BF2S Forums Eagal and Atheism - Act 1 - Introduction

doublestuforeo wrote:

I am a Christian.  I will not speak for other religions, but I will say this:

The existance of the man, Jesus of Nazareth, is as close to fact as anything else in our history books.  Hundreds of people close to his life, many of which were eyewitnesses to his life, wrote of him.
This does not prove that he is the Son of God.  However, if not, he was a con man the likes of which we have seldom seen.

Wrong.  Find me one account of anyone writing about him that saw, touched, or heard his voice.

The vast majority of people on earth, including myself, have felt the influence of God in their lives.  According to a poll my brother cited me, about 80% of the earths population has said they have directly felt God's influence.  (yes, I know this is a hearsay poll, and I have no proof of it, but I am not trying to prove God's existance with this post anyways.  However, for what its worth, wikipedia has similar polls posted.)

People believing is not proof.  In the last 2000 years I am sure the majority of people on Earth believed a number of outlandish ideas (flat earth, alchemy, bloodletting, etc).

Snipy is completely right.  To suggest that something does not exist because we can not prove it is there is ridiculous.  Most of what we hold as fact in science is actually "theory."  If you can get 80% of the earth's population to suggest that they have felt the influence of a teapot in space, I might lend some credibility to your argument.

To suggest something does not exist because we cannot prove it is REASONABLE.  Belief in a god is UNREASONABLE.  I don't have a problem with you believing in a god, but please don't tell me it is ridiculous not to.

You Atheists pretend that us believers are close minded and gullible, but your post comparing God to a teapot shows how simple minded and ridiculous you are.

It is an analogy.  And a good one at that.  It is not comparing God to a teapot.  If that is what you or anyone exposed to this analogy thinks, you need a lesson in comprehension.  Bertrand Russell's teapot argument attacks the belief system, where despite a lack of knowledge, and logical reason, people still feel a need to believe in a God.

As I said, feel free to believe in whatever you want.  As long as you don't impose your beliefs on me, or harm anyone else for not believing, you are good in my book (the Bible of KEN-JENNINGS).

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-04-05 09:54:44)

doublestuforeo wrote:

The vast majority of people on earth, including myself, have felt the influence of God in their lives.  According to a poll my brother cited me, about 80% of the earths population has said they have directly felt God's influence.  (yes, I know this is a hearsay poll, and I have no proof of it, but I am not trying to prove God's existance with this post anyways.  However, for what its worth, wikipedia has similar polls posted.)

I'm not using your quote to call you out or anything, but 0% of those people have been influenced by God. They're weak minded. God was created by those in power to control their population and take their money (churches).

Look at it this way:

1. There's no idea of a true God and afterlife, and there's anarchy. Kings and such have to use force to control their people.

2. The people believe God exists and people behave better because they think that how they live will get them into heaven. They're not educated and can't wrap their minds around what nature truely is and what our part in the universe is (not that we really know that now anyways). They go to church and worship a false God, pay their taxes, and die. Life is easier for those in power.

I know those examples are kind of lame, but it should get my point across. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but people who believe they've been touched or influenced by God are insane. We make our own decisions and miracles are just coincidences (it was a miracle I wasn't hit by that semi today.. God didn't do it, the laws of probability did it).

jsnipy wrote:

Wow you are very defensive (early 20's at most?). If I was going to put you down, I would make it very apparent.

37 - I just noticed this is junk rather than D&ST... so that's why I was countering your point!

jsnipy wrote:

I'm saying it is easier to give up rather than searching for that which created us -- what or whoever that maybe. Maybe something like the physical signs of an infection exists, maybe you cannot see it .

Why do you think we have given up searching? I would think that fact that so many Atheists post here prove that we do think about it. I treat religion the same as my scientific beliefs..... the best always remember that there is absolutely nothing 100% true... and sometimes some things that were believed 99.99% are proved wrong. But the more I read/hear arguments for theism the more convinced I am there is no deity.... but I do and always will challenge that belief along with the rest.

jsnipy wrote:

The faulty premise you are starting with is that you are smarter than everyone else before you. Usually the first of univesity does this to you.

Where do I say I'm smarter? There are several that do say "I'm right, your wrong, and I know that cuz I'm smarter" on these forums on both sides of arguments but please don't tar everyone that argues against you as having that stand point.

jsnipy wrote:

I'll add to that organized religion as we know it sets a bad example, just like organization that are setup to cure things like cancer. In the end they turn into somethign that just wants to propigate itself at any cost.

Agreed, bad religion is very alike to bad science... unfortunately man is involved in both.
In-fact to be devils advocate I would say that this is a tad more evidence to Atheism as organised religions should be better if one or more was baked by a real deity.

too_money2007 wrote:

I don't believe in any type of God, but what I don't understand is what the universe really is. I doubt it'll ever be figured out, as our species will die eons before we can figure it out.

I mean, if the universe was smaller than an atom at on time (zero time), what was the universe before the big bang? We're only here because there was one part more matter than anti-matter in the beginning, which allowed everything out there to exist.

If it is all some experiment by aliens (the universe in a marble theory), then what made them? Answering that God is what made them and everything is futile, because, what made God? How can there be a beginning when there's nothing that existed before the beginning happened?

Confusing fucking thing, the universe is.

Maybe the theories of Gnostic Christianity may be interesting to you. It defines who God is, and the imperfections in his whole plan. It also states how god was created, and why he created us. I don't believe in it, I'm an Athiest, but the concept is far more plausible and interesting than any other form of Chrisitanity that I have studied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Christianity

However, when investigating complex answers to complex questions. Always remember Occam's Razor:
"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occham%27s_Razor

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

If you can get 80% of the earth's population to suggest that they have felt the influence of a teapot in space, I might lend some credibility to your argument.

You Atheists pretend that us believers are close minded and gullible, but your post comparing God to a teapot shows how simple minded and ridiculous you are.

1. That is whats terrifying about religion, whoever invented god in there head was a fool, no doubt, but when he preached it to the lowly populated world, it spread quickly, then became a standard belief.

2. The story of god and the story of the teapot are the same.

Lets take a look at the greek gods. If i told you there was "a man in a chariot pulling the sun across the sky", what would you say? Bullshit
I project, that in 100-200 years, the same will be said for the pathetic god you believe in now.

If god really wanted more believers, he would show his face. thats enough to make any man believe. But he doesnt, thats because he is fake, and the sooner the world realizes it, the better they will be, i know its probly hard for you guys to admit being wrong, i hate admitting im wrong, but really, you need to.

The conceit is staggering.  Because you have not felt the presence of God, that means that the other 80% who say they have are just weak idiots?  That is certainly the only possible explanation.

sergeriver wrote:

Since I can't see the teapot I don't know if it's there or not, therefore I'm agnostic.

lol - as ever with any religious/thiest question it had gone a tad of subject and semi-agresive encampments set-up.... so nicely timed levity +1

doublestuforeo wrote:

Have you ever proven out a scientific theory Ken?  You just believe what scientists tell you?  It is because, in your experience, what you have seen and heard, it makes logical sense... based on your experiences.  All any of us do is believe.  I believe in the theory of relativity.  I have never experienced it, or done the math myself, but, based on my person experiences and my reason, it makes sense.  Billions of people's personal experience is not proof, but to ignore it out of you superior understanding of their inferiority isn't science, its conceit.

You are all supposing that there is no evidence of God.  Personal experience is evidence.  In reality, personal experience is all any of us really have.

Bertrand Russell, ken jennings, and many of you others believe that you have never felt, see, or experienced in any way the existance of God.  As such, if you havent, it is not possible that anyone else has.  How is that not conciet?

I don't just believe what scientists tell me.  I do not believe in the theory of relativity.  I understand what Einstein is saying, and it seems to make sense as far as I can tell, but I cannot comprehend complex mathematics enough to "believe" the theory.

We can quote numbers like 80% or "billions" of people, but in the end, it proves nothing.  Before Copernicus and Galileo, most people alive thought the Earth was the center of the universe.  Everyone "believed" this to be true.  That does not make it valid.

I never said I was superior or anyone was inferior.  I just pointed out how unreasonable it is to believe in something despite no concrete proof that it is so, and overwhelming evidence that it is not so.

too_money2007 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Since I can't see the teapot I don't know if it's there or not, therefore I'm agnostic.

QFT

Still want to marry me?

Can I ask my wife?

TigerXtrm wrote:

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

Do you believe in magic? Answer this question in your head right now you'll need the answer later.

Here's a little story for you all...

Did you know there is a teapot orbiting the sun in space? Oh yes.
It's too small to pick up on any telescope though.
Actually, theres no evidence proving its really there.
But i believe. Why do i believe?
Well, because theres no evidence proving it ISNT there.
And i was told it's there, so i believe.

Funny thing is that when you tell that to any religious person, they STILL think it makes PERFECT sense. And THAT is the point where they proof they are the total retards we all say they are.

+1 for that awsome post, already use the idea a lot in pretty much any religious discussion but you get +1 for using logic! Go you!

Tiger

+1 for Bertrand Russell's logic.  +1 to Eagal for posting it.

Bubbalo wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

The vast majority of people on earth, including myself, have felt the influence of God in their lives.  According to a poll my brother cited me, about 80% of the earths population has said they have directly felt God's influence.  (yes, I know this is a hearsay poll, and I have no proof of it, but I am not trying to prove God's existance with this post anyways.  However, for what its worth, wikipedia has similar polls posted.)

I think your poll has issues.  80% believe in some form of higher power perhaps, but 80% do no believe in God as Christians understand him.

Like Bubbalo said 20% of the World is agnostic or atheist, therefore 80% believe in some sort of deity.  This is different than saying that 80% of the World has said they have directly felt God's influence.

Last edited by sergeriver (2007-04-05 11:58:17)

sergeriver wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

The vast majority of people on earth, including myself, have felt the influence of God in their lives.  According to a poll my brother cited me, about 80% of the earths population has said they have directly felt God's influence.  (yes, I know this is a hearsay poll, and I have no proof of it, but I am not trying to prove God's existance with this post anyways.  However, for what its worth, wikipedia has similar polls posted.)

I think your poll has issues.  80% believe in some form of higher power perhaps, but 80% do no believe in God as Christians understand him.

Like Bubbalo said 20% of the World is agnostic or atheist, therefore 80% believe in some sort of deity.  This is different than saying that 80% of the World has said they have directly felt God's influence.

Ignore that 80% crap. That's the kind of bs statistic X-tians make up to convince themselves they're right. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the world immediately sees it as false.

sergeriver wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

doublestuforeo wrote:

The vast majority of people on earth, including myself, have felt the influence of God in their lives.  According to a poll my brother cited me, about 80% of the earths population has said they have directly felt God's influence.  (yes, I know this is a hearsay poll, and I have no proof of it, but I am not trying to prove God's existance with this post anyways.  However, for what its worth, wikipedia has similar polls posted.)

I think your poll has issues.  80% believe in some form of higher power perhaps, but 80% do no believe in God as Christians understand him.

Like Bubbalo said 20% of the World is agnostic or atheist, therefore 80% believe in some sort of deity.  This is different than saying that 80% of the World has said they have directly felt God's influence.

Agreed.  The 80% came from a poll cited by an anthropologist lecturing for my brother's master program.

And, as I said, this is no kind of proof.  I never meant it to be proof.  I am only suggesting that billions upon billions of people have claimed to feel God's influence in their lives.

Do you disagree with this statement?

Have you really?  Because I only see as many people offering proof of Atheism as proof of Christianity, the difference being that the flaws in the proofs of Christianity are easier to find and the threads dissappear faster (not to say either proof is better, as anyone trying to prove anything either way is stupid IMHO).

So how about you STFU about being picked on.