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2007-04-03 04:56:30
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7026|SE London

lowing wrote:

It is definitely an uphill battle for you Cam, to defend the Muslims, given their history, current events, and teachings. It is a violent, intolerant religion. IT IS the reason, there is no peace in the Middle East, nor has been for 5000 years.
The fallacy of that statement is so obvious it is laughable. Islam is the reason there has been no peace in the Middle East for the past 5000 years? Yet Islam has only been a religion for less than 1500 years. How does that work?

There has been no peace in the region for a very long time, since long before the establishment of Islam as a religion. It is quite obvious that Islam is not, at the very least, the sole factor in any conflict in the region. There is little comparative evidence that it is a factor at all.
2007-04-03 05:01:09
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

Braddock wrote:

Berster7 wrote:

Any actual figures?
?
Dunno, the best I can come up with is around 21,000 men in the largest division, maybe about as many as there were Nazis, compared to Germans?????


any chance you are gunna show me where Islam is only interested in wiping out Zionist Jews and not the entire race as a whole??

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-03 05:07:37)

2007-04-03 05:05:14
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is definitely an uphill battle for you Cam, to defend the Muslims, given their history, current events, and teachings. It is a violent, intolerant religion. IT IS the reason, there is no peace in the Middle East, nor has been for 5000 years.
The fallacy of that statement is so obvious it is laughable. Islam is the reason there has been no peace in the Middle East for the past 5000 years? Yet Islam has only been a religion for less than 1500 years. How does that work?

There has been no peace in the region for a very long time, since long before the establishment of Islam as a religion. It is quite obvious that Islam is not, at the very least, the sole factor in any conflict in the region. There is little comparative evidence that it is a factor at all.
kinda took my 5000 years a little too literally, since recorded history , let alone Muslim history doesn't go back that far. Cut me a little slack would ya.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-03 05:05:33)

2007-04-03 05:06:20
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7116|UK

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing how many Muslims actively took part in the extermination of Jews in WWII, is there a source that can provide reasonably accurate figures?
I will be glad to answer your question, I trust you are writing right now to answer mine.


Apparently, enough to make it note worthy in history. The article also said that the Muslimswere the biggest colaborators with the Nazis. Wonder why that is?
The article?! One site is totally bias, the other is a Tripod site! For the love of god it's a personal site of some muppet who typed up the biggest pile of horseshit on the plant and what's worse is you're trying to use it as credible evidence!

Surely you can't be this desperate?  This is truly scrapping the barrel.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-04-03 05:09:34
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing how many Muslims actively took part in the extermination of Jews in WWII, is there a source that can provide reasonably accurate figures?
I will be glad to answer your question, I trust you are writing right now to answer mine.


Apparently, enough to make it note worthy in history. The article also said that the Muslimswere the biggest colaborators with the Nazis. Wonder why that is?
The article?! One site is totally bias, the other is a Tripod site! For the love of god it's a personal site of some muppet who typed up the biggest pile of horseshit on the plant and what's worse is you're trying to use it as credible evidence!

Surely you can't be this desperate?  This is truly scrapping the barrel.
I am sorry m3thod, but for you to agree on the neutrality of a site, it must completely agree with you, and that really kinda ties my hands behind my back.
2007-04-03 05:14:26
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7116|UK

lowing wrote:

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:


I will be glad to answer your question, I trust you are writing right now to answer mine.


Apparently, enough to make it note worthy in history. The article also said that the Muslimswere the biggest colaborators with the Nazis. Wonder why that is?
The article?! One site is totally bias, the other is a Tripod site! For the love of god it's a personal site of some muppet who typed up the biggest pile of horseshit on the plant and what's worse is you're trying to use it as credible evidence!

Surely you can't be this desperate?  This is truly scrapping the barrel.
I am sorry m3thod, but for you to agree on the neutrality of a site, it must completely agree with you, and that really kinda ties my hands behind my back.
Look i am all for a good debate, but i personally like to see good sources to reinforce claims.

Anyone that links to Tripod, Geocities and Google groups needs their head looking at.....
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-04-03 05:15:31
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6735|Éire

lowing wrote:

Dunno, the best I can come up with is around 21,000 men in the largest division, maybe about as many as there were Nazis, compared to Germans?????
Where did they serve, were they deployed to Germany or was it throughout Europe? Have you got any better sources than the two in your OP, they are highly questionable, I mean one of them is called 'Christian action for Israel' ...would you accept islamicactionforpalestine.com as a source?
2007-04-03 05:16:24
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7026|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is definitely an uphill battle for you Cam, to defend the Muslims, given their history, current events, and teachings. It is a violent, intolerant religion. IT IS the reason, there is no peace in the Middle East, nor has been for 5000 years.
The fallacy of that statement is so obvious it is laughable. Islam is the reason there has been no peace in the Middle East for the past 5000 years? Yet Islam has only been a religion for less than 1500 years. How does that work?

There has been no peace in the region for a very long time, since long before the establishment of Islam as a religion. It is quite obvious that Islam is not, at the very least, the sole factor in any conflict in the region. There is little comparative evidence that it is a factor at all.
kinda took my 5000 years a little too literally, since recorded history , let alone Muslim history doesn't go back that far. Cut me a little slack would ya.
How about the fact that conflict in the region goes back much further than the establishment of Islam? Surely that demonstrates that the driving forces behind the conflict do not stem from Islam.
2007-04-03 05:20:46
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7000

lowing wrote:

So it was only Zionist Jews that the Muslims conspired to kill with the Nazis??? It was only Zionist Jews that have been persecuted throughout history??
I'll try and break this down:

Palestinians - didn't like Zionists, for rather obvious reasons (think illegal immigrant Mexicans in California/Arizona/etc.).

Nazis - didn't like Jews, for obscure and psychotic reasons.

Jews in general have suffered a lot of persecution throughout history. I don't know where you try to infer that I'm saying the Jews haven't had a rough ride. You seem to imply that the 'rough ride' be automatically transferred onto the Palestinians, for no good reason.

PS I think you'll find the biggest conspirators with the Nazis were Japan and Italy. The native folk of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia did a large share of dealing with 'the Jewish question' I think you'll find also. The Pope even threw his weight behind the Nazi war machine. Your assertion about muslims being the largest conspirator is baseless. I will stand corrected if you can find evidence to the contrary.

PPS Your sources are terrible but I'm willing to address the issues in them.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-03 05:30:36)

2007-04-03 05:21:07
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7116|UK

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

What exactly did you expect the Church to do?? I am not defending them by any means, but could they have done? Excommunicate them!!!

Also, this thread is not about everyone else and what the did or did not do. This thread is about the persecution of the Jews and I felt that I have raised a point that by fighting with the Nazis, the Muslims were all about exterminating the Jews before they used the excuse of the creation of Israel.

If you wanna start a Christian persecution thread by all means do so and I will gladly post, I can't stand them historically as well.
I don't want to derail too much, but if a religious hierarchy wants me to even consider the possibility of their leader as being "infallible", he's gonna need to have the balls to stand up to a dictator.

He'd also need to have the balls to stand up to pedophiles among the clergy.  The Catholic Church's history of ignoring real problems and instead making ridiculous declarations like "Rock and Roll is the work of Satan" makes it quite obvious that it has no real worth in any spiritual sense.

The same goes for much of Islam's clergy.

Faith can be a good thing, but organized religion rarely is....
I agree, but lets face reality.. It WAS HITLER after all, and the vatican was/is powerless to the non-followers. It faced extinction. I can understand the sit back and shut up approach to their problem. The neutral countries that had a defense, however, have no excuse.
It was the fact the pope refused to publicly denounce genocide at all which resonated amongst the Jewish community.  This was the 40's the Catholic Church was still a largely powerful organisation and rather stand up to Hitler toe to toe it maybe could have taken on Hitler in more defined manner.

There is a reason why the Church apologises for its behavior to this day....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … /pius.html

Last edited by m3thod (2007-04-03 05:31:53)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-04-03 05:24:14
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dunno, the best I can come up with is around 21,000 men in the largest division, maybe about as many as there were Nazis, compared to Germans?????
Where did they serve, were they deployed to Germany or was it throughout Europe? Have you got any better sources than the two in your OP, they are highly questionable, I mean one of them is called 'Christian action for Israel' ...would you accept islamicactionforpalestine.com as a source?
]Actually I would, where else would I find their side of the story??? I simply do not agree that THEY are the victims compared to what the Jews had to endure in history.
2007-04-03 05:32:48
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6735|Éire

lowing wrote:

Actually I would, where else would I find their side of the story??? I simply do not agree that THEY are the victims compared to what the Jews had to endure in history.
It's okay to cite far-right or far-left sites for opinions but you can't expect people to take figures or statistics from these kind of sources seriously. You seem to be building a lot of your argument on the 'facts' as they are portrayed in these far from objective websites. I am not attempting to deny that Muslims colluded with the Nazis but I think you're are trying to exploit questionable figures to make it more of a significant issue than it was. You know there were plenty of Jews who conspired with the Nazis and then there's the whole theory that the Zionist movement attempted to exploit the Nazi situation to reinforce its position in the Middle East, why aren't you accusing the Jews of hating the Jews!?

Last edited by Braddock (2007-04-03 05:33:29)

2007-04-03 06:30:29
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I would, where else would I find their side of the story??? I simply do not agree that THEY are the victims compared to what the Jews had to endure in history.
It's okay to cite far-right or far-left sites for opinions but you can't expect people to take figures or statistics from these kind of sources seriously. You seem to be building a lot of your argument on the 'facts' as they are portrayed in these far from objective websites. I am not attempting to deny that Muslims colluded with the Nazis but I think you're are trying to exploit questionable figures to make it more of a significant issue than it was. You know there were plenty of Jews who conspired with the Nazis and then there's the whole theory that the Zionist movement attempted to exploit the Nazi situation to reinforce its position in the Middle East, why aren't you accusing the Jews of hating the Jews!?
As I stated before  and has gone ignored.......The Jews that conspired with the Nazis only did so BEFORE the Hitlers "final solution" was revealed.
2007-04-03 06:50:29
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7026|SE London

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I would, where else would I find their side of the story??? I simply do not agree that THEY are the victims compared to what the Jews had to endure in history.
It's okay to cite far-right or far-left sites for opinions but you can't expect people to take figures or statistics from these kind of sources seriously. You seem to be building a lot of your argument on the 'facts' as they are portrayed in these far from objective websites. I am not attempting to deny that Muslims colluded with the Nazis but I think you're are trying to exploit questionable figures to make it more of a significant issue than it was. You know there were plenty of Jews who conspired with the Nazis and then there's the whole theory that the Zionist movement attempted to exploit the Nazi situation to reinforce its position in the Middle East, why aren't you accusing the Jews of hating the Jews!?
As I stated before  and has gone ignored.......The Jews that conspired with the Nazis only did so BEFORE the Hitlers "final solution" was revealed.
That's only due to the Nazis rejecting their offers of assistance. The muslim collaboration began in '33, also before the "final solution" was decided upon (not revealed - since it wasn't the original plan, it was adopted due to logistical difficulties in deporting all the Jews). Since the original plan of the Nazis was to deport all the Jews in Europe to Madagascar was remarkably simillar to the views of the hardliners in Lehi (who wanted to forcibly deport all Jews worldwide to Israel/Palestine).
2007-04-03 17:42:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7096|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


It's okay to cite far-right or far-left sites for opinions but you can't expect people to take figures or statistics from these kind of sources seriously. You seem to be building a lot of your argument on the 'facts' as they are portrayed in these far from objective websites. I am not attempting to deny that Muslims colluded with the Nazis but I think you're are trying to exploit questionable figures to make it more of a significant issue than it was. You know there were plenty of Jews who conspired with the Nazis and then there's the whole theory that the Zionist movement attempted to exploit the Nazi situation to reinforce its position in the Middle East, why aren't you accusing the Jews of hating the Jews!?
As I stated before  and has gone ignored.......The Jews that conspired with the Nazis only did so BEFORE the Hitlers "final solution" was revealed.
That's only due to the Nazis rejecting their offers of assistance. The muslim collaboration began in '33, also before the "final solution" was decided upon (not revealed - since it wasn't the original plan, it was adopted due to logistical difficulties in deporting all the Jews). Since the original plan of the Nazis was to deport all the Jews in Europe to Madagascar was remarkably simillar to the views of the hardliners in Lehi (who wanted to forcibly deport all Jews worldwide to Israel/Palestine).
And when the final solution was revealed, what did Lehi do, and what did the Muslims do??

 

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