BF2S Forums Yet another suicide in Guantanamo bay

=JoD=Corithus wrote:

Prisoner in Gitmo, waste of flesh, useless, and in need of extermination.  You see difference now?

Er - no. Prisoner in Gitmo: there without trial, there without real attorneys, perhaps without speaking English, and crappy translators. Not there on benefit of doubt ("the American way"). Er...need I explain more, or will you just not concede?

-konfusion

Big McLargehuge wrote:

WASHINGTON -- The suicide rate in local jails fell from 129 per 100,000 inmates in 1983 to 47 per 100,000 in 2002, the Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) announced today.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/press/shspljpr.htm

Suicide in prison is nothing new.

This is true, but still very sad.

I don't think the conditions in Gitmo are specifically less humane than in "regular" prisons. What bothers me about that camp is that people there are held without charges, without access to a lawyer, basically denying them the right to due process. From what I have heard, although they are not soldiers, it is intended that military courts shall judge over them.

Not the way to go, if the US wants to keep the moral high ground. Military courts ruling over civilians ? That's bad...

I am not saying these people are saints. But lots of them were captured under questionable circumstances, and they don't have access to an appeals court...

B.Schuss wrote:

I am not saying these people are saints. But lots of them were captured under questionable circumstances, and they don't have access to an appeals court...

Incorrect. Each detainee "has a right to appeal to our civilian-justice system. — specifically, to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. And if that appeal is unsuccessful, the terrorist may also seek certiorari review by the Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_C … ct_of_2006

Kmarion wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

I am not saying these people are saints. But lots of them were captured under questionable circumstances, and they don't have access to an appeals court...

Incorrect. Each detainee "has a right to appeal to our civilian-justice system. — specifically, to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. And if that appeal is unsuccessful, the terrorist may also seek certiorari review by the Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_C … ct_of_2006

As long as they get a trial first...

I hate to see so many Americans approve of Gitmo. Once upon a time you were a moral compass to many people all over the world. Now suddenly you your selves are comparing your selves with terrorists and saying "if they can do it so can we".
You cant expect morality from terrorists but you should God damn well expect it from your selves, the leaders of the free world. Shame on you.

zeidmaan wrote:

I hate to see so many Americans approve of Gitmo. Once upon a time you were a moral compass to many people all over the world. Now suddenly you your selves are comparing your selves with terrorists and saying "if they can do it so can we".
You cant expect morality from terrorists but you should God damn well expect it from your selves, the leaders of the free world. Shame on you.

It has more to do with Government actions not representing the majority. However, I still can't draw the same moral equivalence between Gitmo and hanging decapitated corpse from bridges. It just isn't the same thing.

zeidmaan wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

zeidmaan wrote:

I hate to see so many Americans approve of Gitmo. Once upon a time you were a moral compass to many people all over the world. Now suddenly you your selves are comparing your selves with terrorists and saying "if they can do it so can we".
You cant expect morality from terrorists but you should God damn well expect it from your selves, the leaders of the free world. Shame on you.

It has more to do with Government actions not representing the majority. However, I still can't draw the same moral equivalence between Gitmo and hanging decapitated corpse from bridges. It just isn't the same thing.

Yeah but they are a bunch of brainwashed crazy terrorists. You are Americans. You shouldn't even do 1/1000 of the shit they do. You are not beating them by becoming them.

I TOTALLY agree with you as an American.  But in fighting an enemy you unfortunately tend to gain some of his traits.  I hate what we've had to do, and I hate the enemy even more for pushing us into doing some of it (most of it is our politicians, what can I say, they're not looking out for me or any other citizens other than themselves). However, while I know we must try to hold the moral high ground as much as we can by being moral, being human demands resiliency and an ability to adapt.  I just wish that adapting didn't mean sacrificing some of our ideals.

=JoD=Corithus wrote:

Ok, I'll try and explain this with little words, as it seems you lack the ability to comprehend.  Soldier good, soldier best of humanity, do good, selfless things for many other people, soldier finest humanity have to offer.  Prisoner in Gitmo, waste of flesh, useless, and in need of extermination.  You see difference now?

You, dumbshit who doesn't understand due process of law, that "soldier" doesn't automatically equal "saint" or how colossally stupid you sound for declaring any group of people is "in need of extermination". It's people like you who almost, against my better judgement and sense of self-preservation, make me wish that US citizens could end up in Gitmo on a more regular basis. We could make it really ironic for you and have you end up there because of an anonymous tip or maybe sell you to the US authorities for a big wad of cash, like a good number of the folks that have ended up there all ready. Of course if you really lucked out and they thought you actually had some sort of value (how that would happen is beyond me) you might get a nice little vacation at one of our many extraordinary rendition resorts. Unfortunately the only amusements there involve water and they're not amusing for you, just the people watching you struggle and choke.

Kmarion wrote:

Should we just shoot them as they come running out with white flags?

The problem is a lot of these folks weren't taken under force of arms and surrendering. Some were kidnapped and sold by Northern Alliance thugs in Afghanistan looking to make some bank off all the money the Coalition is throwing around for people with information on "Al Qaeda operatives" which some seem to interpret as "that jerk Hamish who owes me money" or "that cabdriver over there". This would be a lot more clear-cut if they were being taken in combat, not dumped on the Coalition's doorstep with a note that says "Heer iz Al Kada oprative, send mony pls kthxbye".

Kmarion wrote:

Now for the kicker.
The Geneva convention permits a government to detain enemy combatants until hostilities cease.
My problem is the uncertainty of knowing when we have seen the "end of hostilities" when fighting a group like Al Qaida.

A lot more people should have a problem with this, as it cuts way too close to "We have always been at war with Eastasia" for anyone's good.

Kmarion wrote:

Non US citizens are not protected under the United States Constitution. So they have no right to habeas corpus relief in U.S. courts. However, how we detain and treat detainees is a reflection of the humanity of our Nation.

Actually, here we run into another problem. One, as I understand it, and I may be wrong since I am not a student of constitutional law but here goes, the only provisions of the Constitution and Bill of Rights that non-US citizens are not covered by are those expressly reserved for citizens: office holding, voting, the basic activities of citizen-participatory government. Naturally non-citizens wouldn't be extended those rights. Regarding the basic human rights enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they are indeed covered. You can't deprive a non-US citizen of property, liberty or life without due process just because they're not a US citizen. You can't take someone here on holiday and make them your indentured servant because they weren't born here. You can't rape a non-citizen and say it's not against the law because they have no rights on US soil.

The second problem is, if they're POWs, that means they were engaged in a legitimate military conflict with the United States and as such they shouldn't be on trial for squat unless they've personally done something vile and monstrous that is above and beyond that which a soldier is permitted. The US didn't sentence rank-and-file German soldiers to prison terms; they were only held until the conflict ceased. The only German military members who ended up on trial were those found to have engaged in war crimes or aided the Holocaust. The US government seems to want to have it both ways: they're POWs who have no right to a jury trial or counsel and they're criminals who need to be tried and punished.

If you were a prisoner and had to pick... Gitmo or being held by terrorists... which would you pick?  Id take my chances with Gitmo and US guards... lol...   
Some of the people at Gitmo might be innocent...?  I saw that 2 that were released went right back to fighting in Afghanistan... One of the 2 guys claimed he was a doctor who had nothing to do with terrorism or Al Qaeda or the Taliban until they caught him again...

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

If you were a prisoner and had to pick... Gitmo or being held by terrorists... which would you pick?  Id take my chances with Gitmo and US guards... lol...   
Some of the people at Gitmo might be innocent...?  I saw that 2 that were released went right back to fighting in Afghanistan... One of the 2 guys claimed he was a doctor who had nothing to do with terrorism or Al Qaeda or the Taliban until they caught him again...

Really, I can't imagine why someone held at Gitmo as a suspected terrorist might develop a grudge against the US, it being such a relaxing vacation destination full of the very spirit of human kindness and all that.

Oh, and you might want to rethink your choice there. I don't imagine an American held at Gitmo would fare very well, considering you'd be looked at as a traitor to your own people whether you actually were or not.