nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
I am extremely tired of reading Debate and Serous Talk threads about or hijacked by biased, unbalanced arguments between U.S. and British members over how important each other's country was to winning World war II. Typically, the U.S. proponents proclaim their nation to be the great savior of the world, which would be oppressed in the shackles of the Third Reich if not for their sacrifices and that none of the other nations played an important role except the U.S. Meanwhile, the British claim that the U.S. was nothing more than an opportunistic glory grabbing nation, and the British could easily have held out and won the war without them. These arguments irk me greatly, because it is quite simple to realize that each nation was equally important, and without either nation (or the Soviet Union), the Nazis would have won.

Without the Americans:

America was vital in winning World War II for one reason: it's industry. Early in the war (before they actually declared war), the strong economy and industrial production allowed it to supply much needed war material to the British and Soviet Union. The British shipments were needed, but not crucial as were the Soviet ones. During the initial onslaught of Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Union needed every weapon it could get, since the industry was disrupted during it relocation. The U.S. provided critical supplies to the Soviet Union, and without these, the Germans would most likely have conquered them. If Germany had been able to eliminate the Soviet threat, and gain control the vast natural resources contained within the nation, then they would have been able to devote 100% of their military forces and industrial manufacturing to conquering Britain. Eventually, even if the Germans had worse pilots than the British and suffered greater causalities, they could afford a second Battle of Britain, and would eventually prevail. Once this happened, there would be nothing stopping them from invading, and with their superior production, eventually conquering the British. Once this occurred, the war would have been over, and the Axis would have prevailed.

Without the British:

The British were vital to maintaining a diversion of German forces. They were always enough an annoyance to prevent German High Command from allocating 100% of German military strength toward the Eastern Front. (Rudolf Hess, who landed in Scotland just preceding the invasion, is widely thought to have been pursuing a peace with the British before the commencement of Operation Barbarossa.) If Germany had been able to devote 100% of their military strength to eliminating the Soviet Union, any amount of U.S. aid would have failed to save them. Once the Soviet Union fell, the same as above would happen.

Without the Soviets:

Without the Soviet Union, Germany would have been able to devote 100% of their armed forces and industrial production to attacking Britain immediately. Without the need to produce ground forces readily apparent, more factories could be converted to producing enough aircraft to eliminate the RAF. Once this happened, Britain could have been invaded, and the same outcome as above would have occurred.

Each of the Allies was essential to their victorious war effort. Losing just one would have allowed Nazi Germany to emerge victorious. The U.S. was not the only reason the Allies won, but neither would the war have been won without out them. Realize that your country did play a very important role in the conflict, but no more than it's other two partners.





We are assuming an invasion of the U.S. would have been unfeasible for Germany, and that the Nazis would have been content with Europe, Africa, and Asia.

Please excuse typos. I don't have enough time to proof-read this.
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|6769|San Antonio, Texas
That sounds about right.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6777
all nations failed. WW2 started due to Poland being occupied by a foreign country. Nobody stood up to the soviets and Poland ended up being occupied for the next 40 years.
MrPredictable
Member
+14|6696
Thank you for that post, I was contemplating doing something similar.  I just have one more point to make, if the US had just fed the 'allies' the products of its industry and not actually entered the war the USSR would've been able to take over all of continental Europe within a few years.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
Yes, I do agree. They would have had a much more painful time though, since Germany would not have needed to worry about a successful D-Day type of invasion, and could have continued using forces on one front.

P.S. You are welcome.

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2007-04-22 22:58:29)

Smitty5613
Member
+46|6536|Middle of nowhere, California
u forgot the French ressistence... they saved alot of pilots... and even the Aussies, they helped in the Pacific..

Last edited by Smitty5613 (2007-04-22 23:09:53)

KuSTaV
noice
+947|6521|Gold Coast
Yea, some Pacific and African theatre would be nice, but the European front was good. I gave you karma for de post.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
Thanks for the karma.

The African theater was an extension of the European theater (if the British weren't in there, then there would have seen no need to use one of the best tank generals to hold on to it). I didn't include the Pacific because it wasn't ever seen as the primary theater in the war. Germany was a greater threat the entire war, hence why I concentrated on Germany in the analysis.
Superslim
BF2s Frat Brother
+211|6701|Calgary

BN wrote:

all nations failed. WW2 started due to Poland being occupied by a foreign country. Nobody stood up to the soviets and Poland ended up being occupied for the next 40 years.
Patton wanted to kick their asses as well as Churchill.
N.A.T.O
The People’s Champion
+59|6449|A drop house
Nice work. +1
legionair
back to i-life
+336|6633|EU

Without winter: ...

Without Hitler messing up HQ plans: ...

...

Axis would ...

BTW great post, at least something new.  Get some karma
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
This is assuming everything went as it did except for nations not playing their roles.

Thanks for the karma.
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6496|Latvia
Well, without USA and Brittain we all would be speaking the same language, no, not German, Russian. Since Stalin actually wanted WW2 to happen, but he wanted to attack Germany first and he would have succeded.




..fuckin commies
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6559|CH/BR - in UK

BALTINS wrote:

..fuckin commies
Eh - you mean wanna-be-commies? Because what they had was def. not communism.

-konfusion
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6496|Latvia

konfusion wrote:

BALTINS wrote:

..fuckin commies
Eh - you mean wanna-be-commies? Because what they had was def. not communism.

-konfusion
Well, wanna-be-marxists, but yes, true.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6383|Kyiv, Ukraine

BALTINS wrote:

Well, without USA and Brittain we all would be speaking the same language, no, not German, Russian. Since Stalin actually wanted WW2 to happen, but he wanted to attack Germany first and he would have succeded.

..fuckin commies
There's one major perceptual flaw in this arguement, and it lies in how the Soviets (and China) perceive their "Empires".  The myth started with the "domino theory", which was the basis of American involvement in the Vietnam conflict.  The basis of the myth is that communism, as propogated by the major Communist powers China and Russia, would continue to collapse the whole world like dominos.  To understant the flaw in this logic though, you have to look at the long ancient histories of China and the shorter but no less Empirical history of Russia.

Long story short, neither nation had any intention of world conquest.  Ever.  What they wanted was to be "geographically secure" and were quite aggressive about it.  This means that they would have absolute control within their own established borders, and have puppet control of their immediate neighbors.  The "Iron Curtain" states post-WW2 provided the Soviet Union with exactly what they wanted, no more and no less.  China, however, had to fight tooth and nail for the same kind of border security (Korea and Vietnam conflicts).

That isn't to say they weren't supporting or opportunistic of like-minded philosophies around the world (Cuba Crisis, leftist governments in South America), but in the long run they could care less whether their people got a yearly ration of bananas or not.

However, perpetuating this myth of paranoia about the 'evil Empire' as Reagan put it kept the military industrialists rolling in money whether we were at peace or war.  The truth though is that we kept troops plugging the Fulda gap for about 40 years for absolutely no realistic reason.  The thing is that every right-wing empire needs an "enemy" to motivate the people, to give some sort of reason for being.  If that "enemy" disappears (like it did in 1989), then the empire will focus inwards and begin to rot under its own weight...witness the upsurge of domestic terrorism during Clinton.  The bottom 33% of any given population NEEDS an enemy, when Clinton failed to provide a clear foreign enemy, they took to fighting him.  Now, all is well with our new "GWOT".  America once again has a paper tiger to fight, but the problem is that in our information age this is readily exposed for what it is.  The fantasy is exposed and that makes certain factions of our population even more desperate in their language and actions.

Just thought I'd clear that up...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the topic though, I agree with the premise of the OP.  One thing I would like to clarify is that I don't think it was the OP's intention to disparage the contribution of any minor players in these conflicts.  Every nation, including Canada and Australia, could easily be included in one of the 3 "catagories" mentioned there.  Especially if you include every former colony that threw their lot in with Britain, I think they go from more than just a "minor annoyance" to the Germans to an equal player.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6571
What's funny is I've never seen Brits and Americans hijack threads in this manner.  Ever.

Maybe the OP is seeing things.

Also, the ANZACs and Tobruk were more than a minor annoyance, as were the Australians in the Pacific pre-US involvement (afterwards our importance was largely related to our location).
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6333|New Haven, CT
I figured ANZAC, and the former British or British colonies factored in as Britain, since they were all very closely allied with their parent country at the time.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6781|PNW

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again:

from the innards of the internet wrote:

What if WW2 had been fought online?

It would probably look something like this:


*Hitler[AoE] has joined the game.*
*Eisenhower has joined the game.*
*paTTon has joined the game.*
*Churchill has joined the game.*
*benny-tow has joined the game.*
*T0J0 has joined the game.*
*Roosevelt has joined the game.*
*Stalin has joined the game.*
*deGaulle has joined the game.*
Roosevelt: hey sup
T0J0: y0
Stalin: hi
Churchill: hi
Hitler[AoE]: cool, i start with panzer tanks!
paTTon: lol more like panzy tanks
T0JO: lol
Roosevelt: o this fockin sucks i got a depression!
benny-tow: haha america sux
Stalin: hey hitler you dont fight me i dont fight u, cool?
Hitler[AoE]; sure whatever
Stalin: cool
deGaulle: **** Hitler rushed some1 help
Hitler[AoE]: lol byebye frenchy
Roosevelt: i dont got **** to help, sry
Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me
Roosevelt: get antiair guns
Churchill: i cant afford them
benny-tow: u n00bs know what team talk is?
paTTon: stfu
Roosevelt: o yah hit the navajo button guys
deGaulle: eisenhower ur worthless come help me quick
Eisenhower: i cant do **** til rosevelt gives me an army
paTTon: yah hurry the fock up
Churchill: d00d im gettin pounded
deGaulle: this is fockin weak u guys suck
*deGaulle has left the game.*
Roosevelt: im gonna attack the axis k?
benny-tow: with what? ur wheelchair?
benny-tow: lol did u mess up ur legs AND ur head?
Hitler[AoE]: ROFLMAO
T0J0: lol o no america im comin 4 u
Roosevelt: wtf! thats bullsh1t u fags im gunna kick ur asses
T0JO: not without ur harbors u wont! lol
Roosevelt: u little biotch ill get u
Hitler[AoE]: wtf
Hitler[AoE]: america hax, u had depression and now u got a huge fockin army
Hitler[AoE]: thats bullsh1t u hacker
Churchill: lol no more france for u hitler
Hitler[AoE]: tojo help me!
T0J0: wtf u want me to do, im on the other side of the world retard
Hitler[AoE]: fine ill clear you a path
Stalin: WTF u arsshoel! WE HAD A FoCKIN TRUCE
Hitler[AoE]: i changed my mind lol
benny-tow: haha
benny-tow: hey ur losing ur guys in africa im gonna need help in italy soon sum1
T0J0: o **** i cant help u i got my hands full
Hitler[AoE]: im 2 busy 2 help
Roosevelt: yah thats right ***** im comin for ya
Stalin: church help me
Churchill: like u helped me before? sure ill just sit here
Stalin: dont be an arss
Churchill: dont be a commie. oops too late
Eisenhower: LOL
benny-tow: hahahh oh sh1t help
Hitler: o man ur focked
paTTon: oh what now biotch
Roosevelt: whos the cripple now lol
*benny-tow has been eliminated.*
benny-tow: lame
Roosevelt: gj patton
paTTon: thnx
Hitler[AoE]: WTF eisenhower hax hes killing all my sh1t
Hitler[AoE]: quit u hacker so u dont ruin my record
Eisenhower: Nuts!
benny~tow: wtf that mean?
Eisenhower: meant to say nutsack lol finger slipped
paTTon: coming to get u hitler u paper hanging hun cocksocker
Stalin: rofl
T0J0: HAHAHHAA
Hitler[AoE]: u guys are fockin gay
Hitler[AoE]: ur never getting in my city
*Hitler[AoE] has been eliminated.*
benny~tow: OMG u noob you killed yourself
Eisenhower: ROFLOLOLOL
Stalin: OMG LMAO!
Hitler[AoE]: WTF i didnt click there omg this game blows
*Hitler[AoE] has left the game*
paTTon: hahahhah
T0J0: WTF my teammates are n00bs
benny~tow: shut up noob
Roosevelt: haha wut a moron
paTTon: wtf am i gunna do now?
Eisenhower: yah me too
T0J0: why dont u attack me o thats right u dont got no ships lololol
Eisenhower: fock u
paTTon: lemme go thru ur base commie
Stalin: go to hell lol
paTTon: fock this sh1t im goin afk
Eisenhower: yah this is gay
*Roosevelt has left the game.*
Hitler[AoE]: wtf?
Eisenhower: sh1t now we need some1 to join
*tru_m4n has joined the game.*
tru_m4n: hi all
T0J0: hey
Stalin: sup
Churchill: hi
tru_m4n: OMG OMG OMG i got all his stuff!
tru_m4n: NUKES! HOLY **** I GOT NUKES
Stalin: d00d gimmie some plz
tru_m4n: no way i only got like a couple
Stalin: omg dont be gay gimmie nuculer secrets
T0J0: wtf is nukes?
T0J0: holy ****holy****hoyl****!
*T0J0 has been eliminated.*
*The Allied team has won the game!*
Eisenhower: awesome!
Churchill: gg noobs no re
T0J0: thats bull**** u fockin suck
*T0J0 has left the game.*
*Eisenhower has left the game.*
Stalin: next game im not going to be on ur team, u guys didnt help me for ****
Churchill: wutever, we didnt need ur help neway dumbarss
tru_m4n: l8r all
benny~tow: bye
Churchill: l8r
Stalin: fock u all
tru_m4n: shut up commie lol
*tru_m4n has left the game.*
benny~tow: lololol u commie
Churchill: ROFL
Churchill: bye commie
*Churchill has left the game.*
*benny~tow has left the game.*
Stalin: i hate u all fags
*Stalin has left the game.*
paTTon: lol no1 is left
paTTon: weeeee i got a jeep
*paTTon has been eliminated.*
paTTon: o sh1t!
*paTTon has left the game.*

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-23 19:37:48)

=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6560|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
Just found this on the BBC's World War 1 information pages.

BBC History wrote:

(Referring to what preceeded the war)For centuries, Britain had fought to maintain the balance of power in Europe, to ensure that no state became overmighty. The Kaiser's Germany followed Napoleon's France, and preceded Hitler, as a threat to stability. In particular, Britain was highly sensitive about Belgium. In the hands of an enemy, Belgian ports offered a major threat to the British naval supremacy and hence the security of the British Isles. Britain had no real option but to go to war in 1914. If France had been defeated, Britain would have been faced with the nightmare that since the days of Elizabeth I it had fought to avoid: the continent dominated by a single, aggressive state.
So even if the US should be given for most of the credit for WW2, Britain could claim they have been doing it on many occasions over centuries beforehand.  You've got a lot of catching up to do US, you better hope us little Europeans start squabbling again so you save us once more.

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-04-29 09:49:11)

herrr_smity
Member
+156|6637|space command ur anus
Hitler lost the war for the Germans if he hadn't meddled in the military decision making they could have won
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6776|UK
.... I have never heard a Brit ever say we could of won the war by ourselves. I suggest you go and actually READ peoples posts.

What people have repeatedly stated is that RUSSIA won the war for us and that BRITAIN could have survived as a country even if Europe was taken, Hilter could not have invaded...

Ultimately the Russians would have defeated the Germans. You cant defeat a country that large with such a huge population. As to if Hitler had his whole army... Russia was already fighting around 80% of all German strength, if the other 20% had been entered into the battle most of that 20% would have run back to their Russian comrades, seeing as most of that 20% were Oest divisions.

Last edited by Vilham (2007-04-29 10:08:12)

jonsimon
Member
+224|6505
Russia was the only power that had a chance of defeating the germans alone. Even then, though, it would have been a long and bloody victory. Really France could have ended the nazis when they retook the neutral zone long before war even broke out. Likewise the soviets could have defended poland and made the war that much easier.
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|6702|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

jonsimon wrote:

Russia was the only power that had a chance of defeating the germans alone. Even then, though, it would have been a long and bloody victory. Really France could have ended the nazis when they retook the neutral zone long before war even broke out. Likewise the soviets could have defended poland and made the war that much easier.
Why would they defend Poland when they signed an agreement for territory from Poland?
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6789|Great Brown North

Bubbalo wrote:

What's funny is I've never seen Brits and Americans hijack threads in this manner.  Ever.
ive seen it a bunch of times too, its just not all that common

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