BF2S Forums Youtube Banishment/Censorship

Turquoise wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Maybe so, but I would actually argue that the way to lessen extremism is to show the moderates that we aren't going to tolerate the actions of their fundamentalists.  Basically, we need to make it in the best interests of moderates to eliminate extremists on their own terms.

Otherwise, if we just keep treating Muslims like short-tempered psychos, then more and more of them will act like them.  Being politically correct only affirms extremism.

Agreed.  But the video is offensive to all Muslims, the moderate and the extremist as well.

Good point, but moderates should be secure enough in their beliefs to not behave as extremists when offended.

As others have mentioned, clips offensive to Christians have been allowed on Youtube, and the moderate Christians seem to have handled it well.  Why not expect the same from Muslims?

I'm sure moderate Muslims won't act like extremists coz they are offended.  But, we know what extremists can do, then why should we offend Muslims, when it's a time of crisis for the Middle East, and a lot of people's too sensitive about it?

Kmarion wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Wow I expected more from you Serge. You are sitting here talking about the oppression of the Lebanese and at the same time suggesting an opposing view exercising freedom of expression be banished. Christians wouldn't be happy of course but they should respect everyones right to protest. It's ideas like that cause people to die over a cartoon.

Now you compare my viewpoint to the Muslim extremists views? 
I support freedom of speech, but in times like these, do you really think it's OK to offend Muslims?  Aren't we trying to make the difference by being better than extremists?

Did you just read the last sentence? It is the idea that we should shut ourselves down and submit to Islam in order to maintain peace that promotes taking to the streets and rioting.

Ok, now you compare submission to respect.  They are different things my friend.  Sorry, but I think you are confused.

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Agreed.  But the video is offensive to all Muslims, the moderate and the extremist as well.

Good point, but moderates should be secure enough in their beliefs to not behave as extremists when offended.

As others have mentioned, clips offensive to Christians have been allowed on Youtube, and the moderate Christians seem to have handled it well.  Why not expect the same from Muslims?

I'm sure moderate Muslims won't act like extremists coz they are offended.  But, we know what extremists can do, then why should we offend Muslims, when it's a time of crisis for the Middle East, and a lot of people's too sensitive about it?

Because they'll become less sensitive if they're used to being offended.

Look at most American Christians.  They tend to be pretty thick-skinned when it comes to religious criticism.  This is a good thing, because it's a sign of maturity.

Granted, some Christians (like the members of the American Family Association) are whiny douches.

Turquoise wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Good point, but moderates should be secure enough in their beliefs to not behave as extremists when offended.

As others have mentioned, clips offensive to Christians have been allowed on Youtube, and the moderate Christians seem to have handled it well.  Why not expect the same from Muslims?

I'm sure moderate Muslims won't act like extremists coz they are offended.  But, we know what extremists can do, then why should we offend Muslims, when it's a time of crisis for the Middle East, and a lot of people's too sensitive about it?

Because they'll become less sensitive if they're used to being offended.

Look at most American Christians.  They tend to be pretty thick-skinned when it comes to religious criticism.  This is a good thing, because it's a sign of maturity.

Granted, some Christians (like the members of the American Family Association) are whiny douches.

I'm not saying "don't criticize Muslim extremists", I'm saying "let's show respect for any religion, including Islam and Christianism".  Look, Islam is on the spot right now, because of all the troubles with Muslim extremists, and they are a bit sensitive about their religion.  Why should we criticize their beliefs?  We should criticize the extremists, not the whole Muslim community.

sergeriver wrote:

I'm not saying "don't criticize Muslim extremists", I'm saying "let's show respect for any religion, including Islam and Christianism".  Look, Islam is on the spot right now, because of all the troubles with Muslim extremists, and they are a bit sensitive about their religion.  Why should we criticize their beliefs?  We should criticize the extremists, not the whole Muslim community.

I know what you mean, but again, I would say much of these problems result from criticism being silenced within the Islamic communities.  Many Islamic nations are oppressive, and the people aren't allowed a healthy atmosphere of religious discussion.  If this means they get offended by our observations, then so be it.

In my humble opinion, they need to be criticized more, because they obviously haven't done enough to curb their own religious problems.  I know they're sensitive about their religion, but they need to get over themselves.  We don't afford extra congeniality to any other religion, so why should they be given it?

Islam in and of itself has many problems as well.  You even posted that clip of the Syrian ex-Muslim a few days ago.  Wafa Sultan is the kind of person that they need more of in the Middle East.  She had to flee her native country to express herself among other things.

If the Middle East doesn't want the freedom of speech, that's fine.  If they want to curb our own freedom of speech, they can go fuck themselves.

I know I'm harsh about this topic, but you have to be.  You can't give in to these people, because they'll try to run your life if you do.

Kmarion wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You don't have to not respect something in order to question it and that's all he did. But let lets go ahead and take it down another notch. Do you think all those anti-Israel videos you enjoy posting are respectful?

I don't enjoy posting 'em.  I post videos criticizing the terrorist government of Israel.  I never posted a video against Judaism.  Do you see the difference?  Politics and Religion.

I though the issue was respect. More importantly respecting someones opinion no matter what the issue. I must say I am surprised at the lengths you suggest we go for appeasement. I don't care if it's religion, politics, or science... no one should be told they do not have the right to express themselves, especially coming from youtube.

I agree...  but I think the only time we should curb expression is when those Fred Phelps assholes protest military funerals.  Those people should be imprisoned.

sergeriver wrote:

We both think Muslims need to change a lot of things.  That woman is the example they can criticize their beliefs.  But that's their job.  We shouldn't tell them "your Religion sucks".  We should work to help them understand we are not against Islam, but against extremists.  I agree with most of your words, but I'm a bit more cautious when talking about their Religion.  We all need to understand their Religion is not worse than any other Religion.  What they need to do is to punish those who do bad things in the name of that Religion.

I agree with you for the most part.  However, I would argue that Islam is currently the most destructive of the world's major religions.

A thousand years ago, Christianity was.  Islam needs a Reformation.

sergeriver wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

I don't enjoy posting 'em.  I post videos criticizing the terrorist government of Israel.  I never posted a video against Judaism.  Do you see the difference?  Politics and Religion.

I though the issue was respect. More importantly respecting someones opinion no matter what the issue. I must say I am surprised at the lengths you suggest we go for appeasement. I don't care if it's religion, politics, or science... no one should be told they do not have the right to express themselves, especially coming from youtube.

Youtube is a private company, they are free to ban whoever they want.  Pretty much like this forum is.

I said that in the OP. It doesn't mean it is right.

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

1000 civilians dead vs. 2 kidnapped soldiers...not much debate there.

Good point, but it looks like Lebanon is now festering with extremists.  If anyone won that battle, it was Hezbollah.

I hate to say it, but I think Israel would have been better off invading and occupying Lebanon.  They never should have pulled out of Lebanon a few years ago, because it's obvious that Lebanon is incapable of running things without terrorists hijacking the government.

Hezbollah is a party.  Hezbollah did a lot of things to help the people in need in Lebanon.  They also harbor terrorists, which is very wrong.  But what Israel does can be called terrorism too.  The difference is Hezbollah throws rocks and homemade missiles and Israel has the 4th largest army in the World.

In yet more proof of Godwin's Law, I have but one thing to contribute. The Nazi's were a party too. They did some good things for some people in their country. That doesn't mean they're good.

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

We both think Muslims need to change a lot of things.  That woman is the example they can criticize their beliefs.  But that's their job.  We shouldn't tell them "your Religion sucks".  We should work to help them understand we are not against Islam, but against extremists.  I agree with most of your words, but I'm a bit more cautious when talking about their Religion.  We all need to understand their Religion is not worse than any other Religion.  What they need to do is to punish those who do bad things in the name of that Religion.

I agree with you for the most part.  However, I would argue that Islam is currently the most destructive of the world's major religions.

A thousand years ago, Christianity was.  Islam needs a Reformation.

Let's hope they won't have an Inquisition.

LOL... true...  You might be able to say that we're currently witnessing a miniature one in Iraq right now.

blisteringsilence wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Good point, but it looks like Lebanon is now festering with extremists.  If anyone won that battle, it was Hezbollah.

I hate to say it, but I think Israel would have been better off invading and occupying Lebanon.  They never should have pulled out of Lebanon a few years ago, because it's obvious that Lebanon is incapable of running things without terrorists hijacking the government.

Hezbollah is a party.  Hezbollah did a lot of things to help the people in need in Lebanon.  They also harbor terrorists, which is very wrong.  But what Israel does can be called terrorism too.  The difference is Hezbollah throws rocks and homemade missiles and Israel has the 4th largest army in the World.

In yet more proof of Godwin's Law, I have but one thing to contribute. The Nazi's were a party too. They did some good things for some people in their country. That doesn't mean they're good.

Hitler killed millions and he was a Genocide.  Hezbollah has many extremists in its lines, but it also has many moderate people.  They killed a few hundreds against the thousands that Israel killed.  Both sides are very wrong.

Last edited by sergeriver (2007-03-18 11:41:20)

sergeriver wrote:

blisteringsilence wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Hezbollah is a party.  Hezbollah did a lot of things to help the people in need in Lebanon.  They also harbor terrorists, which is very wrong.  But what Israel does can be called terrorism too.  The difference is Hezbollah throws rocks and homemade missiles and Israel has the 4th largest army in the World.

In yet more proof of Godwin's Law, I have but one thing to contribute. The Nazi's were a party too. They did some good things for some people in their country. That doesn't mean they're good.

Hitler killed millions and he was a Genocide.  Hezbollah has many extremists in its lines, but it also has many moderate people.  They killed a few hundreds against the thousands that Israel killed.  Both sides are very wrong.

It is true that not all Hezbollah members are murderers, but neither were all Nazies.  Most of the German people had no knowledge of the Holocaust, and few Nazi soldiers knew much about it either.

Granted, it doesn't make their cause any better knowing this.  I would say Hezbollah is just as hateful as the Nazies when it comes to their ideology towards Israel.