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2007-07-19 23:15:51
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6788|South Florida
[center]By the time your done reading this i will have made a lot of points disproving god. I only encourage you to challenge my beliefs[/center]

1.
I was watching a few Atheist VS. Theist battles today and i've realized one thing.

90% Of the so called "Facts" and "Proof" that creationists use to support god, is from the bible. Now, correct me if im wrong, but unless the bible has some root of validity, it is not prooven to be any more real then said 'god'. We can trace the sources back as far as possible, tell me, what prooves the bible is real?

If god says the bible is real and the bible says god is real, dont you think thats a bit childish?? Kind of like the chicken and the egg story.

The difference between Evolution and Creation is that Evolution takes most facts from what we see. What we feel. What we experience, and what we as humans ration as truth.

Atheists say evolution is real. Evolution says that ancient fossiles are real. Ancient fossles say that ancient creatures have changed.

The sources for evolution is are much more numerious then those of god.


2.
In ancient times, ancient cultures had not created science. They simply had thought and understanding. Since all humans have curiosity it was only natural to ponder "What makes that big ball of light move across the sky".

Before humans knew it was the Sun and that we were in its orbit, people believed that the sun god dragged it across the sky.

Need i say more?

It's obvious now, that if you told any rational human that a sun god dragged that ball across the sky, they would call you an idiot.

Now, The ONLY reason god exists in the minds of Creationists is because they DO NOT KNOW the answers to there questions. Just like the sun god was to the myans, this god is to the world today.

3.
Just think about it for a second, you are going to stand there, as a rational adult, and tell me that you believe in a magical being, with magical powers, who fucks with humans lives by interveining randomly and not when needed? No really, get past the magic part first!

Magic does not exist. There are laws of physics and science. They exist because they cannot be broken. And to let the 1 exception to those laws be god, is infantile.

4. (This may be my most potent point yet)
Proof. Give me proof.
LISTEN!
If god existed, and wanted man to follow HIM, and only him, then he would show himself. There is not 1 piece of evidence in the world that can prove god.
Not a video tape of god appearing. Nothing.

The ONLY ONLY ONLY shred of evidence people have is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE! and as we know, personal experience has NO TIES to reality. Give a person some LSD and see what his "Personal experiences" are. Probly the fucking ficus in the corner talking to him.

God has never shown himself to me. Ever. Not in the least way. And i know for a fact that he has NEVER shown himself to anybody else. Just like the ficus in the corner never really talked to the guy on an acid trip. It's a self induced illusion!

You cannot have a personal experience in your life and not exagerate it while retelling it. Especially when you think it has some meaning of god.


God wants you to believe in him right?
If god was smart (appearently he is all knowing) he would just prove himself to everyone in the world at the same time and get it over with so he can have another 10 trillion years of warship.

But god is not smart. God is not real. God is fake.

Get over it.

5.
Fear.
Creationists are afraid because one section of the bible states that Denial of god is an eternal sin, and is never forgiven.
So people say "I will believe in god... just incase"
Thats pussy-ish of you! Shame on you! Make up your mind you coward!

Go ahead! If you are an agnostic or a creationist who is realizing what a fool you've been, just say it!!!!!!!! Right now!!!!! Say "god is fake'

Boom there you go, you are now free because no matter what you do, EVER, you are NEVER forgiven even if you perform at your absolute best for the rest of your life... NEVER forgivin.

Now, since you can get over the fact that you will never be forgiven, you mine as well live your life to the fullest before you die.

5.5
Fear Of Death
Heaven is the creation of fear of death so people can sleep at night.


End statements:
I dare you to prove me wrong about atheism. Give me proof and i will fucking... pay you!

and thats a wrap
15 more years! 15 more years!
2007-07-19 23:17:59
Airwolf
Latter Alcoholic
+287|6982|Scotland
pretty much the reasons why I'm an atheist.

that's a nice rant ya got there
2007-07-19 23:19:03
lavadisk
I am a cat ¦ 3
+369|7092|Denver colorado
meh. let them believe. It keeps the Christians nice and kind. and it keeps them from flipping out and killing other people/themselves.

Last edited by lavadisk (2007-07-19 23:19:13)

2007-07-19 23:19:39
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7037|Noizyland

I'm sure everyone already knows this. It's a question of faith. Some people like myself don't have it and some people do. This argument will not sway people into believing one way or the other.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
2007-07-19 23:21:44
tthf
Member 5307
+210|7020|06-01

Ty wrote:

I'm sure everyone already knows this. It's a question of faith. Some people like myself don't have it and some people do. This argument will not sway people into believing one way or the other.
second that
2007-07-19 23:25:06
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6979
Mitch just went against the freedom of religion.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2007-07-19 23:27:41
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6832|Portland, OR, USA
A thread on bf2s will not change anyone's mind.. ever.

That's a proven fact.

This will be no different, Christians will remain Christians... Atheists will remain Atheists.

Believe what you want, just don't knock on my door and tell me that I'm going to Hell.
2007-07-19 23:33:15
Ender2309
has joined the GOP
+470|6834|USA
of course you do realize that many of the stories in the bible, notably noah and his line (his son, ham, specifically,) are mentioned in ancient Egyptian text and writings as the forefathers of Egypt, right?

that would partially validate the bible, no?

edit: PM me to discuss payment, k?

edit 2: here's a nice wiki link to get you started

Ham, Son of noah

Last edited by Ender2309 (2007-07-19 23:42:14)

2007-07-19 23:42:55
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6586|New Haven, CT
Number four can be explained by the fact that God doesn't want to show himself. If he did, everyone would instantly believe in him. The whole point is that you need to believe to recieve salavation, rather than just jump on a bandwagon once you are assured that something is real.

This is just if you want the religious side's (and I believe plausible and sensible) reason for this.
2007-07-19 23:54:52
ReTox
Member
+100|6762|State of RETOXification
The problem with religion is it's "man's" attempt at understanding the divinity of the universe.

I can't prove God exists, nor can I prove love exists... but I feel both.  Personally, the more I learn about the science of the universe the more I'm convinced God does exist and we all live in his petri-dish.


btw - You mentioned Creationism a lot and that is not really fair to group religion and God with those wackos.  Sure they are Christians but anyone who thinks the Earth is only 6000 years old is a nutter!
2007-07-20 00:10:16
twiistaaa
Member
+87|6931|mexico

lavadisk wrote:

meh. let them believe. It keeps the Christians nice and kind. and it keeps them from flipping out and killing other people/themselves.
i will let them believe but i will also tell them they are wrong. but some day it wont be tolerated (when we reach the next level of human acheivement).

athiests tolerating christians leads to christians tolerating extremist christians and muslims which leads to muslims tolerating extremist muslims which leads to them not tolerating anything. if we tolerate nonsense we are just as naive as the people who believe in it. tolerating something leads the tolerated to tolerate something more absurd. yes i said tolerate a few times. tolerate it.

ReTox wrote:

I can't prove God exists, nor can I prove love exists... but I feel both.  Personally, the more I learn about the science of the universe the more I'm convinced God does exist and we all live in his petri-dish.
just like how some hindu feels the love of krishna. you cant both be right. show me why your feelings are more true then his?
2007-07-20 00:11:26
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6912|Washington DC

Don't you think you appear to be contradicting yourself a little here:

Mitch wrote:

Evolution takes most facts from what we see. What we feel. What we experience, and what we as humans ration as truth.

Mitch wrote:

The ONLY ONLY ONLY shred of evidence people have is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE! and as we know, personal experience has NO TIES to reality.
In your first statement (applied to science) experience = truth.  In your second statement (applied to God), experience = false.  That is a bit of a fallacy of logic.  But let me clarify your logic for just a moment.

You see, exposure to "experience" can either be universal (which is experienced by all) or it can be limited (which is seen by one or just a few).

Science has lots of universal experience.  In the scientific world, universal experience is something like the sun's course during the day or playing with a magnet ... limited experience is something akin to a few expert scientists discovering a chemical element that we now call Roentgenium.  Why do you believe in Roentgenium, although you have no personal experience with Roentgenium nor will you ever have experience with it.?  It is simple.  You believe in this chemical element simply because (a) universal experiences predicted by science were experienced by you, and (b) you now believe science.

God has very little universal experience.  Speaking only of Christianity here, God is primarily known through limited experience, and (in general) the experiences with God are limited only for those who are seeking him (or, alternatively if you are a Calvinist, those to whom God has chosen).  Since you are not seeking him, is it no wonder that  "God has never shown himself to me. Ever. Not in the least way."

God does, however, have a few universal experiences that clue you into opening up for limited experiences with him.  Most creationists are inept and clumsy in their debate, and frequently they convey inaccuracies.  But, they are simply attempting to point out a universal experience with God ... so that ... you might seek and receive the limited experiences.

Just because you don't experience God, doesn't mean that God isn't real ... it just means that you haven't opened your eyes to experience God.
2007-07-20 00:13:14
Fen321
Member
+54|6760|Singularity

twiistaaa wrote:

lavadisk wrote:

meh. let them believe. It keeps the Christians nice and kind. and it keeps them from flipping out and killing other people/themselves.
i will let them believe but i will also tell them they are wrong. but some day it wont be tolerated (when we reach the next level of human acheivement).

athiests tolerating christians leads to christians tolerating extremist christians and muslims which leads to muslims tolerating extremist muslims which leads to them not tolerating anything. if we tolerate nonsense we are just as naive as the people who believe in it. tolerating something leads the tolerated to tolerate something more absurd. yes i said tolerate a few times. tolerate it.
What artificial hierarchy are we all climbing? Can't you see you are playing the same game?
2007-07-20 00:21:22
Fen321
Member
+54|6760|Singularity

OrangeHound wrote:

Don't you think you appear to be contradicting yourself a little here:

Mitch wrote:

Evolution takes most facts from what we see. What we feel. What we experience, and what we as humans ration as truth.

Mitch wrote:

The ONLY ONLY ONLY shred of evidence people have is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE! and as we know, personal experience has NO TIES to reality.
In your first statement (applied to science) experience = truth.  In your second statement (applied to God), experience = false.  That is a bit of a fallacy of logic.  But let me clarify your logic for just a moment.

You see, exposure to "experience" can either be universal (which is experienced by all) or it can be limited (which is seen by one or just a few).

Science has lots of universal experience.  In the scientific world, universal experience is something like the sun's course during the day or playing with a magnet ... limited experience is something akin to a few expert scientists discovering a chemical element that we now call Roentgenium.  Why do you believe in Roentgenium, although you have no personal experience with Roentgenium nor will you ever have experience with it.?  It is simple.  You believe in this chemical element simply because (a) universal experiences predicted by science were experienced by you, and (b) you now believe science.

God has very little universal experience.  Speaking only of Christianity here, God is primarily known through limited experience, and (in general) the experiences with God are limited only for those who are seeking him (or, alternatively if you are a Calvinist, those to whom God has chosen).  Since you are not seeking him, is it no wonder that  "God has never shown himself to me. Ever. Not in the least way."

God does, however, have a few universal experiences that clue you into opening up for limited experiences with him.  Most creationists are inept and clumsy in their debate, and frequently they convey inaccuracies.  But, they are simply attempting to point out a universal experience with God ... so that ... you might seek and receive the limited experiences.

Just because you don't experience God, doesn't mean that God isn't real ... it just means that you haven't opened your eyes to experience God.
Can God be everything including you and I and this text?
2007-07-20 00:38:44
ReTox
Member
+100|6762|State of RETOXification

twiistaaa wrote:

just like how some hindu feels the love of krishna. you cant both be right. show me why your feelings are more true then his?
And why can't we be feeling the love of the same entity.  We have different names for the same thing through-out our cultures.  First Nations peoples have a rich pantheon of deities for everything from the wolf, to the trees and the wind.  Is that different that having reverence for Gaea (Mother Earth)?

I guess it all comes down to context and my use of God was misleading when thinking of the Christian/Hebrew/Muslim sense.  It's funny that those three religious all worship the exact same God (Yahweh, Jehovah) but can't get along.

My view of God is that of the divine, the supreme and we have no true understanding of that energy because she exists in a form so foreign to us that it is impossible while locked in our mortal shells.  It's a scientific fact that all matter in the universe resonates at a certain frequency.  I believe our "soul" or what I consider our second self doesn't, it is divine by nature (Hindus feel the same: Namaste is the gestural recognition of the divine in all of us) and resonates at the same frequency as "God".  This is how we feel faith and love.

I can't prove it, but I definitely feel it.
2007-07-20 00:51:24
Funky_Finny
Banned
+456|6395|Carnoustie, Scotland
Christians believe in "God" and "Heaven" as they are scared that when you die, you die, and nothing more. They wish to have some confirmation that they will have some sort of an "afterlife". I, myself, am an Atheist, but I do believe in reincarnation.
2007-07-20 01:32:42
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6944|Disaster Free Zone
1.a)Please supply some examples of where people have claim they have definitive proof of gods existence.
b) Evolution does not disprove creationism, in fact the order of the creationism story is extremely close to evolutionary time line.

2. Ancient cultures did not have the knowledge we had today, but think to the future and we also only know a portion of what really exists. Knowledge and science has to start somewhere and each generation learns from the past. This process of knowledge and learning is hardly any theory to disproves Gods existence. Just because we 'know' God isn't making the sun fly through the sky every day doesn't mean they did not create the current solar system as we know it to work how it does.

3.Why does God have to be 'magical', where does it say anywhere that science is wrong and why can't you comprehend that maybe god created everything to follow the laws of science. If your talking about miracles or unbelievable stories portrayed in the bible, stop reading it so literally, it is full of stories, parables and metaphors to explain things that did not make sense at the time.

4.a)He has shown himself, if the bible and god are true he sent his 'son' to earth. How well did that turn out?
b) God placed humans in charge of the earth so does not interfere.
c) It is your life and gods gives you a choice of what you wish to believe in and what you do.
d) God does not need/want you to worship him, and I doubt it effects him at all, its just the rewards you can receive for your faith.

5. You can't believe 'just in case', You must really believe in him and accept him as your god. You can't fake your beliefs and being a good person and going to church will do you sweet fuck all if you don't really have faith.
5.5. There are millions of people who don't believe in heaven and can easily sleep at night and have no fear of death.

Even if god does not exist, religion is one of they key factors which has influenced human morals and culture. Most of todays laws come from or a variations of the ten commandments and those that aren't laws are morally unacceptable by todays standards. A lot of good has come from religion and as long as religion and its practices of its faith does not interfere with anyone else's life there is nothing to be gained from arguing with those that believes in something you have no proof doesn't exist.

Mitch wrote:

End statements:
I dare you to prove me wrong about atheism. Give me proof and i will fucking... pay you!
Prove God doesn't exist and I'll pay you. Non of your above reasons come anything close to proof and are just your interpretation and beliefs. I'm sorry but your little rant doesn't come close to convincing me and I highly doubt it will do anything to change the mind of any religious person at all.

Find the bones of Jesus or definitively prove he didn't exist and maybe you'll be able to prove Christianity false, and then you can start on the other hundreds of religions out there. Until then, no one really cares and they'll believe in what they want.
2007-07-20 01:44:11
zeidmaan
Member
+234|6678|Vienna

OMG my eyes are opened now.
First of all Mitch you want to prove that GOD is fake not CHRISTIANITY or different religions but you are doing it by looking for flaws in religion ?
Also if you want credibility and to be taken seriously you shouldn't brag about your lack of even the basic knowledge of religions.

Anyway just because science CAN explain something it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Thats the thing I hate most about God bashers and its stupid.
On the other hand just because science CANT explain something it doesnt prove that God exist. Thats equally stupid.

I believe that God exist and that he created everything. He made a universe governed by a set of unimaginably complicated laws of physics. God follows those laws he created and thats why every act of God can be explained by science.
Bible might be man made, Quran might be fake, some religious people might be stupid for saying that world was created 5000 years ago... but God is real.
2007-07-20 01:47:00
gene_pool
Banned
+519|6884|Gold coast, Aus.
"Gravity: Doesn't exist. If items of mass had any impact of others, then mountains should have people orbiting them. Or the space shuttle in space should have the astronauts orbiting it. Of course, that's just the tip of the gravity myth. Think about it. Scientists want us to believe that the sun has a gravitation pull strong enough to keep a planet like neptune or pluto in orbit, but then it's not strong enough to keep the moon in orbit? Why is that? What I believe is going on here is this: These objects in space have yet to receive mans touch, and thus have no sin to weigh them down. This isn't the case for earth, where we see the impact of transfered sin to material objects. The more sin, the heavier something is. "


lol religion
2007-07-20 01:53:24
HeavyMetalDave
Metal Godz
+107|6920|California
I agree with you...

An almighty entity????

That created things that will possibly fail and go to hell????

Now thats just down right sadistic.... and mean.

And I dont want any part in it...

Im very happy without God and his silly rules....
2007-07-20 01:57:51
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6944|Disaster Free Zone

gene_pool wrote:

"Gravity: Doesn't exist. If items of mass had any impact of others, then mountains should have people orbiting them. Or the space shuttle in space should have the astronauts orbiting it. Of course, that's just the tip of the gravity myth. Think about it. Scientists want us to believe that the sun has a gravitation pull strong enough to keep a planet like neptune or pluto in orbit, but then it's not strong enough to keep the moon in orbit? Why is that? What I believe is going on here is this: These objects in space have yet to receive mans touch, and thus have no sin to weigh them down. This isn't the case for earth, where we see the impact of transfered sin to material objects. The more sin, the heavier something is. "


lol religion
Thats not religion, thats an idiot.
2007-07-20 01:57:57
FlemishHCmaniac
Member
+147|6675|Belgium

gene_pool wrote:

"Gravity: Doesn't exist. If items of mass had any impact of others, then mountains should have people orbiting them. Or the space shuttle in space should have the astronauts orbiting it. Of course, that's just the tip of the gravity myth. Think about it. Scientists want us to believe that the sun has a gravitation pull strong enough to keep a planet like neptune or pluto in orbit, but then it's not strong enough to keep the moon in orbit? Why is that? What I believe is going on here is this: These objects in space have yet to receive mans touch, and thus have no sin to weigh them down. This isn't the case for earth, where we see the impact of transfered sin to material objects. The more sin, the heavier something is. "


lol religion
So fat people are huge sinners?
2007-07-20 02:32:16
Shifty
Member
+3|6900|Maine
This debate should just end there's already been 50 of these on this website.

Last edited by Shifty (2007-07-20 02:33:15)

2007-07-20 02:32:23
ReTox
Member
+100|6762|State of RETOXification

gene_pool wrote:

"Gravity: Doesn't exist. If items of mass had any impact of others, then mountains should have people orbiting them. Or the space shuttle in space should have the astronauts orbiting it. Of course, that's just the tip of the gravity myth. Think about it. Scientists want us to believe that the sun has a gravitation pull strong enough to keep a planet like neptune or pluto in orbit, but then it's not strong enough to keep the moon in orbit? Why is that? What I believe is going on here is this: These objects in space have yet to receive mans touch, and thus have no sin to weigh them down. This isn't the case for earth, where we see the impact of transfered sin to material objects. The more sin, the heavier something is. "


lol religion
Pure Science Time:

Gravity exists and it's effects are quite well known (Newtonian Physics being what it is and all).  What you seem to be confusing is the strength of gravity not its effect radius.  Gravity has been proven to work at the same speed as light so the moon orbits the earth not because the earth has more gravity than the sun, but that its effect is felt before the sun.

It takes eight minutes for the effects of a gravitational change in the sun to be felt on earth (if you could detect it).  The moon feels the same effect but because it is so close to the earth our gravity well traps the moon to orbit the earth.  Now both moon and earth are being pulled along their orbits around the sun by the sun.  If the moon was far enough away to be outside the earth's gravity well it would still orbit the sun.

The problem with gravity is that it is very weak compared to other forces, electro-magnetism is billions of times stronger than gravity so we think gravity is actually a feeble force.  Lately we are showing this is not true and that gravity is just as strong as the other forces but it is spread out over the various dimensions in space-time.

Read up on string theory if you want to know more or just go here.
2007-07-20 02:37:07
gene_pool
Banned
+519|6884|Gold coast, Aus.
I admit my quote was incredibly biased (Come on, I'm sure there are totally brain damaged athiests(sp) too). I just thought it was funny.


ReTox wrote:

*insert semi-large post here*
I do know gravity exists, and sin doesn't cause weight, but thanks for the read. I enjoy science.

Last edited by gene_pool (2007-07-20 02:37:26)

 

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