An islamic extremist who wants to destroy a nation is comparable to that.sergeriver wrote:
I think he meant that many people argue that the Islamic extremists threat is comparable to Nazi Germany.
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- Germany/Italy issue arrest warrants for CIA
Wrong, it seems logical that the CIA would consider it positive when there is no news of their success. Their work is in secret and is supposed to go unnoticed - the failures are what hit the press. Counterintelligence agents specialize in leaking things that will be reported in order to throw off the agents of other countries, so any successes you hear about are probably false. Watch the movie "Good Shepherd" it gives a Hollywood glimpse of how misinformation is used to influence the decisions of enemy agents and their leadership. Quite interesting, though the true tactics are much more advanced than what is pictured after WW2. Most countries uses intelligence agents and the majority of the time I’m sure they’re tactics are illegal, so if you’re pointing at the US, try looking at the rest of Europe and the ME, too.Vilham wrote:
Well generally the successes are shown to the world why the failures are hidden away, however most of the time they get leaked out. So I think that most successes or failures are published. So work out how many successes you see in the news and failures. Compare fiqures and how well are you doing?
indeed, this is the start of the process..usmarine2007 wrote:
Americans are held accountable for their actions.
Why do you have to shoot the messenger. Were just pickup and delivery. Egypt is the one who did the torture.aardfrith wrote:
Yes, there's unlawfully kidnapping and murdering people and there's unlawfully kidnapping and torturing people. Kind of different but kind of the same.usmarine2007 wrote:
Kind of different circumstances.aardfrith wrote:
The Nuremburg war trials concluded this and I doubt it would stand up in any civilian court, either.
I have seen certain people on these forums being very quick to condemn a whole religion because of a few extreme acts and for not condemning them. I have yet to see any Americans condemn these incidents.
Political posturing is all this is.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
The problem is that rendition was done on purpose due to the PROTECTIONS you would have in the states so the purposefully fly you to a third party or secret military base and have at it in terms of how the treat you. I don't know what's more messed up the fact that we are taking civilians from their homes for months then purposefully taking them where they have less freedoms so we can possibly torture the "possible" terror suspects. Its call being a hypocrite, you don't not stand for something, but then avoid it due to an inconvenience, its there for a reason and its to protect individuals like this German national that was wrongfully detained.smtt686 wrote:
Why do you have to shoot the messenger. Were just pickup and delivery. Egypt is the one who did the torture.aardfrith wrote:
Yes, there's unlawfully kidnapping and murdering people and there's unlawfully kidnapping and torturing people. Kind of different but kind of the same.usmarine2007 wrote:
Kind of different circumstances.
I have seen certain people on these forums being very quick to condemn a whole religion because of a few extreme acts and for not condemning them. I have yet to see any Americans condemn these incidents.
The extradition treaty between the US and Germany is binding upon both parities and if they were to find the Agents identities and find them within US territory and ask for extradition, typically this will be met, but if they chose not to extradite then Germany will put a little note reminding them that this happened and in return you will receive the reciprocal treatment.
I for one as an American condemn such actions since it places us in no better position if we were to try them and give them rights within our own judicial system, and if for some reason they believe brining them here and giving them their natural rights is wrong then you simply need to ask yourself why even bother giving your own citizens these rights if you can simply disregard them when it comes to a matter of convenience.
Last edited by Fen321 (2007-02-01 12:53:36)
Why would we condem actions like these? I like reading about this shit. It lets me know my country is actively hunting down and catching these wackos. If we get the wrong guy now and then I can live with that. The guy is still alive to tell his story so what's the big deal.aardfrith wrote:
Yes, there's unlawfully kidnapping and murdering people and there's unlawfully kidnapping and torturing people. Kind of different but kind of the same.usmarine2007 wrote:
Kind of different circumstances.aardfrith wrote:
The Nuremburg war trials concluded this and I doubt it would stand up in any civilian court, either.
I have seen certain people on these forums being very quick to condemn a whole religion because of a few extreme acts and for not condemning them. I have yet to see any Americans condemn these incidents.
How about we kidnap you and torture you for nearly a year. When i mean torture i mean gruesome torture committed on these people.
But you can't. Your not the US and don't have the power. You could try personally but you probably don't have a drivers license yet. Maybe when you grow up you can come look me up? The weathers great this time of year.Vilham wrote:
How about we kidnap you and torture you for nearly a year. When i mean torture i mean gruesome torture committed on these people.
Last edited by rawls2 (2007-02-01 13:18:37)
It is amazing how lose lose this forum is with all the people who ALWAYS have something negative to say about America. If the CIA would have ignored this guy, and then IF he would have blown up something, we would see posts like.." ZOMG the CIA Fails" "BUSH can't protect America" blah blah blah. But, if the CIA acts we see "ZOMG CIA tortures" and "ZOMG America is evil."
Some of you, including mods, think all my posts are a contradiction. Well no shit sherlocks. When the same people cannot say anything but negative comments about anything having to do with America, and I try to defend it, it is going to seem contradictory isn't it?
Some of you, including mods, think all my posts are a contradiction. Well no shit sherlocks. When the same people cannot say anything but negative comments about anything having to do with America, and I try to defend it, it is going to seem contradictory isn't it?
When courts look at the Nuremburg Precedent they don't look at the severity of the crimes commited by the person charged, they look at the decision and how it compares with the current situation.usmarine2007 wrote:
Difference between this case, which was one person, and the Nuremberg Trial, which was millions of people who were exterminated, is a little different.
If the CIA guys use the "just acting under orders" excuse like Lt Calley did they will get shut down by the German/Italian prosecutors who will point out that German soldiers were executed in the Nuremburg who claimed to be "acting under orders" and how that was not accepted as a valid excuse.
Away from law and into politics, I would like to point out that is is a valid reason why many people "dislike" the United States, going into countries and kidnapping their citizens, flying them half way across the world and torturing them generates rage amongst many people who feel that it is a disgrace that one country in a world of nearly 200 can do that and get away with it.
I mean, hypothetically if a German spy agency kidnapped an American citizen (who they mistake for someone else) and flew them away to Tajikistan for torture there would be protests in the streets, universal condemnation and anger by Americans, and it would be likely that the president and congress would consider SERIOUS action against that nation. Now image the rage that you would feel if that happened to you an American citizen, German and Italian citizens are feeling that rage now and all it is doing is creating more Anti-American sentiment.
I respect the Germans and Italians for taking this through their judiciary and taking a mature approach to what can only be defined as "a delicate situation".
You can play the what if game, but last time I checked, someone living in America has not gone over to Germany to blow something up.TeamZephyr wrote:
I mean, hypothetically if a German spy agency kidnapped an American citizen (who they mistake for someone else) and flew them away to Tajikistan for torture there would be protests in the streets, universal condemnation and anger by Americans, and it would be likely that the president and congress would consider SERIOUS action against that nation. Now image the rage that you would feel if that happened to you an American citizen, German and Italian citizens are feeling that rage now and all it is doing is creating more Anti-American sentiment.
I'm not trying to play the "what if" game, I'm trying to make you see the reasons for anti-American sentiment that many of these countries have. Admit it, if that situation did occur you would have A LOT of anti-German sentiment and I'm merely trying to make a point and how some of these places feel about American intrusion into their countries.usmarine2007 wrote:
You can play the what if game, but last time I checked, someone living in America has not gone over to Germany to blow something up.TeamZephyr wrote:
I mean, hypothetically if a German spy agency kidnapped an American citizen (who they mistake for someone else) and flew them away to Tajikistan for torture there would be protests in the streets, universal condemnation and anger by Americans, and it would be likely that the president and congress would consider SERIOUS action against that nation. Now image the rage that you would feel if that happened to you an American citizen, German and Italian citizens are feeling that rage now and all it is doing is creating more Anti-American sentiment.
You think I don't understand that? Well I do. But you have to understand why there are "intrusions." Pretty much why is what I said a couple posts ago.TeamZephyr wrote:
I'm not trying to play the "what if" game, I'm trying to make you see the reasons for anti-American sentiment that many of these countries have. Admit it, if that situation did occur you would have A LOT of anti-German sentiment and I'm merely trying to make a point and how some of these places feel about American intrusion into their countries.
well said man. I agree, it seems to me The big 'ole U.S of A is the major player actively hunting suspected terrorists. its been happening for years. If my house was attacked by the nutjob over the road i would do exactly the same to his house, +1 so he knew i meant business. I dont slate America.usmarine2007 wrote:
It is amazing how lose lose this forum is with all the people who ALWAYS have something negative to say about America. If the CIA would have ignored this guy, and then IF he would have blown up something, we would see posts like.." ZOMG the CIA Fails" "BUSH can't protect America" blah blah blah. But, if the CIA acts we see "ZOMG CIA tortures" and "ZOMG America is evil."
Some of you, including mods, think all my posts are a contradiction. Well no shit sherlocks. When the same people cannot say anything but negative comments about anything having to do with America, and I try to defend it, it is going to seem contradictory isn't it?
I believe you are referring to the line about islamic extremists trying to blow up the world.usmarine2007 wrote:
You think I don't understand that? Well I do. But you have to understand why there are "intrusions." Pretty much why is what I said a couple posts ago.TeamZephyr wrote:
I'm not trying to play the "what if" game, I'm trying to make you see the reasons for anti-American sentiment that many of these countries have. Admit it, if that situation did occur you would have A LOT of anti-German sentiment and I'm merely trying to make a point and how some of these places feel about American intrusion into their countries.
I don't think that ANYONE whether it's the President of the USA or the President of the Dominican Republic has the right to justify violation of a nation's soveignty/right to not be tortured/right to legal representation/right to remain silent (I could go on) in the name of "fighting Islamic Terrorism."
The Coalition and the USA does not have the right to conduct "intrusions" into other countries to kidnap and torture, do it within your own country if you REALLY HAVE TO but going into another country and forcing your agenda in it's populance is something which there is no proper justification for.
Good lord man, this has been going on in every country, by every country for many years.TeamZephyr wrote:
The Coalition and the USA does not have the right to conduct "intrusions" into other countries to kidnap and torture, do it within your own country if you REALLY HAVE TO but going into another country and forcing your agenda in it's populance is something which there is no proper justification for.
I know, it is a disgraceful abuse of human rights that should be stamped out immediately.usmarine2007 wrote:
Good lord man, this has been going on in every country, by every country for many years.TeamZephyr wrote:
The Coalition and the USA does not have the right to conduct "intrusions" into other countries to kidnap and torture, do it within your own country if you REALLY HAVE TO but going into another country and forcing your agenda in it's populance is something which there is no proper justification for.
Indeed, its rather comical how most of these acts are covered in IL, but the one that isn't even mentioned is espionage. lol nothing regulates it since it would be a complete contradiction with its intended purpose.
I find it rather difficult to label someone as bashing America for its actions when you would find the same criticism focused on any state that participated in this practice.
US intelligence failures are of vast importance to the public both at home and abroad because for the most part the normal populace has very LIMITED impact on what is going on behind closed doors. Hence the controversy of having a democratic society with organizations such as the CIA, but don't get me wrong i understand the need for them I'm just simply stating its difficult thing to function with in the states due to obvious reasons.
And yes the media will only get the negative sides of stories due to this being the only time it will come to public light of their intended actions being scrutinized by congress. Eventually we will see all the nasty "successful" actions done by the CIA which when you look at it don't exactly paint the picture of a benevolent organization bent on stopping "bad guys," but again this is but a fraction of what the intelligence community is about :S
I find it rather difficult to label someone as bashing America for its actions when you would find the same criticism focused on any state that participated in this practice.
US intelligence failures are of vast importance to the public both at home and abroad because for the most part the normal populace has very LIMITED impact on what is going on behind closed doors. Hence the controversy of having a democratic society with organizations such as the CIA, but don't get me wrong i understand the need for them I'm just simply stating its difficult thing to function with in the states due to obvious reasons.
And yes the media will only get the negative sides of stories due to this being the only time it will come to public light of their intended actions being scrutinized by congress. Eventually we will see all the nasty "successful" actions done by the CIA which when you look at it don't exactly paint the picture of a benevolent organization bent on stopping "bad guys," but again this is but a fraction of what the intelligence community is about :S
You have to understand... people only cry when CIA fails. And they clearly failed in this case.usmarine2007 wrote:
It is amazing how lose lose this forum is with all the people who ALWAYS have something negative to say about America. If the CIA would have ignored this guy, and then IF he would have blown up something, we would see posts like.." ZOMG the CIA Fails" "BUSH can't protect America" blah blah blah. But, if the CIA acts we see "ZOMG CIA tortures" and "ZOMG America is evil."
Though, I must admit, being CIA agent is not a job you'd receive many thanks for.
Also you should know (and I'm sure you know) that many of us do indeed appreciate the good stuff about the States. I mean, cheap hardware, for example. Eherm.
Oh yes, and I think many Americans feel a too great responsibility for their country's actions - if any non-American criticizes policies, he does not criticize you, I mean - we all kinda like you guys over there. It's just so damn hard for us to imagine how one could actually follow almost everything going on over there.
It is amazing how sensitive some people are about the actions of their countrymen.usmarine2007 wrote:
It is amazing how lose lose this forum is with all the people who ALWAYS have something negative to say about America. If the CIA would have ignored this guy, and then IF he would have blown up something, we would see posts like.." ZOMG the CIA Fails" "BUSH can't protect America" blah blah blah. But, if the CIA acts we see "ZOMG CIA tortures" and "ZOMG America is evil."
Some of you, including mods, think all my posts are a contradiction. Well no shit sherlocks. When the same people cannot say anything but negative comments about anything having to do with America, and I try to defend it, it is going to seem contradictory isn't it?
It is amazing how bad news generates so much more reaction than good news.
It is amazing how easy it is to wind some people up in here.
I have seen one American condemn the actions of the CIA in these cases. Just one. If it were the UK, I'd be the first to show my outrage. If it were Argentina, I doubt Sergeriver would be quiet. But it's the USA this time and we're not allowed to criticize them, are we?
Quite frankly, most of the human rights abuses that are reported in the media these days are purpetrated (how do you spell that word?) by the USA. Make a thread about something good they've done for human rights and I will most probably praise them for it.
Maybe they were Israeli agents pretending to be English agents pretending to be American agents.
I saw that on a movie once. It was the Jews, they are using the blacks as muscle against you! Go Germany, right this terrible wrong if it is right that it actually happened because they could be wrong.
I saw that on a movie once. It was the Jews, they are using the blacks as muscle against you! Go Germany, right this terrible wrong if it is right that it actually happened because they could be wrong.
Great, we'll let the German government know how you feel so they can send over their equiv of the CIA to kidnap you, fly you to some foreign country where they will torture you for a year and then let you go with not so much as a fuck you gently.rawls2 wrote:
But you can't. Your not the US and don't have the power. You could try personally but you probably don't have a drivers license yet. Maybe when you grow up you can come look me up? The weathers great this time of year.Vilham wrote:
How about we kidnap you and torture you for nearly a year. When i mean torture i mean gruesome torture committed on these people.
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- Germany/Italy issue arrest warrants for CIA