And the Netherlands (South Africa) and more recently the US (on the exploitation front).usmarine2007 wrote:
France and England?Bertster7 wrote:
What you can blame is Western imperialism and exploitation.
he is right, it is white men that own the blood diamond minesstef10 wrote:
Jonsimon, shut up you one sided racist guy. You hate white people and you hate Christianity.
It has gone through our brainskull.
i just wouldn't call them good christians, even though they claim to be so...
edit: or good people for that matter...
Last edited by sfarrar33 (2007-03-03 07:46:16)
Not to mention the fact that usmarine expects Africa to act like the west. They are possible hundreds of years behind us in terms of civilisation. It's like comparing cavemen to neolithic man for want of a better comparison. You can't expect civilised society to reign supreme all across the globe - all parts of the globe are at a different phase of development/civilisation. Imposing western norms on failed African states is asking a bit much, they have a lot of growing up to do.Bertster7 wrote:
My point - as I have repeated numerous times - is not anything to do with Christianity being responsible for the problems in Africa. It is that religion is not responsible for the problems in Africa.usmarine2007 wrote:
Please God, I beg you two. Take away countries that are majority christian in Africa. I am just talking about the islamic ones. If you want to make a thread about how christianity is destroying Africa, fine. But this is about muslims and islamic law. I am not comparing religions, I hate religion.Bertster7 wrote:
Or burning women because they're witches.
Or just the general murdering and raping....
I've been providing contasting examples of at least equally bad problems in Christian countries and trying to show that the problem does not stem from religion - as you earlier argued that the problems in Africa were caused by Islam. Since the problems in Africa are far from being unique to Islamic countries you cannot use blame Islam for them any more than you can blame Christianity for them in the Christian states. What you can blame is Western imperialism and exploitation.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-03 07:47:17)
Belgium, Netherlands, USA, Spain and Portugal too.usmarine2007 wrote:
France and England?Bertster7 wrote:
What you can blame is Western imperialism and exploitation.
What's all this talk about diamonds? Just cause that's the new fad - it's all just exploitation. Whether it be oil, diamonds, whatever.
As opposed to 3bn annually donated to Israel by the US to bomb the hell out off the Palestinians?ATG wrote:
Saddam gave money to the families of suicide bombers that attacked Israel.Surkill wrote:
I am a Muslim, and I really seriously think that the way America is handling the Middle East would simply increase Muslim readicalism.
I think that America took total advantage of Iraq. Saddam already lost the Gulf War, and his country was made to pay with all the sanctions. How the country was destroyed simply reflects America's greed.
I am not anti American, but I condemn America's policies in the Middle East.
And, America has always been one sided to Israel. I think Jimmy Carter's book says it all that Israel does practice Aparthied against Palestinians. Ignorant bigot, antisemite, jihadist, call me whatever you want, but in truth I do see the actions of America's policies.
Other countries should note that this is not acceptable and may result in war with the United States.
Mission accomplished.
Other countries note the hypocrisy.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Is anyone having the feeling that they want so see the film" Blood Diamonds"
Duly noted. $84bn since the foundation of the state as a matter of fact.m3thod wrote:
As opposed to 3bn annually donated to Israel by the US to bomb the hell out off the Palestinians?ATG wrote:
Saddam gave money to the families of suicide bombers that attacked Israel.Surkill wrote:
I am a Muslim, and I really seriously think that the way America is handling the Middle East would simply increase Muslim readicalism.
I think that America took total advantage of Iraq. Saddam already lost the Gulf War, and his country was made to pay with all the sanctions. How the country was destroyed simply reflects America's greed.
I am not anti American, but I condemn America's policies in the Middle East.
And, America has always been one sided to Israel. I think Jimmy Carter's book says it all that Israel does practice Aparthied against Palestinians. Ignorant bigot, antisemite, jihadist, call me whatever you want, but in truth I do see the actions of America's policies.
Other countries should note that this is not acceptable and may result in war with the United States.
Mission accomplished.
Other countries note the hypocrisy.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-03 07:50:59)
The point is Africa is fucked up because of European involvement centuries ago. Religion has nothing to do with it, the european christian white man came, conquered, and left the place a heaping mess. A century or two later, we have modern africa, still rife with exploitation and dirty-dealings.Bertster7 wrote:
What's all this talk about diamonds? Just cause that's the new fad - it's all just exploitation. Whether it be oil, diamonds, whatever.
Yep and so did/does American Companies. American contractors are still making a 'killing' from the oil.usmarine2007 wrote:
Do you not understand Saddam made MILLIONS of the oil for food sanctions? FACT
Vietnam. Mass Rape.......check.........mass killings.........check..........wiping out villages.....check....ear collecting....check!!!!usmarine2007 wrote:
Saddam was responsible for mass killings, rape rooms, etc . FACT
lol, a link please. So he was bigger mates with the Bin laden family than Bush Sr??usmarine2007 wrote:
Jimmy Carter is responsible for the rise of the Taliban. FACT
Africa is predominately Christian. If Africa was allowed to trade on the same level as the rest of the world they might have a chance to lift themselves out of poverty.............can't have another China tho.usmarine2007 wrote:
Islamic world destroys itself. For example, Africa. FACT
No, I think it was already pretty fucked up with that Voodoo-shit.jonsimon wrote:
The point is Africa is fucked up because of European involvement centuries ago. Religion has nothing to do with it, the european christian white man came, conquered, and left the place a heaping mess. A century or two later, we have modern africa, still rife with exploitation and dirty-dealings.Bertster7 wrote:
What's all this talk about diamonds? Just cause that's the new fad - it's all just exploitation. Whether it be oil, diamonds, whatever.
well when I saw the word diamonds and exploitation coming by here, I sure thought about that movie.stef10 wrote:
Is anyone having the feeling that they want so see the film" Blood Diamonds"
Voodoo is a religion just like christianity or islam. It's rather tame.stef10 wrote:
No, I think it was already pretty fucked up with that Voodoo-shit.jonsimon wrote:
The point is Africa is fucked up because of European involvement centuries ago. Religion has nothing to do with it, the european christian white man came, conquered, and left the place a heaping mess. A century or two later, we have modern africa, still rife with exploitation and dirty-dealings.Bertster7 wrote:
What's all this talk about diamonds? Just cause that's the new fad - it's all just exploitation. Whether it be oil, diamonds, whatever.
But still all that shit about poking a needle into dolls. It fucking creeps me out.
That's all popular culture, none of that is a part of actual voodoo.stef10 wrote:
But still all that shit about poking a needle into dolls. It fucking creeps me out.
Oh, but still those needles and those dolls.
lol...JahManRed wrote:
lol, a link please. So he was bigger mates with the Bin laden family than Bush Sr??usmarine2007 wrote:
Jimmy Carter is responsible for the rise of the Taliban. FACT
"In order to oppose the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski started a $40 billion programme of training Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union, but, ironically, also to the creation of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and to the creation of violent Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which one is now called Al-Qaida."\
http://wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=Jimmy_Carter
Ta for the info, my bad, I thought it was Regan who started the programme.
No, but he sure didn't stop it.JahManRed wrote:
Ta for the info, my bad, I thought it was Regan who started the programme.
You might want to use the REAL wikipedia link.usmarine2007 wrote:
lol...JahManRed wrote:
lol, a link please. So he was bigger mates with the Bin laden family than Bush Sr??usmarine2007 wrote:
Jimmy Carter is responsible for the rise of the Taliban. FACT
"In order to oppose the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski started a $40 billion programme of training Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union, but, ironically, also to the creation of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and to the creation of violent Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which one is now called Al-Qaida."\
http://wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=Jimmy_Carter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_cart … fghanistan
Where it quite clearly states: THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT CITE ITS REFERENCES OR SOURCES. So it's probably not worth the paper it's written on.
No such thing as a REAL wiki link. Nobody knows the whole truth, especially not you or I. But someone had to give the CIA orders to go there right?CameronPoe wrote:
You might want to use the REAL wikipedia link.usmarine2007 wrote:
lol...JahManRed wrote:
lol, a link please. So he was bigger mates with the Bin laden family than Bush Sr??
"In order to oppose the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski started a $40 billion programme of training Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union, but, ironically, also to the creation of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and to the creation of violent Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which one is now called Al-Qaida."\
http://wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=Jimmy_Carter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_cart … fghanistan
Where it quite clearly states: THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT CITE ITS REFERENCES OR SOURCES. So it's probably not worth the paper it's written on.
Last edited by usmarine2007 (2007-03-03 08:14:29)
The contest between the Mid-east and the West is thirteen hundred years old. Although it occasionally paused it never stopped. Despite the errors we have made in the Middle East the problems are not really about America. The Mid-East has grown so inhumane and weak that it craves a great Satan to explain it's ineptitude. The United States will have to do. Muslims are in a crisis of responsibility. Hundreds of millions of Muslims have fled into a fantasy world. We would be better off by far if we were able to turn away and ignore the Islamic heartlands. But we cannot avoid engagement, since our enemies are determined to bring the of terror to our shores. Even if they can not destroy America they are determined to wound and humiliate us to validate themselves.Surkill wrote:
I am a Muslim, and I really seriously think that the way America is handling the Middle East would simply increase Muslim readicalism.
I think that America took total advantage of Iraq. Saddam already lost the Gulf War, and his country was made to pay with all the sanctions. How the country was destroyed simply reflects America's greed.
I am not anti American, but I condemn America's policies in the Middle East.
And, America has always been one sided to Israel. I think Jimmy Carter's book says it all that Israel does practice Aparthied against Palestinians. Ignorant bigot, antisemite, jihadist, call me whatever you want, but in truth I do see the actions of America's policies.
We all make our own devils in our lives. And the Muslims of the Mid-East require a great Satan to explain why more than a thousand years of effort, often successful, came to nothing in the end. Until the inhabitants of the Mid-east can begin to take responsibility for their own success or failure, welcome change, the rule of law, hard work, individual merit, and above all womens rights, the Mid-East will remain the world's sick civilization.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Interesting take. I agree with it partially vis. the requirement for the region to have an enemy against which they can focus their rage and explain their own shortcomings. That same principle applies to the US today (enemy=Islam, used to be USSR), Cuba (enemy=USA), North Korea (enemy=US/South Korea/Japan). Nationalistic fervour is stoked up through anti-enemy propaganda. But you are being too simplisitic. The west has been exploitative and supportive of governments in the region that they suffer at the hands of - so their labelling of the west as 'the enemy' is hardly without cause. Also, one can avoid engagement in a conventional military sense - if sanctions are effectively applied and domestic security is made as water-tight as possible.Kmarion wrote:
The contest between the Mid-east and the West is thirteen hundred years old. Although it occasionally paused it never stopped. Despite the errors we have made in the Middle East the problems are not really about America. The Mid-East has grown so inhumane and weak that it craves a great Satan to explain it's ineptitude. The United States will have to do. Muslims are in a crisis of responsibility. Hundreds of millions of Muslims have fled into a fantasy world. We would be better off by far if we were able to turn away and ignore the Islamic heartlands. But we cannot avoid engagement, since our enemies are determined to bring the of terror to our shores. Even if they can not destroy America they are determined to wound and humiliate us to validate themselves.
We all make our own devils in our lives. And the Muslims of the Mid-East require a great Satan to explain why more than a thousand years of effort, often successful, came to nothing in the end. Until the inhabitants of the Mid-east can begin to take responsibility for their own success or failure, welcome change, the rule of law, hard work, individual merit, and above all womens rights, the Mid-East will remain the world's sick civilization.
Exploitation and blame are nothing new in the conflict between the West and Muslims.
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-03 09:02:25)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I agree with both of you.CameronPoe wrote:
Interesting take. I agree with it partially vis. the requirement for the region to have an enemy against which they can focus their rage and explain their own shortcomings. That same principle applies to the US today (enemy=Islam, used to be USSR), Cuba (enemy=USA), North Korea (enemy=US/South Korea/Japan). Nationalistic fervour is stoked up through anti-enemy propaganda. But you are being too simplisitic. The west has been exploitative and supportive of governments in the region that they suffer at the hands of - so their labelling of the west as 'the enemy' is hardly without cause. Also, one can avoid engagement in a conventional military sense - if sanctions are effectively applied and domestic security is made as water-tight as possible.Kmarion wrote:
The contest between the Mid-east and the West is thirteen hundred years old. Although it occasionally paused it never stopped. Despite the errors we have made in the Middle East the problems are not really about America. The Mid-East has grown so inhumane and weak that it craves a great Satan to explain it's ineptitude. The United States will have to do. Muslims are in a crisis of responsibility. Hundreds of millions of Muslims have fled into a fantasy world. We would be better off by far if we were able to turn away and ignore the Islamic heartlands. But we cannot avoid engagement, since our enemies are determined to bring the of terror to our shores. Even if they can not destroy America they are determined to wound and humiliate us to validate themselves.
We all make our own devils in our lives. And the Muslims of the Mid-East require a great Satan to explain why more than a thousand years of effort, often successful, came to nothing in the end. Until the inhabitants of the Mid-east can begin to take responsibility for their own success or failure, welcome change, the rule of law, hard work, individual merit, and above all womens rights, the Mid-East will remain the world's sick civilization.
Good points.