BF2S Forums muslims and hitler

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Also, this thread is not about everyone else and what the did or did not do. This thread is about the persecution of the Jews and I felt that I have raised a point that by fighting with the Nazis, the Muslims were all about exterminating the Jews before they used the excuse of the creation of Israel.

You have raised a valid point, but you must realise that the tensions between Jews and Arabs (not neccessarily Muslims - there is a large Arab Christian population in the region too and has been for a very long time) surrounding immigration into Palestine and the establishement of Israel goes back further than WWII - your point about Muslims using the creation of Israel as an excuse to exterminate them doesn't really stand up. Everything I've ever read about early Jewish immigration to Palestine is quite clear that the Arabs did not really mind. It was only after the scale of immigration and the effects of the policies of the various Zionist agencies had been felt that there was a dramatic shift in opinion of the Jewish immigrants - leading to events such as the Hebron massacre in 1929.

The fact that state sponsored Zionist terror agencies such as Lehi also collaborated with the Nazis and proposed an alliance against the British also does your argument little good.

Your link to the Nazis is a little mis-leading

"Contact with Nazi authorities

German covering letter from January 11 1941 attached to a description of an alleged offer made by Lehi for an alliance with Nazi Germany.In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition in an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) On the same level of importance and in practice, to allow all the Jews wishing so, or about to leave anyway from their place in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, with no restrictions on their numbers, the ability to migrate to Palestine. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar.[10]

On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Der Marvitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[11][12] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to Der Marvitz and Marvitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a French general in the French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivaly between himself and other figures in Vichy: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in Der Marvitz's letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Jerusalem Mufti in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who delivered him in his car in 1939 through Syria to the Iraqi border.

In any case, Der Marvitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response to the offer. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [13] [14] German plans such as the Madagascar Plan eventually failed and ultimately led the Nazis to initiate the Holocaust, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in 1942, but at the time of the Lehi proposal, this was still in the future."

lowing wrote:

nor is it meant to start another "chicken or the egg" thread about Israel and the Palestinians

QFE

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Also, this thread is not about everyone else and what the did or did not do. This thread is about the persecution of the Jews and I felt that I have raised a point that by fighting with the Nazis, the Muslims were all about exterminating the Jews before they used the excuse of the creation of Israel.

You have raised a valid point, but you must realise that the tensions between Jews and Arabs (not neccessarily Muslims - there is a large Arab Christian population in the region too and has been for a very long time) surrounding immigration into Palestine and the establishement of Israel goes back further than WWII - your point about Muslims using the creation of Israel as an excuse to exterminate them doesn't really stand up. Everything I've ever read about early Jewish immigration to Palestine is quite clear that the Arabs did not really mind. It was only after the scale of immigration and the effects of the policies of the various Zionist agencies had been felt that there was a dramatic shift in opinion of the Jewish immigrants - leading to events such as the Hebron massacre in 1929.

The fact that state sponsored Zionist terror agencies such as Lehi also collaborated with the Nazis and proposed an alliance against the British also does your argument little good.

Your link to the Nazis is a little mis-leading

"Contact with Nazi authorities

German covering letter from January 11 1941 attached to a description of an alleged offer made by Lehi for an alliance with Nazi Germany.In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition in an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) On the same level of importance and in practice, to allow all the Jews wishing so, or about to leave anyway from their place in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, with no restrictions on their numbers, the ability to migrate to Palestine. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar.[10]

On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Der Marvitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[11][12] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to Der Marvitz and Marvitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a French general in the French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivaly between himself and other figures in Vichy: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in Der Marvitz's letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Jerusalem Mufti in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who delivered him in his car in 1939 through Syria to the Iraqi border.

In any case, Der Marvitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response to the offer. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [13] [14] German plans such as the Madagascar Plan eventually failed and ultimately led the Nazis to initiate the Holocaust, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in 1942, but at the time of the Lehi proposal, this was still in the future."

How is that misleading? A Jewish body offered to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in exchange for various benefits, much like the Muslims who sided with the Nazis. The only difference is that the Nazis didn't take them up on their offer (it probably would have been better for all concerned if they had - provided the outcome of the war remained the same, which it probably would).

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You have raised a valid point, but you must realise that the tensions between Jews and Arabs (not neccessarily Muslims - there is a large Arab Christian population in the region too and has been for a very long time) surrounding immigration into Palestine and the establishement of Israel goes back further than WWII - your point about Muslims using the creation of Israel as an excuse to exterminate them doesn't really stand up. Everything I've ever read about early Jewish immigration to Palestine is quite clear that the Arabs did not really mind. It was only after the scale of immigration and the effects of the policies of the various Zionist agencies had been felt that there was a dramatic shift in opinion of the Jewish immigrants - leading to events such as the Hebron massacre in 1929.

The fact that state sponsored Zionist terror agencies such as Lehi also collaborated with the Nazis and proposed an alliance against the British also does your argument little good.

Your link to the Nazis is a little mis-leading

"Contact with Nazi authorities

German covering letter from January 11 1941 attached to a description of an alleged offer made by Lehi for an alliance with Nazi Germany.In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition in an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) On the same level of importance and in practice, to allow all the Jews wishing so, or about to leave anyway from their place in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, with no restrictions on their numbers, the ability to migrate to Palestine. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar.[10]

On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Der Marvitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[11][12] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to Der Marvitz and Marvitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a French general in the French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivaly between himself and other figures in Vichy: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in Der Marvitz's letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Jerusalem Mufti in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who delivered him in his car in 1939 through Syria to the Iraqi border.

In any case, Der Marvitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response to the offer. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [13] [14] German plans such as the Madagascar Plan eventually failed and ultimately led the Nazis to initiate the Holocaust, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in 1942, but at the time of the Lehi proposal, this was still in the future."

How is that misleading? A Jewish body offered to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in exchange for various benefits, much like the Muslims who sided with the Nazis. The only difference is that the Nazis didn't take them up on their offer (it probably would have been better for all concerned if they had - provided the outcome of the war remained the same, which it probably would).

I feel it is mis-leading because all of what you cite, took place BEFORE Hitlers "final solution to the Jewish question" was revealed.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-02 04:12:13)

lowing wrote:

I posted this in another thread then decided it might be worth its own.


We could have brought the Muslim world to its knees as it appears they deserved.


http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id10.html

http://christianactionforisrael.org/ant … bnazi.html

So it would seem that the Muslim hatred of the Jews reaches farther out than the establishment of Israel in 1947( 2 years after WW2), as we are lead to believe. It is apparent that down right intolerance of others and their beliefs is at the root of all this non-sense.  The Muslim world actually allied with Hitler to wipe out the Jews. So much for Israel being the reason for this hatred, it is the Jews that are hated, and persecuted.

This has been addressed in more than three threads of mine regarding Israel. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - much like the way that America and other western countries is in bed with the heinously sadistic Saudi Arabian regime. Or the way the US allied with Iraq to initiate the Iran-Iraq war. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians did not believe in the wiping out of all Jews - they just wanted them out of their land. Incidentally Zionists attempted to ally with Hitler during WWII also - they wished to cut a deal that would transport Jews out of Europe, into Palestine, to give birth to the biblical land of Israel once again.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-02 13:55:10)

Fen321 wrote:

All this arguing but how does one reconcile the fact that the Prophet Mohammad married a Jew???

Please explain away how the founder of Islam is not a Jew hater.... (grabs popcorn)

She was captured after the Muslims won a battle over the jews. . . . .she didnt exactly have a crush on Muhammad. . . . being forced into marriage is marriage only in title. . .Although the muslims do revere her!

I think hater is too strong. . . . He resented the Jews. . . .there are tons of passages in the Quran that voice this discontent for the Jews. . .

I think we have established that both Muslim and Jew conspired with the Nazis to try and protect lands they believed to be theirs.

Funneling all the Jews of Europe into one place would have made it easier for Hitler to wipe them all out as the final solution was in his thoughts at the time, no doubt.
And why only the Jews of Europe to be offered sanctuary and not the Russian Jews?

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

All this arguing but how does one reconcile the fact that the Prophet Mohammad married a Jew???

Please explain away how the founder of Islam is not a Jew hater.... (grabs popcorn)

She was captured after the Muslims won a battle over the jews. . . . .she didnt exactly have a crush on Muhammad. . . . being forced into marriage is marriage only in title. . .Although the muslims do revere her!

I think hater is too strong. . . . He resented the Jews. . . .there are tons of passages in the Quran that voice this discontent for the Jews. . .

Please leave these forums. I'm serious.  You make want me to dissolve my eyeballs with acid so i don't have to read your posts.

Why not just address his point?

To deep, or historically unsettling?

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

All this arguing but how does one reconcile the fact that the Prophet Mohammad married a Jew???

Please explain away how the founder of Islam is not a Jew hater.... (grabs popcorn)

She was captured after the Muslims won a battle over the jews. . . . .she didnt exactly have a crush on Muhammad. . . . being forced into marriage is marriage only in title. . .Although the muslims do revere her!

I think hater is too strong. . . . He resented the Jews. . . .there are tons of passages in the Quran that voice this discontent for the Jews. . .

Please leave these forums. I'm serious.  You make want me to dissolve my eyeballs with acid so i don't have to read your posts.

Did you not get you nap today or something. . . .pretty harsh!

I have to put up with your liberal biased opinions, you sure as hell can put up with my rational republican retorts!!!

fadedsteve wrote:

m3thod wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

She was captured after the Muslims won a battle over the jews. . . . .she didnt exactly have a crush on Muhammad. . . . being forced into marriage is marriage only in title. . .Although the muslims do revere her!

I think hater is too strong. . . . He resented the Jews. . . .there are tons of passages in the Quran that voice this discontent for the Jews. . .

Please leave these forums. I'm serious.  You make want me to dissolve my eyeballs with acid so i don't have to read your posts.

Did you not get you nap today or something. . . .pretty harsh!

I have to put up with your liberal biased opinions, you sure as hell can put up with my rational republican retorts!!!

You have raped the word rational and impregnenated it with the spawn of the devil.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Other than intolerance of the JEWS, or for that matter, ANYONE that isn't Muslim, what other reason would the Muslims have to ally with Hitler to aid in genocide of an entire race???? As of yet, Israel had not been established.

The Zionists sided with Hitler BEFORE Hitlers "final solution" had been revealed and you know it.

I am also waiting for some to show me how and why the Jews do not belong in the ME historically. Show me that the JEWS were NEVER run off their land in what is now Israel. I can not say Palestine because, Palestine does not exist except in the minds of the Palestinians. Or I am wrong? Palestine is a conquered country??

You are trying to paint all muslims and arabs as inherently anti-semitic when all the issue is is a territorial one. The mufti of Jerusalem attempted to ally with Hitler because he thought he could gain strategically out of it as a result. In the very same manner that the US armed Al Qaeda in the 70s/80s and furnished Saddam with arms to help him make a proper go of attacking Iran.

The intolerance that was shown by the Palestinians was against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS (as they saw it), not specifically Jews, and the terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi Zionist terror organisations. If I put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian at that time I logically go through these steps:

a) Why are the British letting all these people into our lands? Why aren't they stopping them even though we tell them we don't want them here? The British were supposed to be looking after our interests since we were freed from being part of the Ottoman Empire! This isn't fair.

b) Well if the Brits aren't going to defend my interests then I'm going to have to do it myself. Picks up gun.

c) These illegal immigrants just keep on coming and now they want their own country!!! They have even organised themselves into guerrilla groups and attack ordinary villagers!!! Still no-one helps us!!! Even the League of Nations has decided that we have to give away 30% of our land for these immigrants. Picks up heavy machine gun.

There is no such thing as being conquered Lowing unless you run away. The Palestinians haven't. They're gonna inch every last drop of blood out of their enemy until justice is done, much like the Irish did under their occupation. The Israelis ceded the rights to that particular part of the world when they ran away from the Romans. Those Jews that stayed - I commend them - they lived in peaceful harmony with the other inhabitants of the region until the influx of zionist immigrants in the early 20th century. It's a shame that peaceful co-existence had to be spoiled.

PS Palestine exists in the minds of the international community. Otherwise there would not be any resolutions stating that Israel are acting illegally by occupying the West Bank and Gaza.

Nice dodge.

You seem to be suggesting that there were no Jews in the area before England was in charge.


LOL.


Flashy writing though   +1

Shit, the Jews ceded the region inasmuch as the Arabs did when they started living in refuge camps.

This is not going well for you Cameron.
You consistantly ignore known history. You'd like to think history started in 1947 but it didn't.

The area has exchanged hands multiple times.

Perhaps we should make it fair for everybody and render the area a radioactive wasteland.