BF2S Forums Countries with the most negative image globally

CameronPoe wrote:

Velker wrote:

So you're saying that each terrorist they come into capturing red handed deserves a fair trial that could take months or years by the American judicial standards?

Did I say that. Perhaps you could point out where I said that. Because I certainly can't recall where I said that. Perhaps you have been reading between the lines. I was referring to atrocities Israel have carried out against civilians and violations of international law. I've been there - I've seen how they treat the Palestinians like an untermensch - quite despicable given that Jews themselves suffered so horrifically at the hands of Hitler.

The rest of your post is the typical run of the mill Zionist tripe. Two wrongs don't make a right. And the rest of the world knows how abhorrently the Zionists conduct their business, expanding their settlements day-by-day and heaping more and more misery onto the desperate Palestinian people by maintaining a vast open air concentration camp. Try putting yourself in Palestinian shoes for a day - it's no picnic.

But hey - the rest of the world has woken up to what Israel is really like, everyone, that is, except the US. Israel's uncompromising and unprincipled stance, embracing state terrorism, will eventually be their undoing.

PS Media schmedia - I'VE BEEN THERE AND BOUGHT THE FUCKING T-SHIRT and have read at length on the conflict. It's the US media that warps people's views.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6797 … allml3.jpg

PPS You're BF2 stats say you're American and yet you refer to Israel as 'we'. I think I see a divided loyalty sunny jim. If the US ever fell out with Israel who would you fight for? LOL.

What I was referring to was the fact that you drew attention to Israel's decision to often deal with terrorists without trial. Your quote above stated that you look down upon Israel for their "extra-judicial killings, internment without trial..." amongst other things. If you weren't making a case for long due process then just what were you inferring? I don't see where I was reading between the lines when you make your motives so clear in your argument. I'd also like to know where you get your information, other than the fact that you've been there yourself. That does not give you the mentality of either side, it just gives you a snapshot. I've been to Israel and the Gaza strip myself and know of the animosity that both sides hold for each other. I was there during the series of bus bombings in 96' and saw first hand the way that Palestinian terrorists try to bully the Israelis. You want to talk of  the way that the Israeli's deal with with Palestinian civilians? The Palestinian terrorists purposely targeted touring buses filled with civilians, mostly those that simply wanted to go to the Holy Land to make a religious pilgrimage. These were people that couldn't even defend themselves, people that had no qualms with either side but were subject to the judgment of a few mad men anyways. The first bombing in February of that year happened just a block from the hotel that I was staying in. As far as me being a so-called "Zionist" is concerned I would have to say that you couldn't have picked an easier stereo-type. By calling me that you have made a lazy attempt at dismantling my case because the term "Zionist" comes with preconceived notions and is also easy to dish out. While I detect a hint of anti-Semitism in your argument I would not go as far as you did by calling you the extreme title of that idea, which would be a Nazi. Instead of labeling those that come to your discussion table you should try to discuss the issues with them. Just because I side with the Israeli's in their fight to defend themselves does not mean that I am simply a "Zionist," blindly following their decisions.
     In regard to your last statement that questioned another person's loyalty to their country I say....grow up. I quote you as saying "PPS You're BF2 stats say you're American and yet you refer to Israel as 'we'. I think I see a divided loyalty sunny jim. If the US ever fell out with Israel who would you fight for?" If someone ever questioned your loyalty to your country I'm sure you wouldn't take it lightly. As far as my loyalties lie I am a Christian first and then an American (I'm sure you'll try to make some stereo-typical remark in regard to this to prove I'm a "Zionist"). I believe what the Bible says in regard to those that would appose Israel, the nation chosen to be the people of God and send His message to the world. In Genesis 12:3 God speaks to Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel and the Jews. He chooses Abraham to be a blessing to the world and tells him of the promise that goes with his title. "I will bless those that bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."--Genesis 12:3. While I love my country I would never oppose what I believe to be against the will of my God. Should America ever turn its back on Israel I would not want to see the retribution it would receive for that decision. I would continue to argue the case for Israel in the midst of our politicians placing their loyalties elsewhere. I do not believe that would contradict my loyalty to my country. If everyone in America agreed with everything that our government did then I would be worried that we had moved from democracy to a brain-washed existence, void of personal thought and reason. If I condemned every American that didn't agree with my personal views of the world then my loyalty to my country should be questioned in that circumstance because I would be betraying the privilege of the first amendment: free speech. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you man, I just wish people would stop condoning the case of a people that use terrorism to provoke retaliation and then point their fingers at Israel saying that the action they take is unprovoked and without foundation.

wachtler83 wrote:

this poll is biasted in my opinion

Care to explain why?

Velker wrote:

What I was referring to was the fact that you drew attention to Israel's decision to often deal with terrorists without trial. Your quote above stated that you look down upon Israel for their "extra-judicial killings, internment without trial..." amongst other things. If you weren't making a case for long due process then just what were you inferring? I don't see where I was reading between the lines when you make your motives so clear in your argument.

Suspected terrorists. They intern people for simply being related to someone who has engaged in terrorism over in Israel. A gross violation of human rights and a deplorable act of state terrorism in itself.
Remember the following, I believe you have it in the US too, innocent until proven guilty.

Velker wrote:

I'd also like to know where you get your information, other than the fact that you've been there yourself. That does not give you the mentality of either side, it just gives you a snapshot.

I spent more time on the Israeli side of the border than I did on the Palestinian. I spoke to people of both persuasions and when I was in Jordan a bunch of IDF on holiday tried to give me the 'lowdown' on how Palestinians, as they inferred, were essentially the scum of the earth.

Velker wrote:

I've been to Israel and the Gaza strip myself and know of the animosity that both sides hold for each other. I was there during the series of bus bombings in 96' and saw first hand the way that Palestinian terrorists try to bully the Israelis.

A suicide bus blast occurred the day after I left - on the airport bus - the one my travelling companion took the day previous (the day we left). I decided to give the public tranport system a wide berth...

Velker wrote:

You want to talk of  the way that the Israeli's deal with with Palestinian civilians? The Palestinian terrorists purposely targeted touring buses filled with civilians, mostly those that simply wanted to go to the Holy Land to make a religious pilgrimage. These were people that couldn't even defend themselves, people that had no qualms with either side but were subject to the judgment of a few mad men anyways. The first bombing in February of that year happened just a block from the hotel that I was staying in.

You start your paragraph referring to Palestinian civilians and then proceed with the rest of the paragraph referring to Palestinian terrorists - make up your mind which you would like to talk about, it's getting confusing.

Velker wrote:

As far as me being a so-called "Zionist" is concerned I would have to say that you couldn't have picked an easier stereo-type. By calling me that you have made a lazy attempt at dismantling my case because the term "Zionist" comes with preconceived notions and is also easy to dish out. While I detect a hint of anti-Semitism in your argument I would not go as far as you did by calling you the extreme title of that idea, which would be a Nazi. Instead of labeling those that come to your discussion table you should try to discuss the issues with them. Just because I side with the Israeli's in their fight to defend themselves does not mean that I am simply a "Zionist," blindly following their decisions.

Well your refernces to the bible a little further down in your post proves that you are a true Zionist by the very definition of the term so I guess I was right straight from the outset. Anti-semites hate Jews by the way - something I don't so I think you can refrain from the anti-semitism charge. A lot of Jews are against Israeli governmental policy too you know. My beef is with the Israeli government, right wing and Zionists.

Velker wrote:

In regard to your last statement that questioned another person's loyalty to their country I say....grow up. I quote you as saying "PPS You're BF2 stats say you're American and yet you refer to Israel as 'we'. I think I see a divided loyalty sunny jim. If the US ever fell out with Israel who would you fight for?" If someone ever questioned your loyalty to your country I'm sure you wouldn't take it lightly. As far as my loyalties lie I am a Christian first and then an American (I'm sure you'll try to make some stereo-typical remark in regard to this to prove I'm a "Zionist"). I believe what the Bible says in regard to those that would appose Israel, the nation chosen to be the people of God and send His message to the world. In Genesis 12:3 God speaks to Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel and the Jews. He chooses Abraham to be a blessing to the world and tells him of the promise that goes with his title. "I will bless those that bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."--Genesis 12:3. While I love my country I would never oppose what I believe to be against the will of my God. Should America ever turn its back on Israel I would not want to see the retribution it would receive for that decision. I would continue to argue the case for Israel in the midst of our politicians placing their loyalties elsewhere. I do not believe that would contradict my loyalty to my country.

Here we see you for who you really are - essentially you are a religious extremist. You would sacrifice the well-being of your fellow countrymen in the name of an intangible 'higher being', based on the writings of a few bored herdsmen back when humans still believed the earth was flat.

Velker wrote:

If everyone in America agreed with everything that our government did then I would be worried that we had moved from democracy to a brain-washed existence, void of personal thought and reason. If I condemned every American that didn't agree with my personal views of the world then my loyalty to my country should be questioned in that circumstance because I would be betraying the privilege of the first amendment: free speech.

You're right there - but what's worse is to blindly follow religion: the same thing Islamic extremists do.

Velker wrote:

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you man, I just wish people would stop condoning the case of a people that use terrorism to provoke retaliation and then point their fingers at Israel saying that the action they take is unprovoked and without foundation.

I never condoned terrorism in any of my posts. Try searching them, I don't think you'll find any such reference. I do believe however that the Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation through the honourable use of arms. The Zionists committed the fundamental crime in my opinion by driving hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and farms to set up their state, a state I might add that should have been set up at the expense of the Germans not the Palestinians.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-08 02:10:35)

Velker wrote:

I believe what the Bible says in regard to those that would appose Israel, the nation chosen to be the people of God and send His message to the world. In Genesis 12:3 God speaks to Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel and the Jews. He chooses Abraham to be a blessing to the world and tells him of the promise that goes with his title. "I will bless those that bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."--Genesis 12:3. While I love my country I would never oppose what I believe to be against the will of my God. Should America ever turn its back on Israel I would not want to see the retribution it would receive for that decision.

You do know Abraham (Ibrāhīm) is also the father of Islam? Although there is a bit of role reversal going on with Isaac and Ismail - the religions trace their roots to exactly the same place.

Which is irrelevant really, 'cos it's all a load of cobblers. Political decisions should never be based on religious delusion, because of exactly the sort of prejudice and bias you have just shown a wonderful example of.

Velker wrote:

I believe what the Bible says in regard to those that would appose Israel, the nation chosen to be the people of God and send His message to the world. In Genesis 12:3 God speaks to Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel and the Jews. He chooses Abraham to be a blessing to the world and tells him of the promise that goes with his title. "I will bless those that bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."--Genesis 12:3. While I love my country I would never oppose what I believe to be against the will of my God. Should America ever turn its back on Israel I would not want to see the retribution it would receive for that decision.

You know that's why I don't like the Jewish faith (and Islam is the same actually*). It's exclusionist and hypocritical. Parts of the Bible say we're all equal in God's eyes ...but the Jews are the chosen people. So are the Jews more equal in Gods eyes then? And you are interpreting this piece of the Bible to be the right to have carte blanche to do whatever you want to anyone who stands in the way of Israel, that IMO is profoundly wrong. Are you saying America will receive retribution in the next life? I personally think the whole religion thing is complete bull shit and the fact that you try and use it as a means of justifying the criminal acts of a pirate state is insulting. Do Islamic extremists not do the same thing when they carry out suicide missions? ...if everyone behaved like that there would be no problem in the Middle East as everyone would be dead.

*I say Islam is the same because of their idea of outsiders being 'Infidels'.

Last edited by Braddock (2007-03-08 06:02:25)

JahManRed wrote:

Vilham wrote:

I love the fact that even after all the effort in Iraq its not even classified as free or even partly free.

Substitute the word 'love' for 'hate' in that last sentence, you sound like your happy Iraqi is in the state it is in to prove your point in this debate. I know it's not how your feel, but it sounds that way.

Im love it because it shows that what America is doing doesnt work and just shows them as imperialistic pigs, shame Blair is such a bum boy and brought us down with them.

Ofc i dont "love" what is happening to the Iraqi people, it would be great if they could be free, war rarely brings freedom though.

Last edited by Vilham (2007-03-08 07:51:07)

Vilham wrote:

Pug wrote:

Ok, I was going for Ireland - an example of a people who were oppressed by England.  And asking you whether you felt that the Irish people would want NOT to be oppressed...but if you want to use Iraq, fine.

You are focusing on the wrong part of his point, which was people have a basic need to be free from being oppressed.  I find it ironic that you are using the "US is oppressing other nations", using Iraq as an example, but don't recognize what Saddam represented.

O i do count Saddam as a fascist repressing twat. However all America has done is replace one evil with another, it still isnt free.

So basically you are saying that because of Iraq, no one ever freed from oppression should be greatful for what they have gained.

My point is if you are going to credit the US with the bad, you have to give credit for the good too.  Just because someone doesn't share your opinion, doesn't mean they don't know anything.

You are making a pretty good example of allowing your anti-American bent to cloud basic rationale.

Vilham wrote:

Please give me one example where America has "freed" a country by invading it and it has lasted beyond a few years.

France.

Korea.

Kuwait - although that was the UN.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-03-08 08:52:37)

Vilham wrote:

Please give me one example where America has "freed" a country by invading it and it has lasted beyond a few years.

Im not "anti-America" im anti america going round trying to colonise the world with their values against the will of other people and their cultures.

Bitch please, use your head.

You aren't anti-American?
You can't admit anything positive and you insult everyone around you that says anything positive about the US.

And you hate the America people as well:
"As to the original point... Its called Culture, i realy wouldnt expect you to understand because America realy does seem to have little to none, or does money grabbing buisness men count as culture these days?"

Hey ShawN_ where are that kitty's ears?

sfarrar33 wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

France.

Korea.

Kuwait - although that was the UN.

Let's ad more to the list.

Britain (Saved it's ass in WW2 with supplies and shit)
USSR (Supplies)
Holland
Belgium
Israel (not really, but helped keep it alive from an Arab invasion)

GG.

apart from the USSR America has never invaded those countries
and in WWII many American firms were quite happy to trade with Germany (read the book IBM and the Holocaust) and even bolstered and controlled  its economy(literally since every German bank was owned by America, though the nazis did overtime buy them back) before the Nazi regime was in power

What do you mean apart from the USSR? That's one of the few countries listed the US hasn't invaded, along with Britain and Israel.

sfarrar33 wrote:

It is the subject of some debate as to whether or not America would have even entered WWII if Pearl Harbour had not happened, but if instead America would have waited until Germany became a threat to it.

That is absolutely not the case.

CameronPoe wrote:

I find it a little ironic a British person, with all of their less than salubrious history, charging the US with 'going round trying to colonise the world with their values against the will of other people and their cultures.', especially when Vilham espouses the complete opposite argument when it comes to Northern Ireland.

If you wanna play that card in an argument Vilham then give us back the six counties you stole off of us and the language you almost managed to destroy.

I think we have had this one before... its called choice. They have chosen to stay part of the UK, as i have said more than once im more than willing to give that drain on the UK to the Irish however I wouldnt do it against the choice of the people that live there.