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Poll

Do you agree with union-led strike action in public services?

Yes54%54% - 24
No38%38% - 17
Don't know6%6% - 3
Total: 44
2007-02-02 14:10:32
Ratzinger
Member
+43|6683|Wollongong, NSW, Australia
We start out discussing whether public sector employees should have the right to strike, and whether there are conditions under which it would be necessary, and it turns into a "bash the corrupt unions" thread.

Pug and I were discussing the reasons it may become necessary to strike (and most public servants DO feel a responsibility to the community), and I mentioned the corruption of local govts. How about the steady erosion of services but cutting staff and costs until the whole dept becomes untenable, then bring in a private contractor because "private is more efficient". Then after a year or so the govt funding goes up dramatically year by year, until the press reveal that the CEO of the company has the politicians in his pocket.

Unions cannot possibly hope to match the corruption in the private sector.
2007-02-02 14:28:12
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

TeamZephyr wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

If you are going to walk off the job, you had better make sure you are to important and valuable to replace. Talk to the ATC's in the 80's. They know.
I totally agree.  Fuck unions...  They've outlived their usefulness.
Bull, worker's unions are essential to maintain the principle of a "responsible and accountable" government in a democracy. It's part of the checks and balances system that the people make sure that the government is treating them well and representing them.

If we didn't have unions we would have a lot people getting sub-standard wage and bad conditions because they don't have the power to stand up to the government for their entitlements.

United we stand, divided we fall
As taken straight out of the union handbook
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself of that bullshit. more than us. I worked in unions, they are full of people that, well, NEED a union to save their sorry ass, no work ethic, careers.
2007-02-02 14:38:13
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6736|The Land of Scott Walker
I'm sure there are hard-working union laborers . . . but the ones I see are standing around making 3 times my wage while they do half the work.  I have no sympathy if they're whining about below-inflation raises.  I have to earn my raise - it's not scheduled.  They should be no different even though they're union.  My opinion: everyone needs to earn their raise or shut the hell up.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-02-02 14:39:04)

2007-02-02 15:44:27
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

Stingray24 wrote:

I'm sure there are hard-working union laborers . . . but the ones I see are standing around making 3 times my wage while they do half the work.  I have no sympathy if they're whining about below-inflation raises.  I have to earn my raise - it's not scheduled.  They should be no different even though they're union.  My opinion: everyone needs to earn their raise or shut the hell up.
the part about hard working union memebers.............I wouldn't take that bet.
2007-02-02 16:05:40
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

TeamZephyr wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

If you are going to walk off the job, you had better make sure you are to important and valuable to replace. Talk to the ATC's in the 80's. They know.
I totally agree.  Fuck unions...  They've outlived their usefulness.
Bull, worker's unions are essential to maintain the principle of a "responsible and accountable" government in a democracy. It's part of the checks and balances system that the people make sure that the government is treating them well and representing them.

If we didn't have unions we would have a lot people getting sub-standard wage and bad conditions because they don't have the power to stand up to the government for their entitlements.

United we stand, divided we fall
Heh...  well, the last sentence is a powerful one, but I guess I see it differently.

Anyone should have the right to strike, but any employer should have the right to fire and hire as they please.  At least, that's how I see it.  Granted, I believe minimum wage laws are necessary, as are several other labor laws.  It's just that I think most of the progress that unions made was decades ago.  Nowadays, most unions seem more like the mob.
2007-02-02 16:07:31
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6962|UK

lowing wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


I totally agree.  Fuck unions...  They've outlived their usefulness.
Bull, worker's unions are essential to maintain the principle of a "responsible and accountable" government in a democracy. It's part of the checks and balances system that the people make sure that the government is treating them well and representing them.

If we didn't have unions we would have a lot people getting sub-standard wage and bad conditions because they don't have the power to stand up to the government for their entitlements.

United we stand, divided we fall
As taken straight out of the union handbook
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself of that bullshit. more than us. I worked in unions, they are full of people that, well, NEED a union to save their sorry ass, no work ethic, careers.
I can't believe i am to agree with this nutter

Sure unions are good to prevent the bosses from taking the piss but in my experience as someone who spent time battling them in disciplinary hearings within UK public transportation they would invariably be trying to save deadbeats. 

Examples? 

Shagging
Smoking
Fighting with passengers/colleagues
Turning off CCTV
Swiping lost mobile phones

I even had to deal with one guy who nearly crushed a colleague.  I don't get me started on going on long term sick when someone farts in their general direction.

You name it, I've seen it/dealt with it.  Trade unions would be the fundamental reason why i left the industry and returned to my IT roots.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-02-02 16:28:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:


Bull, worker's unions are essential to maintain the principle of a "responsible and accountable" government in a democracy. It's part of the checks and balances system that the people make sure that the government is treating them well and representing them.

If we didn't have unions we would have a lot people getting sub-standard wage and bad conditions because they don't have the power to stand up to the government for their entitlements.

United we stand, divided we fall
As taken straight out of the union handbook
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself of that bullshit. more than us. I worked in unions, they are full of people that, well, NEED a union to save their sorry ass, no work ethic, careers.
I can't believe i am to agree with this nutter

Sure unions are good to prevent the bosses from taking the piss but in my experience as someone who spent time battling them in disciplinary hearings within UK public transportation they would invariably be trying to save deadbeats. 

Examples? 

Shagging
Smoking
Fighting with passengers/colleagues
Turning off CCTV
Swiping lost mobile phones

I even had to deal with one guy who nearly crushed a colleague.  I don't get me started on going on long term sick when someone farts in their general direction.

You name it, I've seen it/dealt with it.  Trade unions would be the fundamental reason why i left the industry and returned to my IT roots.
I can go ahead and die now. I 100% re-affirm and agree with m3thod.
2007-02-02 16:38:37
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6962|UK

lowing wrote:

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:


As taken straight out of the union handbook
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself of that bullshit. more than us. I worked in unions, they are full of people that, well, NEED a union to save their sorry ass, no work ethic, careers.
I can't believe i am to agree with this nutter

Sure unions are good to prevent the bosses from taking the piss but in my experience as someone who spent time battling them in disciplinary hearings within UK public transportation they would invariably be trying to save deadbeats. 

Examples? 

Shagging
Smoking
Fighting with passengers/colleagues
Turning off CCTV
Swiping lost mobile phones

I even had to deal with one guy who nearly crushed a colleague.  I don't get me started on going on long term sick when someone farts in their general direction.

You name it, I've seen it/dealt with it.  Trade unions would be the fundamental reason why i left the industry and returned to my IT roots.
I can go ahead and die now. I 100% re-affirm and agree with m3thod.
LOL! Well miracles do happen :p
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-02-17 13:38:52
Ratzinger
Member
+43|6683|Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Just missing the point right, left, and centre.

Regardless of your bad experiences with unions (and that will differ greatly from country to country and union to union) they can't begin to compete with the corruption of local govt. For every example of a union agent raking off his cut or protecting some lowlife's job, there are 30 examples of bodgy tenders and slush funds in council depts.

Try to see past your own nose......
2007-02-17 14:28:27
BVC
Member
+325|6987
Yes.  Whether you're a public servent does not affect that you're entitled to fair pay.
2007-02-17 15:35:02
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

Ratzinger wrote:

Just missing the point right, left, and centre.

Regardless of your bad experiences with unions (and that will differ greatly from country to country and union to union) they can't begin to compete with the corruption of local govt. For every example of a union agent raking off his cut or protecting some lowlife's job, there are 30 examples of bodgy tenders and slush funds in council depts.

Try to see past your own nose......
Well, that I can agree with.  Governments are usually allied with the interests of corporations.  Unfortunately, this typically means that workers get shafted by the government while it is in collusion with the corporations in question.

However, unions often behave like a mob of sorts, where the "dues" paid don't really go toward fighting for the workers' benefits but into the pockets of the union leaders.

Essentially, you can't really trust corporations, governments, or unions.

So, the next best thing is to make your life as self-reliant as possible.  If you have the means and the talent, start your own business.

Obviously, a lot of people aren't able to do that effectively, but it's not like unions are usually going to help them.  Admittedly, some unions are actually effective and benevolent though....
2007-02-17 16:10:33
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6892|132 and Bush

So long as it does not interfere with someones health yes.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-17 17:53:00
Ratzinger
Member
+43|6683|Wollongong, NSW, Australia

Turquoise wrote:

Obviously, a lot of people aren't able to do that effectively, but it's not like unions are usually going to help them.  Admittedly, some unions are actually effective and benevolent though....
"Country to country" - Our unions are usually fairly small in the sense of paid officials, and delegates tend to be unpaid members of the workforce who attend meetings (in their own time now, it used to be time provided by the company, but Howard has smashed all that).

with the usual disclaimer "In My Experience".

 

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