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2007-03-21 05:56:27
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6984
The automotive industry is a very competitive and truly global industry. Big names include BMW, Ford, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, GM, Honda, Nissan, Rolls-Royce, Renault, Fiat, Seat, Audi, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Daimler-Chrysler and there are many more. The company that initiated not just the car industry boom but also the very concept of the production line itself is the American company Ford.

Unfortunately Ford and seemingly every other American car manufacturer is finding it difficult to remain competitive in the global market place. They are fading away into obscurity at the hands of superiour car manufacturers in Europe and Japan. Ford posted losses in excess of $20bn alone last year. How can this be?

The EU and Japan currently have the most stringent emissions standards in the world. They have a combined population of approximately 622m people. The new Chinese emissions standards are more stringent than those in Australia, Canada, California, and the United States, but they are less stringent than those in the European Union and Japan. China has a population of 1.315bn people.

The United States and Canada have the lowest standards in terms of fleet-average fuel economy rating, and they have the highest greenhouse gas emission rates based on the EU testing procedure.

So - the US is being left behind by a world that is striving to make sure they are driving environmentally friendly, fuel efficient cars. They're missing out on a market that is at least 2bn people in size. Why have the US been so stubborn when it comes to fuel efficiency and emissions standards? I just don't get it, especially when it is damaging their economy.

Anybody have the answer?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-21 05:57:21)

2007-03-21 06:04:41
Point&Shoot
Tank Whore
+52|6976|Canada
Big American car companies give huge bags of cash to American politicians so that they don't increase the emission and fuel-efficiency standards, so that vehicles can still be built cheaply.  As for Canada, apparently we still want to buy American vehicles (not me VW FTW) so our politicians don't rock the boat and don't change our standards. 

It's all about the almighty buck, and Canadian politicians are a bunch of pussies when it comes to standing up to US policy (see Avro Arrow).
2007-03-21 06:11:48
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6990
I'd just like to point out that whilst Australian standards are behind Europe, we're advancing at the same pace (that is to say, we are consistently 1 or 2 years behind them).  It allows us to learn from their mistakes .

And yes, it has been found that the improvements required work in favour of the industry.
2007-03-21 06:12:36
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7171|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
i'm looking to change my car at the minute, reckon i'm gonna go for a Citroen C1 1.4HDi - 67.2 miles to the gallon (ec combined) and 109 grams CO2 per kilometre..
2007-03-21 07:12:26
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7239|Nårvei

I think this is where the beauty of the lobbyists working the US congress is finally showing us that you will loose big money in the end by saving a little to start with.

I think it was 2005 that Ford Motor Company celebrated it`s 100 years in business making cars and they where the very same year surpassed by Toyota Motor Corporation as the worlds 2nd largest manufacturor of automobiles.

Ford looses money and GM has announced it`s no longer their goal to be the biggest in the world !

It`s sad to see two such important companies in the histrory of US industry is so ignorant to their customers enviromental demands !
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2007-03-21 07:22:22
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7171|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Petrol Guzzlers / High carbon emission vehicles just got another 300 quid a year tax slapped on them in the U.K a couple of hours ago..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2007-03-21 07:23:27)

2007-03-21 07:22:49
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7165|Salt Lake City

Well, let me fill in some of the gap here.  GM/Ford/Dodge do have cars with good gas economy.  The problem is that these companies have, for many years, built their capacity and $$$ around selling full size trucks and SUVs.  Now that gas is getting expensive and staying that way, people are selling their trucks and SUVs for something a bit more reasonable in cost to operate.  This has hurt the major US manufacturers badly.
2007-03-21 08:01:53
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|6997|Oxford
Petrol in the US has always been historically cheaper than in Europe. Why make an engine fuel efficient if you don't need to. Times are changing, and so will their automotive industry except I think they'll jump straight to fuel cell and electric technology rather than pump out more fuel efficient vehicles.
2007-03-21 08:13:15
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7239|Nårvei

Fuel cells are still not a good enough technology for mass produced cars and pure electric cars have been cast away as a solution.

The tech of today in the lead of fuel efficient cars are either hybrids or the fact that most petrol cars can run on regular petrol with a blend of 5 - 10% ethanol, what future tech and science will bring is very exciting to follow !
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2007-03-21 11:01:05
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6874|The Land of Scott Walker

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Well, let me fill in some of the gap here.  GM/Ford/Dodge do have cars with good gas economy.  The problem is that these companies have, for many years, built their capacity and $$$ around selling full size trucks and SUVs.  Now that gas is getting expensive and staying that way, people are selling their trucks and SUVs for something a bit more reasonable in cost to operate.  This has hurt the major US manufacturers badly.
Fuel prices may factor into it, but if one can afford to drive a $40K SUV are fuel prices really a factor?  That has never made sense to me.  Maybe people are buying vehicles they can't quite afford and now they're really feeling the pinch of fuel prices. 

Speaking of Gm, my car is GM built and it gets great mileage.  It's a 1989 Oldsmobile with 210K miles on it and it still gets in the mid 20s in town and 30 highway.  I don't think that's too bad and even if I had the money I wouldn't shell out for a stupid-looking Prius that has no room to haul anything.  Try putting 2 kids carseats and groceries in that little jellybean.   I love my 4x4 midsize SUV because it gives me better visibility and safety when I'm on the road when I have the kids with me.  I can tow things if I need to and it gets decent mileage on the highway.  I try to avoid driving it too much in town because the mileage drops quite a bit. 

I'll never buy a foreign car until I'm at an income level that maintenance costs aren't a factor and I'm buying a BMW M3 or M5 or some such nice car.  Right now, I can do most of the maintenance myself on my domestic made car and the parts don't cost near as much as imports.  I've driven my 89 Olds 37K miles since I bought it 4 years ago and I purchased it for $2K . . . beat that with any import without paying through the nose when things start wearing out.  And you'll have to take the import to a shop and pay them piles of money for labor, too.

I also agree that electric fuel cell cars are not to the point where they can be produced in a cost-effective manner which truly competes with gasoline powered cars.  "Flex fuel" vehicles are really starting to flood the market and I think they will continue to be the better option compared to the cost and inconvenience of fully eletric cars.
2007-03-21 11:53:32
heggs
Spamalamadingdong
+581|6817|New York
Fair enough stingray, but keep in mind this we are dealing with a Global market now. Every large company is global, and needs to be to survive. My dad had an older Toyota Corolla, and did the majority of the work on it himself, as much as he does with his Ford truck. My dad doesn't have a ton of money, and he was able to maintain and do the work himself. It depends on the year of the car and the type (budget, luxury, etc) that dictates how much upkeep will cost.

Personally, my next car will be a hybrid, or a very high mileage car. I agree with you that they are shit for hauling things, but I never plan on hauling anything, so to each his own I suppose.

Overall though, the more emissions and mileage happy a car is the better. Mass consumption of resources needs to be curbed somehow.
Remember Me As A Time Of Day
2007-03-21 12:31:12
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7165|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Well, let me fill in some of the gap here.  GM/Ford/Dodge do have cars with good gas economy.  The problem is that these companies have, for many years, built their capacity and $$$ around selling full size trucks and SUVs.  Now that gas is getting expensive and staying that way, people are selling their trucks and SUVs for something a bit more reasonable in cost to operate.  This has hurt the major US manufacturers badly.
Fuel prices may factor into it, but if one can afford to drive a $40K SUV are fuel prices really a factor?  That has never made sense to me.  Maybe people are buying vehicles they can't quite afford and now they're really feeling the pinch of fuel prices. 

Speaking of Gm, my car is GM built and it gets great mileage.  It's a 1989 Oldsmobile with 210K miles on it and it still gets in the mid 20s in town and 30 highway.  I don't think that's too bad and even if I had the money I wouldn't shell out for a stupid-looking Prius that has no room to haul anything.  Try putting 2 kids carseats and groceries in that little jellybean.   I love my 4x4 midsize SUV because it gives me better visibility and safety when I'm on the road when I have the kids with me.  I can tow things if I need to and it gets decent mileage on the highway.  I try to avoid driving it too much in town because the mileage drops quite a bit. 

I'll never buy a foreign car until I'm at an income level that maintenance costs aren't a factor and I'm buying a BMW M3 or M5 or some such nice car.  Right now, I can do most of the maintenance myself on my domestic made car and the parts don't cost near as much as imports.  I've driven my 89 Olds 37K miles since I bought it 4 years ago and I purchased it for $2K . . . beat that with any import without paying through the nose when things start wearing out.  And you'll have to take the import to a shop and pay them piles of money for labor, too.

I also agree that electric fuel cell cars are not to the point where they can be produced in a cost-effective manner which truly competes with gasoline powered cars.  "Flex fuel" vehicles are really starting to flood the market and I think they will continue to be the better option compared to the cost and inconvenience of fully eletric cars.
There are a lot of trucks and SUVs that are well within the budget of most houeholds.  Yes, there are higher end products which can easily go $40K+, but regardless the gas mileage is poor.
2007-03-21 13:58:14
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6984
This is all very well but the main question is: why haven't US companies restructured to meet the needs of the global vehicle market? It's not like they didn't get any forewarning about this whole sea-change in attitude towards emissions...
2007-03-21 14:08:20
topal63
. . .
+533|7147

CameronPoe wrote:

This is all very well but the main question is: why haven't US companies restructured to meet the needs of the global vehicle market? It's not like they didn't get any forewarning about this whole sea-change in attitude towards emissions...
Their not forward thinking enough, and in many ways they are just fighting for market share survival, consider Ford as an example...

They have relied heavily on revenue from truck sales... this is an example of them fighting for market share in an economy saturated with foreign imports to make up for lack luster car sales. Now that truck sales are down, as well, and losses UP, don't expect a major change in truck fuel-economy (core revenue); or un-styled car lines to compete against the onslaught of foreign imports (very well-styled, NO?). I am thinking - it is hard sell to reverse their corporate mindset on the truck market (their money making core revenue - for domestic sales). IMO

Last edited by topal63 (2007-03-21 14:09:31)

2007-03-21 17:04:56
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|7131|Little Rock, Arkansas

heggs wrote:

Personally, my next car will be a hybrid, or a very high mileage car. I agree with you that they are shit for hauling things, but I never plan on hauling anything, so to each his own I suppose.
Hybrids are bad for the environment. And if you want to work on your vehicle yourself, forget it. Not to mention, if you get in a wreck, you're in pretty serious trouble.

CameronPoe wrote:

This is all very well but the main question is: why haven't US companies restructured to meet the needs of the global vehicle market? It's not like they didn't get any forewarning about this whole sea-change in attitude towards emissions...
I would argue that Ford IS restructured to meet the demands of the global market. You only say they aren't becuase you are looking exclusively at short term data. Look at the brands owned by Ford:

Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Aston Martin (10%)
Jaguar
Daimler (the former division of Jag)
Land Rover
Rover
Volvo
Mazda (33.4%)

Now, each of these brands have well selling automobiles. The key to long term profitability is finding the right mix. Ford will never stop selling trucks. They're profitable and necessary. Besides, Ford and GMC are THE world experts on how to build a pickup truck.

Beyond this, look at the number of fords that are on the road in, say, ireland. Ford transits are EVERYWHERE. The Focus is enormously popular. Lots of volvos too. And Mazdas? You bet. Now, I wouldn't want to try to maneouver my dad's dually pickup through your little roads, so that vehicle doesn't make sense.

Remember, there is no one vehicle that will sell well everywhere. Here in the states, we have wide roads. Everywhere. Citroen doesn't make a vehicle that would sell well here. Neither does Fiat. They're too small, too underpowered, and too expensive for what you get. Here in the states, you have to have some muscle behind your car. The speed limits on the interstate where I live is 70 mph. Most of us drive 80. 80 miles an hour is a terrifying prospect in a little Renault or Peugot. Not to mention, you get hit by something at that speed, you're dead.

Hell, the European car of the year for this year is a Ford, the S-Max. And it's a damn minivan!

I guess part of the debate is that emissions standards are two different things, here in the states and in Europe. We really don't care how much CO2 a car puts out as long as there's minimal smog and particulates. Hence the recent changes in our diesel architecture.

And I have to give Ford credit for one other thing. They are THE cutting egde for bio-renewable fuels. The number of vehicles they make that can run on E85 and biodiesel (among other configurations) is higher than any two other companies in the world. And that's a good thing.
2007-03-21 18:19:46
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6885|The edge of sanity
Actually the  Unions of Labor of the American past are sucking dry Ford Motor company and GM. During the negotiations for thier pensions Ford and GM gave into high pensions. They are now paying dearly for it, and thus we learn that a blance must be set in place between the worker and the CEO.
2007-03-21 19:07:44
VinghNigh
Member
+1|6676
Part of the problem is the lack of ability in the US to look two steps down the line of what they're doing.

i.e.

1.  Takes lots of time and effort and changes to the American Way of Life (TM) to change.
END OF ARGUMENT NO CHANGE


Instead of:

1.  Takes lots of time and effort and changes to the American Way of Life (TM) to change.
2.  However, economically it will be far more sustainable and profitable in the long run, as well as better for the environment and the world in general.
3.  We should therefore invest the money now and bring ourselves in line with the rest of the world.


This concept can be applied to pretty much any aspect of US culture.  Shoot now, panic later (and then shoot some more).
2007-03-21 19:57:40
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6834|North Carolina
Vingh, sadly, a lot of that is true....  and it will likely be the end of our primacy.
2007-03-22 01:45:59
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7239|Nårvei

blisteringsilence wrote:

And I have to give Ford credit for one other thing. They are THE cutting egde for bio-renewable fuels. The number of vehicles they make that can run on E85 and biodiesel (among other configurations) is higher than any two other companies in the world. And that's a good thing.
E85 is a joke as it is now, its a fuel for a few cars only and the irony is that since E85 cars are cheaper people buy them but do they fill them up with E85 ?

No they dont because E85 is more exspensive so they fill them up with regular petrol witch is cheaper and in addition yields more horsepower ....

E85 as it stands is a political joke, a promising future perhaps but a much better solution as of now would be a 5 - 10% mix (E5 or E10) that almost every car in the world can run on without problems !
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2007-03-22 03:23:08
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7110|Disaster Free Zone

Stingray24 wrote:

I love my 4x4 midsize SUV because it gives me better visibility and safety
HAHAHAHA another brain washed twat... SUV's and other 4X4's do need the to pass safety requirements of cars and are in NO way safer.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2007-03-22 03:28:57)

2007-03-22 13:14:38
The#1Spot
Member
+105|6969|byah

DrunkFace wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

I love my 4x4 midsize SUV because it gives me better visibility and safety
HAHAHAHA another brain washed twat... SUV's and other 4X4's do need the to pass safety requirements of cars and are in NO way safer.
Its been proven that they are no safer than cars and in some cases worse. If they had full roll cages then i would reconsider cause the vehicles own weight is its own enemy.
2007-03-22 13:22:49
jonsimon
Member
+224|6924
The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
2007-03-22 13:25:09
jonsimon
Member
+224|6924

Turquoise wrote:

Vingh, sadly, a lot of that is true....  and it will likely be the end of our primacy.
That's not really true at all. Americans look as far down the road as any other western person. The difference is our society's upper classes have a stranglehold on the country, and the wealth gap is only increasing.
2007-03-22 13:51:14
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6971|Texas - Bigger than France

jonsimon wrote:

The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
2007-03-22 16:01:36
PureFodder
Member
+225|6714

Pug wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

The reason the US is so lax on regulation is because the companies are all incredibly greedy and stubborn. The reason the big three are failing is their trust-like competition-negating use of the UAW.
The reason the US is so lax is there hasn't been a dire economic need or persuasive need to change.  Aka gas is still cheap.

And I believe the reason for the downfall has to do with crappy branding - what word do you think of when you think about BMW? Nissan? or Honda?  What do you think of when you think about Ford?  It's a big purchase...Americans have love affairs with their cars...so what you buy is basically your image.  And I don't see Ford's brand (outside of trucks) as filling some sort of niche.
Interestingly in the UK, Ford have some of the best selling cars. The Ford Fiesta has been pretty much in the top 5 selling cars every year since it was launched in the late 70s. Apparently it currently hold the prestigious award in the UK of 'Most often stolen car' I guess as there's so many of them they're hard to track down. I have noticed when I was out there that Americans dont seem to do small cars though. I saw one new mini and one new Beetle in about 2 weeks, everything else was saloon size+.

The Escort was also extremely popular. Recently the Mondeo and Focus have done well.

 

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