Military force cannot be the last resort in a war, if it is you die. You cannot talk your way out of a fire fightScorpion0x17 wrote:
I find it strange how those that have (been in that type of situation) often don't appear to see the argument that military force should always be the last option, not the first. Exactly because of the situations and decisions that war forces real people to face.Parker wrote:
i just love how the people that feel so strongly about this have NEVER been in that type of situation.........what is it? oh yes, armchair quarterbacks FTW!
As are you young padawan by typing on your keyboard, looking at your monitor, payiong for internet access, buying games from EA. You to are bieng used. We all are. Welcome to the real world.Nyte wrote:
I smell alot of "Respek me cuz I fought in <insert same country here>" users in here.
Too bad you are all being used by large corporations to further their capitalistic agendas. Be proud.
The point is that you don't go to war in the first place, becuase military action is the last option, so you try things like diplomacy, and, hey, what's this, find it actually works.SgtHeihn wrote:
Military force cannot be the last resort in a war, if it is you die. You cannot talk your way out of a fire fightScorpion0x17 wrote:
I find it strange how those that have (been in that type of situation) often don't appear to see the argument that military force should always be the last option, not the first. Exactly because of the situations and decisions that war forces real people to face.Parker wrote:
i just love how the people that feel so strongly about this have NEVER been in that type of situation.........what is it? oh yes, armchair quarterbacks FTW!
If the diplomats want a war, they are going to get a war. The point of this thread is not to debate over the right of war. Also diplomicy can only go so far, I.E. WW1, WW2, Korea, The whole Indo-china war, Grenada, The Falklands, The 1st Gulf war, Kosovo.......... the list goes on and on
I didn't say military action should never be an option - just that it should be the last option.
Using statements like "If the diplomats want a war, they are going to get a war" shows that you're over-eager to go to war.
Using statements like "If the diplomats want a war, they are going to get a war" shows that you're over-eager to go to war.
No, I've been to war, I've watched friends die. Before you make wise ass statments, read all my posts in a thread. I don't like war, but I did do 8yrs in the US Marines. I didn't choose to go to war someone way above my pay grade didScorpion0x17 wrote:
I didn't say military action should never be an option - just that it should be the last option.
Using statements like "If the diplomats want a war, they are going to get a war" shows that you're over-eager to go to war.
I have a question for you marines out there.
Is it clearified beyond any doubt wheter the children were killed by the grenade or not?
If they were killed by the grenade it was a very tragic event caused by military strategies.
But if the children were killed in any other way or circumstance, it's unforgivable and those marines face charges on the right grounds.
Until this fact is established, this debate is futile.
Is it clearified beyond any doubt wheter the children were killed by the grenade or not?
If they were killed by the grenade it was a very tragic event caused by military strategies.
But if the children were killed in any other way or circumstance, it's unforgivable and those marines face charges on the right grounds.
Until this fact is established, this debate is futile.
Last edited by klassekock (2007-03-17 02:55:03)
Actually, I'm past old enough.rawls wrote:
You wouldn't join the amy because your not old enough.
No, they are based on the fact that I feel a member of a military force purported to be defending a populace out be expected to risk his/her life for the populace rather than expecting the populace to risk their life from him/her. My posts show little basis for your comment, and it merely shows that you don't have an adequate response (which doesn't, necessarily, mean that one doesn't exist).rawls wrote:
Your arguments are from pure emotion and don't support fact.
rawls wrote:
People die in war.
I never would have guessed!
Wow, they have access to the speed force? 'Cos, a normal human can't run fast enough to blur human vision.rawls wrote:
The people in the house were most likely like moving blurs,
If you have enough time for a house to house search, it ain't happening that fast.rawls wrote:
action happenng so fast.
And again, we question the validity of crime and punishment.rawls wrote:
As far as calling the soldiers murderers, only God has that right.
Really? I didn't realise! I mean, it's not like my point was that mass carpet bombing was the logical conclusion of your standpoint, or anything.SgtHeihn wrote:
I never said anything about leveling the middle east,
How so?SgtHeihn wrote:
and you end up contradicting yourself at the end,
So, what's the big deal with 9/11?SgtHeihn wrote:
yes its sad that civilians died, but that is what happens in war.
Apart from the fact that I'm not starting threads about how bad anyone is, there's little point in starting a debate unless there's a debate to be had. If everybody were running around going on about how great terrorists were, I'd certainly tell them that I feel they're wrong. But they aren't. We all accept that they're doing the wrong thing (and the only debate becomes one of justification).SgtHeihn wrote:
I don't see you starting threads about how bad suicide bombers are or the death squads that operate unger the guise of being police officers.
Wow, way to show your ignorance there, Captain I Don't Have A Clue What I'm Talking About. I'm just as critical of Australian foreign policy as I am of US foreign policy: news flash, WE'RE IN IRAQ TOO!. But seen as how no-one ever talks about Australia, I rarely have reason to comment on them. You can, however, see me criticising fellow Australians on the Cronulla thread a while back, if you really desperately want to see me doing that.SgtHeihn wrote:
All you come on here to do is bash America and say "Austrialia rules all".
Again, Nuremberg has established that the chain of command is no excuse. He's just lucky that the US is excused from the international criminal court.SgtHeihn wrote:
Edit: Like I said before, I know the Marine in question and he is not a cold blooded murderer, He was following his training.
Not that I agree with him, but pretending to be a Jedi just makes you look like an ass.rawls wrote:
As are you young padawan by typing on your keyboard, looking at your monitor, payiong for internet access, buying games from EA. You to are bieng used. We all are. Welcome to the real world.Nyte wrote:
I smell alot of "Respek me cuz I fought in <insert same country here>" users in here.
Too bad you are all being used by large corporations to further their capitalistic agendas. Be proud.
US armed forces are not trained to kill or harm civilians in any case whatsoever. . . .Bubbalo wrote:
I make my judgement based on the fact that they had no clue who was in there. I never claimed that they knew they were civilians, now or in previous discussions, and so far as I am concerned, it makes little difference.ATG wrote:
I take it you make your judgements on emotions and not from the story:P
This war is an URBAN war!!! Innocents are going to be killed, its virtually unavoidable. . .
I just dont get how 50 fucking Iraqi's can be blown up in a market because they worship one view of Islam. . . .And you liberals dont condemn or care. . . Its all the US armies fault because they cant control the "civil war" thats going on over there, they are just mad that we (USA) are over there blah blah blah blah. . .
Yet US Marines trying to protect themselves and CIVILIAN Iraqi's clearing houses of insurgents/terrorists are assholes cause women and children are imbeded in a high contact zone of operation and happen to die. . . The old saying, "You hang out in a barbershop long enough, you bound to get a haircut!!" Well. . .if you are a civilian and are still living in an area that is filled with the enemy, chances are your at major risk of being hurt and or killed. . . .
We dont make it a business of killing innocents, al-Qaeda and the insurgents do!! If you didnt get it already, they are the bad guys. . . .War is hell, and will always stay that way. If Marines are intentionally killing innocents for fun, then they should be tried and sent to jail!! period. . . . If civilians die as a result of lack of field intelligence, or happen to be in a concentrated area of enemy personel, and die. . . then thats what we call a casualty of combat operations. . . .very regretable but happens to be part of urban combat.
btw. . . Strategies used by our armed forces change (as a result of previous operations) to not only protect our troops but civilians. I can tell you that the US Army DOES NOT put strategies (i.e. using sachel charges in insurgent filled buildings) into place that overtly go after or target civilians. . . .it flat out does not happen. They take every precaution they can to minimise collateral damage. . . .
Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-03-17 07:24:58)
Well in my country you can't shoot your mouth off on TV when you are in the process of being prosecuted for crimes, on account of the fact you might prejudice public opinion and indeed the jury - it's illegal. Why not have the relatives of the Haditha victims on the same program? How does that sound?ATG wrote:
They are facing murder charges. Do you expect them to be silent?CameronPoe wrote:
I've plenty of stomach for justifiable war. They shot the shit out of a car containing 'men of military age' (actually included women and children) when there is still much dispute over whether they were indeed ever fired upon - someone needs to change 'procedure' if you ask me.ATG wrote:
What he did was 100% according to training.
Punished for what: following procedures?
Ridiculous.
You just do not have a stomach for war.
Tbh - you need quite a thick hide to be able to come on TV and justify the killing of civilians when the circumstances are still hotly disputed.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-17 09:49:41)
That's right. British Army personnel in Northern Ireland just luuuuvvved those 'chicken asss' Irishmen back in the 70s and 80s....Major_Spittle wrote:
These are Cameron strategies. Empower your Enemy and get yourself killed or run away like a chicken asss Irishman.
PS @ Brits - I don't condone the civilian casualties caused by the PIRA.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-17 09:55:32)
I used to drive past that sign 'sniper at work' weekly. Its Forkhill in the heart of 'bandit' country.
The police station there, up until recently, was the only Police station in Europe were each shift had to be air lifted by chopper in and out of the station. The station had 100ft high walls and looked like something out of mad max. It stopped the snipers taking shots at the police station from the hills at the valley bellow.
The walls were recently removed thanks to the demilitarization of the border.
The police station there, up until recently, was the only Police station in Europe were each shift had to be air lifted by chopper in and out of the station. The station had 100ft high walls and looked like something out of mad max. It stopped the snipers taking shots at the police station from the hills at the valley bellow.
The walls were recently removed thanks to the demilitarization of the border.
We didn't try diplomacy since 1991?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
The point is that you don't go to war in the first place, becuase military action is the last option, so you try things like diplomacy, and, hey, what's this, find it actually works.
War is hell, hell-ish things happen.
Get your facts inline before attempting to debate. The children were killed with grenades. You seem to think they fired their weapons and killed these innocent children.spacepelle wrote:
they were fired upon by whom? the baby? don't make me laugh...bitterly.GATOR591957 wrote:
Show me an option. They were fired upon. What did you want them to do, send an invitation to be questioned. I forgot. exactly what uniform or flag is Al Queda wearing these days. I would like all of the nay sayers here to explain to me and the US Military how you would fight a war without uniforms to identify the opposition. You guys really need to think this out further than your comfy chairs in front of your computers.spacepelle wrote:
"The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates."
how the hell can you defend that?!?!?!?!??! there is something very wrong with the person killing a baby that is 1 yrs old...
whats even more disturbing is that there are people that think (even here...) that dont think its such a big deal...
you make me sick.
don't tell me that you really believe that the children belonged to al-queda! you cannot be that stupid. and don't tell me that killing children i collateral damage, thats just sick...
and nothing ever can justify the killing of children. even if its a mistake. they should be punished, and in a way i guess that they already are. someone in this thread said that it sucks to be a soldier, thats very true. i'd prolly kill myself if i killed a baby.
You have identified yourself as someone who has not been put in this situation. SO HOW IN THE HELL can you sit and pass judgement on what these soldiers have done??? Get back behind your monitor and play war, because obviously you are mot capable to fight for your country.
Haditha, The facts of the engagement known at this writing:
* Haditha, a Sunni insurgent stronghold, is one of a chain of farm towns on the Euphrates River
* Nov 19, 2005, a roadside bomb struck a Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment supply convoy, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, who was on his second tour of duty in Iraq.
o Just one week earlier, these Marines were briefed by an intelligence officer on how a Force Reconnaissance unit had entered a hospital bedroom tentatively, and the insurgents were lying in bed with AK-47s hidden under the blankets.
+ "Seven Recon Marines were killed that day because they didn't go in hard enough, and didn't lead with grenades"
* Within five minutes of the explosion the Kilo Company Marines came under small-arms fire from the vicinity of two houses.
o Radio communications verify this firefight.
* A taxi with five possible insurgents drove up into the middle of the ambush kill zone.
o The suspected insurgents began to exit the vehicle.
o The Marines shot the suspected insurgents outside of the taxi while simultaneously closing with the enemy at the ambush location.
* A squad under the command of Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich entered the two houses, using normal house-clearing procedures.
o SSGT Wuterich had led his squad through 150 patrols that uncovered weapons caches and roadside bombs, and detained more than 50 suspected insurgents prior to the ambush.
* As dictated by the Rules of Engagement, a door was opened and a grenade was thrown into the room followed by automatic weapons fire, killing the 15 occupants, all afterwards found to be civilians.
* Again following the above ROE procedure, two more civilians were killed in the second house.
o The Marines observed that a rear door was ajar, indicating that someone had fled before they entered.
* Within minutes a UAV was in the sky above the area. It remained aloft all day, catching views of armed conflict. Some screen-shot photos were downloaded either at battalion or regimental headquarters.
* Within 30 minutes an intelligence unit was on the scene and the Marines involved were closely questioned.
o Those in that unit testify that the Kilo Marines' composure and demeanor made it incomprehensible that they could have just participated in a cold-blooded massacre of civilians.
* By nightfall an after-action PowerPoint presentation including the screen-shot photos downloaded from the UAV was sent up the chain of command.
o It fully detailed the day's action, based on the constant radio communications, testimony of those present as participants and after-action investigators, and the data revealed minute-by-minute by the UAV.
o Within days, officers from up the entire chain of command were fully briefed.
+ They concluded that the evidence provided them proved that the actions were fully justified by the circumstances on the ground at the time.
+ Nov. 20, a U.S. Marine spokesman reported: "A U.S. Marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another.''
* 2nd Lt. Kallop, the platoon commander, nominated SSGT Wuterich for the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal with combat "V:.
o Battalion approved the award and submitted it to 1st MarDiv.
o The award was withheld after Pentagon leaks presented the Haditha action unfavorably, without documentation or background on insurgent tactics commonly used against these Marines.
* Haditha, a Sunni insurgent stronghold, is one of a chain of farm towns on the Euphrates River
* Nov 19, 2005, a roadside bomb struck a Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment supply convoy, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, who was on his second tour of duty in Iraq.
o Just one week earlier, these Marines were briefed by an intelligence officer on how a Force Reconnaissance unit had entered a hospital bedroom tentatively, and the insurgents were lying in bed with AK-47s hidden under the blankets.
+ "Seven Recon Marines were killed that day because they didn't go in hard enough, and didn't lead with grenades"
* Within five minutes of the explosion the Kilo Company Marines came under small-arms fire from the vicinity of two houses.
o Radio communications verify this firefight.
* A taxi with five possible insurgents drove up into the middle of the ambush kill zone.
o The suspected insurgents began to exit the vehicle.
o The Marines shot the suspected insurgents outside of the taxi while simultaneously closing with the enemy at the ambush location.
* A squad under the command of Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich entered the two houses, using normal house-clearing procedures.
o SSGT Wuterich had led his squad through 150 patrols that uncovered weapons caches and roadside bombs, and detained more than 50 suspected insurgents prior to the ambush.
* As dictated by the Rules of Engagement, a door was opened and a grenade was thrown into the room followed by automatic weapons fire, killing the 15 occupants, all afterwards found to be civilians.
* Again following the above ROE procedure, two more civilians were killed in the second house.
o The Marines observed that a rear door was ajar, indicating that someone had fled before they entered.
* Within minutes a UAV was in the sky above the area. It remained aloft all day, catching views of armed conflict. Some screen-shot photos were downloaded either at battalion or regimental headquarters.
* Within 30 minutes an intelligence unit was on the scene and the Marines involved were closely questioned.
o Those in that unit testify that the Kilo Marines' composure and demeanor made it incomprehensible that they could have just participated in a cold-blooded massacre of civilians.
* By nightfall an after-action PowerPoint presentation including the screen-shot photos downloaded from the UAV was sent up the chain of command.
o It fully detailed the day's action, based on the constant radio communications, testimony of those present as participants and after-action investigators, and the data revealed minute-by-minute by the UAV.
o Within days, officers from up the entire chain of command were fully briefed.
+ They concluded that the evidence provided them proved that the actions were fully justified by the circumstances on the ground at the time.
+ Nov. 20, a U.S. Marine spokesman reported: "A U.S. Marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another.''
* 2nd Lt. Kallop, the platoon commander, nominated SSGT Wuterich for the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal with combat "V:.
o Battalion approved the award and submitted it to 1st MarDiv.
o The award was withheld after Pentagon leaks presented the Haditha action unfavorably, without documentation or background on insurgent tactics commonly used against these Marines.
Sounds acceptable to me.
And a question for the CameronPoe types:
Are not insurgents civilians?
Same difference. Those civilians may have been combatants a few minutes later, and visa versa.
The civilians should report suspected insurgent / or trouble makers to the coalition authorities, if not and they live in an area where those people operate, then they need be preparred to become " collateral damge ".
You can't come complaining about getting "cleared " by Marines when a terrorist motherfucker is firing an ak47 from your house, sorry.
And a question for the CameronPoe types:
Are not insurgents civilians?
Same difference. Those civilians may have been combatants a few minutes later, and visa versa.
The civilians should report suspected insurgent / or trouble makers to the coalition authorities, if not and they live in an area where those people operate, then they need be preparred to become " collateral damge ".
You can't come complaining about getting "cleared " by Marines when a terrorist motherfucker is firing an ak47 from your house, sorry.
What if that evil terrorist was threathening to kill your entire family? Would you rather let your Iraqi family die then the troops that ocupy your country?
oooo the shoe is on the other side....I'm curious how this will be addressed .[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:
What if that evil terrorist was threathening to kill your entire family? Would you rather let your Iraqi family die then the troops that ocupy your country?
You seem to be operating under the unshakable assumption that somebody was firing an ak47 from the house of the civilians who were killed. That has not been determined. What about the people who were gunned down in the car? They weren't firing at the Americans.ATG wrote:
You can't come complaining about getting "cleared " by Marines when a terrorist motherfucker is firing an ak47 from your house, sorry.
This is the problem with people who are up on charges coming out on TV and spilling their guts - it prejudices opinion: this is a matter for the courts and the jury (maybe there isn't any - I don't know anything about military tribunals). All of us here on this thread are making judgments based on assumptions and not upon hard fact.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-17 18:30:34)
What would you do? You are trying to cloud facts. I gave you the facts. We can "well what if" all day. Stick to the thread or start another.[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:
What if that evil terrorist was threathening to kill your entire family? Would you rather let your Iraqi family die then the troops that ocupy your country?
Ill give you my response. I would go after the terrorist. If someone enters your home and threatens your family, would you just sit there?
The majority of our troops, and the coalation of forces are only targeting militant aggresors, and doing as much as possible to preserve civilian life. Also, it is quite difficult to interpret who is civilian and who is not, seeing how the insurgents have adapted to blending in with civilians as a concealment strategy. The people who went to work in the world trade center seemed to have forgoten their shoulder fired rocket launchers and suicide bombing paraphanalia that day, but Al Queda targeted them anyway. Do you see the difference?Bubbalo wrote:
So, what's the big deal with 9/11?SgtHeihn wrote:
yes its sad that civilians died, but that is what happens in war.
Malloy must go
Fine. Their words and actions will betray that they are in fact, insurgents and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
Well in my country you can't shoot your mouth off on TV when you are in the process of being prosecuted for crimes, on account of the fact you might prejudice public opinion and indeed the jury - it's illegal. Why not have the relatives of the Haditha victims on the same program? How does that sound?ATG wrote:
They are facing murder charges. Do you expect them to be silent?CameronPoe wrote:
I've plenty of stomach for justifiable war. They shot the shit out of a car containing 'men of military age' (actually included women and children) when there is still much dispute over whether they were indeed ever fired upon - someone needs to change 'procedure' if you ask me.
Tbh - you need quite a thick hide to be able to come on TV and justify the killing of civilians when the circumstances are still hotly disputed.