robberies and gang related shootings. These guys are buying/stealing unregistered weapons or weapons not registered to them.

Legitimate law abiding gun owners who go through the red tape to register their firearms rarely commit crimes.

I am a California citizen and I own a California legal AR15. (10 round mag, pinned mag release)

https://locanfield.com/MattsAR.jpg

I have never fired at anything other than paper. I am not into hunting or killing things. I own the firearm purely for precision target shooting and personal defense. Precision shooting is a form of recreation. It is a very enjoyable experience if you've ever participated. I also used to work at a gun shop. I am familiar with firearm disassembly, cleaning, shooting, and safety.

Not all firearm owners are irresponsible gun toting hicks that you paint American's to be. Granted, these people do exist.

Lastly, what country would be stupid enough to invade another country where citizens can own firearms? Where essentially, a neighborhood could form a loosely organized militia if need be. Not to say that the United States is a target for invasion at the moment or even in the near future... but the questions holds merit.

Lastly, the old cliche saying "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" seems to come to mind.

Last edited by ProteinRage (2007-07-23 11:55:56)

2007-07-23 11:51:20
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

Home wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

1. You underestimate the power of the US military.
2. Plenty of countries have overthrown their governments without violence. See Poland and the Czech Republic for starters.
1.a. No, I think you overestimate the dedication of our military. They would be extremely reluctant to start opening fire on their own citizens, and there would probably be soldiers within the military that would revolt. They wouldn't just start destroying cities. They could, but they wouldn't.
1. b. Also the citizens have the advantage of living here. I live within 30 minutes of Fairchild AFB, the backbone of Airforce refueling on the west coast. Let's say less that less than half of the people in my city revolt. 100,000 out of 250,000. You don't think 100,000 people (90% of which would be armed) could overtake the base?

2. Yes, and a peaceful revolution would be best. However, I would like to have the option of falling back on armed revolution should peace not succeed.

And just so you know, this is all completly hypothetical, I am not some crazy nutjob that is preparing for revolution as we speak.
Exactly, it's basically going to come down to the military as to what the outcome is. If the military don't actively participate then the government will almost certainly loose, armed civilians or no armed civilians. If the army join with the government, the civilians are screwed. Yes if you could incite 40% of the population to rise up in armed assault you may take the occasional base or two providing they had little air/armour support, but you'd loose vast amounts of your population doing it and ultimately loose the war anyway. The Russians found out all too painfuly what happens when huge numbers of poorly trained, poorly armed people go up against a well armed well equipt modern force.
2007-07-23 11:54:39
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

ProteinRage wrote:

Gun crimes are committed by unlawful citizens who get possession of guns. The kids at Columbine were not of legal age and managed to get a hold of firearms, illegally. The Virgina Tech incident could have been avoided had the appropriate paperwork been filed. The man did possess the firearm legally, but only because of the complacency of another.

The same goes for most robberies and gang related shootings. These guys are buying/stealing unregistered weapons or weapons not registered to them.

Legitimate law abiding gun owners who go through the red tape to register their firearms rarely commit crimes.

I am a California citizen and I own a California legal AR15. (10 round mag, pinned mag release)

http://locanfield.com/MattsAR.jpg

I have never fired at anything other than paper. I am not into hunting or killing things. I own the firearm purely for precision target shooting and personal defense. Precision shooting is a form of recreation. It is a very enjoyable experience if you've ever participated. I also used to work at a gun shop. I am familiar with firearm disassembly, cleaning, shooting, and safety.

Not all firearm owners are irresponsible gun toting hicks that you paint American's to be. Granted, these people do exist.
The main supply of firearms to criminals comes from firearms being stolen from legal gun owners, gun shops and gun distributors. They arm criminals, but they do it indirectly. According to the FBI the majority of firearms used in crimes in the US were made in the US.
2007-07-23 11:57:18
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6627|London, England
Because Chavs need to die. I feel that's just.

I wish I had a gun. At least I could shoot a Criminal in the back after I let him rob me without telling him I have a gun. Man I wish I do that some day. Sometimes you just can't be arsed to have to fight and use effort all the time.

"Yeah yeah take my shit"

*Guy turns around*

*I take out a .45*

*Guy is on the floor with a hole in the back of his head*

*I take my shit back*

Bonus if there are multiple guys jacking you, which means more dead guys on the floor.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2007-07-23 11:58:17)

2007-07-23 12:00:30
ProteinRage
Hero of the Internet
+15|6476|Everywhere and nowhere
Fodder, you're repeating what I said. Unlawful citizens that get a hold of guns illegally are the main source of gun crime and gun related violence. Even if you removed guns from the equation, these unlawful citizens would still be unlawful. They would find a way to hurt others with or without a gun...

Last edited by ProteinRage (2007-07-23 12:00:54)

2007-07-23 12:08:03
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6561

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:


Not at all, just usually the argument is how all us crazy Americans are busy killing each other with our legal guns, then you use a description that paints a different picture all together, reguardless of the fact that he was a legal citizen.
Personally I couldn't care less what you guys do within your own borders.
Ok, so you are counter arguing earlier statements but you don't particularly care, gotcha, I will move on to someone with comething contructive to say.
What does comething mean? Is that some kind of sex toy?
2007-07-23 12:09:33
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6400|The Gem Saloon
ok, im not going to do the whole fucking quote tower deal, but Purefodder, this will mainly be a response to yours.


poorly armed and trained?
saying that EVERY SINGLE soldier would show up to fight his own countrymen, would be a long shot at best. that leaves people trained by the military left to help the civilians. then there are people like me, that already know what they would do in said situation....
poorly armed......no. like i said earlier, black powder and thermite can do wonders to any piece of metal, ANY piece. then the guns......a lot of people here have .22 rifles, that can easily be made into a nice little sniper set up....and thats just .22's, the civilian population also owns full auto weapons just like the military. people here load ammo so its cheaper for them to shoot.
you talk like we would just get squashed.......and we could, but like Home said, i would rather had tried than just give up.



"It is better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep."
2007-07-23 12:13:09
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6655

CameronPoe wrote:

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Personally I couldn't care less what you guys do within your own borders.
Ok, so you are counter arguing earlier statements but you don't particularly care, gotcha, I will move on to someone with comething contructive to say.
What does comething mean? Is that some kind of sex toy?
roflwaffles
2007-07-23 12:53:30
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6721|US
I do not own a firearm yet, but intend to get one in a couple years.

I enjoy target shooting.  Also, as a military member, I feel that it is important to be able to shoot effectively.  As an Air Force guy, it may never be an issue, but I'd still feel better knowing that I am well trained.

I see carrying weapons for protection like life insurance, you never want to use it, but you'll be happy to have it when you need to.  I often carry a pocket knife with a secondary thought towards protection, so getting a pistol is just the logical next step to me.

People seem, all to often, to paint those who carry guns as potentially violent, but MANY gun owners are far more likely to defend themselves or a stranger than attack them.  Anyone hear of the nut who started shooting up some small town Main St. in Oklahoma?  He fired two shots before a legal gun owner stopped him.
2007-07-23 13:07:33
KnowMeByTrailOfDead
Jackass of all Trades
+62|6687|Dayton, Ohio

CameronPoe wrote:

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Personally I couldn't care less what you guys do within your own borders.
Ok, so you are counter arguing earlier statements but you don't particularly care, gotcha, I will move on to someone with comething contructive to say.
What does comething mean? Is that some kind of sex toy?
Now that was just below the belt.  I think Cam is finally succuming to the influence of noobs.  He is becomming one of us.  Oh, ok, a slightly better one of us.
2007-07-23 13:32:39
ReTox
Member
+100|6505|State of RETOXification
Just some comments:

(1) Self Defense - The self defense case only works when the other party isn't armed.  A criminal with a gun is more likely to shoot first when drawn upon and then take your shit than ask for it and wait for you to "put a cap in his ass".  Plus most street gun battles end up with innocents paying the price because these dorks can't shoot for shit.  Spray and pray losers imho.

(2) Hunting - Absolutely 100% acceptable, if you need the food.  I don't support sport hunting just for the sake of the kill.  Take a page from aboriginal peoples and make sure you need to kill.  If you absolutely MUST shoot something till it's dead then choose a good game animal that your local food bank will accept.  In Canada all we need to do is bring the heart and lungs to be tested before wild game meat is accepted.  After that it's deer steaks for the hungry!

(3) Gun Laws - Biggest joke ever as only the lawful follow them.  Think criminals give two shits about gun laws when they're already hijacking your SUV?

(4) Range Shooting - Hella fun.  Ever done it?  You should.  Knowledge is power, and the proper handling and use of a firearm is much more likely to be taught and take hold at a range because of the strict safety procedures.  The more you know about guns the better off you will be, period.  Even if you never own a gun yourself it's still good to know about them just in case.


Discuss?
2007-07-23 13:35:02
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6726|California

1st
2007-07-23 13:48:34
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6786|Great Brown North
wow... another thread of UK/Europe vs north america   imagine that :\

please stop beating this horse, you can barely even tell that it is a horse anymore

i like canadas gun laws more than the US, though both are completely fucking retarded and don't work....



that being said, how do people support their country giving unsupervised access to harmfull/destructive products?

Last edited by krazed (2007-07-23 13:50:19)

2007-07-23 13:50:36
Smitty5613
Member
+46|6533|Middle of nowhere, California

krazed wrote:

wow... another thread of UK/Europe vs north america   imagine that :\

please stop beating this horse, you can barely even tell that it is a horse anymore

i like canadas gun laws more than the US, though both are completely fucking retarded and don't work....
yes the gun laws are retarted....
2007-07-23 13:51:27
Major.League.Infidel
Make Love and War
+303|6484|Communist Republic of CA, USA
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.
2007-07-23 13:54:27
Smitty5613
Member
+46|6533|Middle of nowhere, California
im against gun control, but what is arguing against on BF2S it gonna do? like its gonna change anyones mind....
2007-07-23 13:56:20
Tushers
Noctwisaskfirtush
+224|6691|Some where huntin in Wisconsin
Prediction: 18 pages of 'guns dont kill people...people kill people' circular arguments

which is true

 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard