Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6692|Tampa Bay Florida
Article from yesterday

"Feb. 27, 2007 - Jack Bauer, the fictional federal agent in the hit American TV show "24," gets what he wants—and does whatever it takes to get it. Whether he must beat, suffocate, electrocute, drug or engage in psychological abuse, he will unravel whatever terror plot imperils the United States. He's even used torture on his own brother. Less well known, however, is how TV series like these have captured the imagination of American soldiers in Iraq.

According to the New York-based group Human Rights First, the vivid depiction of these tactics in primetime shows like "24" are influencing U.S. troops abroad—and presenting a major challenge for military training academies. "It's become clear that this show has unintended consequences in that it informs young soldiers about these techniques, and it gives the false impression that they work," says David Danzig, a torture expert at the nonprofit organization, which has just launched a campaign called Primetime Torture to change the way abusive interrogation tactics are shown on TV. "That's a real problem because there are young soldiers out in the field who are imitating this stuff."

The Pentagon told NEWSWEEK last week that it didn't know anything about the tactics used on "24," nor had it heard the allegations of their impact. "Humane treatment of detainees is and always has been the [U.S. Department of Defense] standard," said Lt. Col. Mark Ballesteros. But former U.S. Army specialist Tony Lagouranis, who left the military with an honorable discharge in 2005 and has since spoken out about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners there, says the use of tactics like those featured on TV was common during his 2004-2005 Iraqi tour. According to Lagouranis, his unit tried out similar tactics after watching torture scenes on television and DVD.  He has since teamed up with Human Rights First, and recently met with the producers of "24" as part of an effort to have them be more "responsible" in their portrayal of torture scenes. Kiefer Sutherland, who plays Jack Bauer, has since said publicly that he'd be willing to talk to West Point cadets about the wrongful use of torture. Lagouranis spoke with NEWSWEEK's Jessica Bennett.

NEWSWEEK: How common were shows like “24” while you were in Iraq?
Tony Lagouranis: There were TVs everywhere in Iraq, so people were watching movies and television all the time. I don't know if it was specifically “24,” because I hadn't watched it back then, but I do remember remarking all the time that it was just so common to see interrogation scenes. And they all seemed to have a common theme, that the interrogator would establish power over the detainee and then establish a threat that would make the detainee break—maybe the threat of torture, maybe actual torture."

Much more at this link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17369550/site/newsweek/

Last edited by Spearhead (2007-02-28 18:27:35)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina
Hmmm..   I don't see the American Family Association having a cow over this.  I guess they're too busy complaining about people showing nipples or saying the word "fuck" on TV.

Interesting info indeed....
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
Pfffffff, yeah, soldiers are training for the battlefield by watching 24.  What a load of crap.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio
Friggin hollyweird fools. 

When I was in, I shot women and children out of a helicopter, you just don't lead them as much.

Pfffttt.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6692|Tampa Bay Florida

Stingray24 wrote:

Pfffffff, yeah, soldiers are training for the battlefield by watching 24.  What a load of crap.
Tell that to the Brigadier General

They said nothing like that, that is you completely misreading the story.  They specifically say that when soldiers aren't trained in torture techniques, and are told to be creative, they usually turn to popular media for info.  If anything, they were criticizing the show, not the soldiers. 

And yeah, the show is a load of crap.

Last edited by Spearhead (2007-02-28 19:10:22)

Fenix14
scout rush kekeke ^___^
+116|6559|Brisbane, Aus

Spearhead wrote:

They said nothing like that, that is you completely misreading the story.  They specifically say that when soldiers aren't trained in torture techniques, and are told to be creative, they usually turn to popular media for info.  If anything, they were criticizing the show, not the soldiers. 

And yeah, the show is a load of crap.
I hope you don't mean that about 24, cause Jack pwns your TV.

It's another case of 'it's entertaining and we love it, but the moment someone copies it in real life it's ruined for the rest of us.'

Torture scenes have been in TV/movies for decades, along with smoking/nudity/sex scenes/foul language all of which have been argued about over their 'infulence' over people.

I'm still waiting for someone to replicate snakes on a plane, and when that happens, I perhaps will change my mind on it.
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|6757|United States of America
I wish the students there jump him and proceed to torture him telling him to never speak against torture again... Will it work?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker

Spearhead wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Pfffffff, yeah, soldiers are training for the battlefield by watching 24.  What a load of crap.
Tell that to the Brigadier General

They said nothing like that, that is you completely misreading the story.  They specifically say that when soldiers aren't trained in torture techniques, and are told to be creative, they usually turn to popular media for info.  If anything, they were criticizing the show, not the soldiers. 

And yeah, the show is a load of crap.
I will tell him, but he probably won't listen . . . and 24 is awesome.  Shoots the theory that torture doesn't work too . . . Are we seriously giving a tv show such prominence that we're telling our soldiers not to copy Jack Bauer?  Please.
*rubs hands together*
Muahahahaahahaha!  I wonder what Jack will do this week that I can try on the enemy.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-02-28 19:39:24)

HunterOfSkulls
Rated EC-10
+246|6281
Yes, fictional TV drama definitley proves that torture works.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6583|SE London

HunterOfSkulls wrote:

Yes, fictional TV drama definitley proves that torture works.
Indeed.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

usmarine2007 wrote:

Friggin hollyweird fools. 

When I was in, I shot women and children out of a helicopter, you just don't lead them as much.

Pfffttt.
Plagarism will not be tolerated.

Credit your sources.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
LawJik
The Skeptical Realist
+48|6533|Amherst, MA
Did any of you consider researching this at all? This story was on Democracy Now a week earlier, but the story begins last fall. A General from West Point has been trying to get in touch with producers, writers, etc. from "24" since last fall. So it is the military trying to get in touch with 24, not the other way around.

(Video link to this Democracy Now article)

In the past seasons of 24, there were 67 tourture scences, more than one every episode.

"This past fall, the Dean of West Point, Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, along with experienced military and FBI interrogators and representatives of Human Rights First, met with the creative team behind the hit Fox Television show “24” and tell them to stop using torture because American soldiers were copying the show’s tactics. "


Tony Lagouranis is one of the former Army interrogators who met with the show’s writers in November. He served for a year in Iraq, joins us in the studio from Chicago.

"TONY LAGOURANIS: Well, the problem was that when we were interrogating in Iraq in 2004, we were being told that Geneva Conventions didn't comply. So we didn't have training that informed us what to do anymore, because we were taught according to Geneva Conventions. So people were getting ideas from television. And among the things that I saw people doing that they got from television was water-boarding, mock execution, using mock torture. They wanted to hook up one of our translators to an electric generator and pretend that they were torturing him and allow prisoners to see that so that they thought that they would experience the same thing. These were techniques -- I’m sorry, go ahead. "


David Danzig, director of the Prime Time Torture Project for Human Rights First. He was also in the group that met with the producers of 24. We asked Joel Surnow, the creator of 24, or any representative from the show to be on the program, but they declined our request.

"DAVID DANZIG: That's right. It’s really quite shocking when you look at the way that television deals with torture now, as opposed to before 9/11. Before 9/11 there was an average of about four scenes of torture on television in primetime. Per year. Sorry. Post-9/11, that number has jumped to more than 100. But what’s particularly disturbing for us about this is that when you look at who’s doing the torturing, the people who are involved in it have changed. It used to be the bad guys were the ones who tortured, the Nazis or aliens or something like that, and torture never worked. But now it’s people like Jack Bauer. It’s the heroes of these shows -- Sidney on Alias -- and it always works for these people. So the message that 18-, 19-, 20-year-old soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan get is that good guys use this stuff and it works. "

Last edited by LawJik (2007-03-01 07:42:42)

usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

m3thod wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Friggin hollyweird fools. 

When I was in, I shot women and children out of a helicopter, you just don't lead them as much.

Pfffttt.
Plagarism will not be tolerated.

Credit your sources.
You should be shot on sight if you do not know this line.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6692|Tampa Bay Florida
Thank you lawjik
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6692|Tampa Bay Florida

Turquoise wrote:

Hmmm..   I don't see the American Family Association having a cow over this.  I guess they're too busy complaining about people showing nipples or saying the word "fuck" on TV.

Interesting info indeed....
lol.  You added some other lines in there.  I agree.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6648

HunterOfSkulls wrote:

Yes, fictional TV drama definitley proves that torture works.
No, years of history and actualy torturing people proves it works. It's just not seen as ethical.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

HunterOfSkulls wrote:

Yes, fictional TV drama definitley proves that torture works.
No, years of history and actualy torturing people proves it works. It's just not seen as ethical.
That's the point I was trying to get across. +1
LawJik
The Skeptical Realist
+48|6533|Amherst, MA

Stingray24 wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

No, years of history and actualy torturing people proves it works. It's just not seen as ethical.
That's the point I was trying to get across. +1
"DAVID DANZIG: Yeah, it’s a little disturbing. The show is, in some ways, an advertisement for torture. Torture works on 24, works on a lot of other shows, too.

AMY GOODMAN: Tony Lagouranis, does torture work?

TONY LAGOURANIS: In my experience, no. I saw torture in Iraq. I even employed some torture methods. In my experience, it doesn't work. I think that you’re going to get false intelligence when you employ torture methods."

Guess Ajax and Stingray are both, experienced with military torture, thanks..

Last edited by LawJik (2007-03-02 12:25:39)

usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

LawJik wrote:

Guess Ajax and Stingray are both, expierenced with military torture, thanks..
Guess you are also.  GG
LawJik
The Skeptical Realist
+48|6533|Amherst, MA

usmarine2007 wrote:

LawJik wrote:

Guess Ajax and Stingray are both, expierenced with military torture, thanks..
Guess you are also.  GG
I supported my statements. GG
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

LawJik wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

LawJik wrote:

Guess Ajax and Stingray are both, expierenced with military torture, thanks..
Guess you are also.  GG
I supported my statements. GG
By one persons opinion?  If it truly didn't work, why does damn near every country do some form of it?
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6648

LawJik wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

LawJik wrote:

Guess Ajax and Stingray are both, expierenced with military torture, thanks..
Guess you are also.  GG
I supported my statements. GG
Your statements are wrong. Torture works. Do you people just argue for the sakes of arguing?
Dirrty_Bird
Dirtier than thou
+5|6742|Vermont

usmarine2007 wrote:

By one persons opinion?  If it truly didn't work, why does damn near every country do some form of it?
That's a pretty lofty accusation and I'd love to see you back it up. Also its important to note that when speaking of countries "doing" torture we should limit the discussion to sanctioned torture, not individual acts. Just because a few soldiers from a country decide to torture someone does not mean that it should be said that that country engages in torture tactics.

This doesn't apply in the case of the United States however, since the current administration in all its wisdom has effectively condoned torture.
Dirrty_Bird
Dirtier than thou
+5|6742|Vermont

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Your statements are wrong. Torture works. Do you people just argue for the sakes of arguing?
For all you "torture works" people. I agree to a point. Torture is quite effective in making most people talk. It is not necessarily effective at making people say anything of substance or tactical value.

Furthermore, even if torture was effective, that fact alone is a piss poor argument for engaging in it.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6648

BiRdMaN829 wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Your statements are wrong. Torture works. Do you people just argue for the sakes of arguing?
For all you "torture works" people. I agree to a point. Torture is quite effective in making most people talk. It is not necessarily effective at making people say anything of substance or tactical value.

Furthermore, even if torture was effective, that fact alone is a piss poor argument for engaging in it.
I'm not supporting it. I don't think the U.S. should practice torture.

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