Fen321
Member
+54|6925|Singularity

kilgoretrout wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

More saber rattling...
Doesn't saber "rattling" imply that you aren't taking the saber out and stabbing people with it?  It sure seems like attacking our soldiers is saber stabbing...  You might even call killing our troops an overt act of war, but who's counting?
I am, so far 0 confirmations of Iranian involvement...............plenty of confirmations of US intent to fuck over Iran.

US labeling them an "Axis of EVIL"

Starting in 2003 when we rejected a deal over their nuclear program and told them to kiss off (ironic now we ask them for the same deal that they offered in 2003).

Congressional (fabrication?) of an IAEA report that mislead people to believe that they had weapons grade Uranium already available.

Push the UN to SANCTION them over their plans to pursue "peaceful" nuclear ambitions, which they are entitled to under the NPT, go read it.

Honestly the US doesn't like Iran for whatever reason, honestly the rational has gone from BOOM 9/11 invade Afghanistan......shift focus...Iraq.........shift focus Iran.....where in the world did the war on terror go?
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6814

Pierre wrote:

ATG wrote:

The Iranians may be responsible the conducting the attack that resulted in the murder of five American soldiers in Karbala.

On January 20th, a team of twelve men disguised as U.S. soldiers entered the Provincial Joint Coordination Center in Karbala, where U.S. soldiers conducted a meeting with local officials, and attacked and killed five soldiers, and wounded another three. The initial reports indicated the five were killed in the Karbala JCC, however the U.S. military has reported that four of those killed were actually removed from the center, handcuffed, and murdered.
I smell a rat...

Germany 1939, Polish border, Gleiwitz incident anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

The Gleiwitz incident was a staged attack on 31 August 1939 against the German radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, Germany on the eve of World War II in Europe.

This provocation was one of several actions in Operation Himmler, a Nazi Germany project to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany, which would be used to justify the subsequent invasion of Poland.
I bet this is all fabricated by US. Iran does not have US SUV's, uniforms, etc. They have nothing to gain with a war between them and the US.
It is good to question authority, but some people take it too damn far, example you and other conspiracy theorists. You are wasting oxygen, go cuddle a bunny (Mod-Edit).
Fen321
Member
+54|6925|Singularity

Commie Killer wrote:

Pierre wrote:

ATG wrote:

The Iranians may be responsible the conducting the attack that resulted in the murder of five American soldiers in Karbala.

On January 20th, a team of twelve men disguised as U.S. soldiers entered the Provincial Joint Coordination Center in Karbala, where U.S. soldiers conducted a meeting with local officials, and attacked and killed five soldiers, and wounded another three. The initial reports indicated the five were killed in the Karbala JCC, however the U.S. military has reported that four of those killed were actually removed from the center, handcuffed, and murdered.
I smell a rat...

Germany 1939, Polish border, Gleiwitz incident anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

The Gleiwitz incident was a staged attack on 31 August 1939 against the German radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, Germany on the eve of World War II in Europe.

This provocation was one of several actions in Operation Himmler, a Nazi Germany project to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany, which would be used to justify the subsequent invasion of Poland.
I bet this is all fabricated by US. Iran does not have US SUV's, uniforms, etc. They have nothing to gain with a war between them and the US.
It is good to question authority, but some people take it too damn far, example you and other conspiracy theorists. You are wasting oxygen, kill yourself.
haha if that were the case i gues everyone advocating the invasion/attack on Iran should go kill themselves. Nice one

The parallel the person is drawing very fitting, makes you think doesn't it?

Last edited by Fen321 (2007-01-31 13:04:52)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

oug wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You can't see the problem with everyone having nuclear weapons? Yes, it is hypocritical for some to dictate who should have them, but shouldn't we be going in the other direction?. I'm not worried so much about Iran using them but perhaps them giving them to their favorite proxy Hezzbbolah. Mutual assured destruction only works when everyone operates under the same modern rules and morals.
So, how do you imagine this taking place exactly? What if Hezbolah did have nukes? Why doesn't mutual destruction work for them? They from Mars or something?

As far as the other direction is concerned... I fully agree. The next best thing from everyone having nukes, is nobody having them. So go ahead US, Russia, etc etc, make the first step.

On a serious note, having passed the fantasy world scenarios, rest assured that no nation or organization of any kind would dream of going unpunished should they be involved in a nuclear attack. Nuclear weapons have no real use. Their sole purpose is to ensure that nobody crosses the line. As such, they assure the integrity of any nation that possesses them and nothing more.
Iran already has a history of supplying them with weapons. The point of a proxy is to be able to deny responsibility. It doesn't work becuase you are draw the same moral equvilancy with everyone on the planet, including known terrorist organizations.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

iamangry wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

iamangry wrote:

I think the answer to this problem is simple.  I think the military needs to show the Iranians that NO shit like this will be tolerated.  They want to kill our soldiers?  Fine.  For every soldier in Iraq executed at the hands of people working directly for the Iranian government I say we fire a cruise missile at one of their military targets.  Or hell, a low yield tactical nuke.  n00bs want nukes, I say we send them airmail via the USPS ballistic first class.  Okay, that might be a little extreme, but regardless, we need to give them a swift kick to the ass for this stuff in Iraq.
In order to be consistent, we'll need to do the same to Saudi Arabia, since they've been funding and aiding the Sunni insurgents in Iraq.
Oh no, not true!  First we have to stop selling them our military hardware, then let them get overthrown by a religious fanatic, then let them hold our people hostage, then sell them more stuff, then forget about them for 12 years or so, then get mad at them for trying to build nukes, then get UN sanctions imposed on them. 
Thats how you remain consistent!
LOL...  I can't argue with that...  Good post... 
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:


Both, though most Christians rarely follow that principle to the exclusion of variation.
In other words, the anti-war people are closer to Christ in that regard.... ironic...

Nevertheless, there are plenty of people who would just like to have less war.  I'm one of those people, and I don't see how fighting Iran would be a good idea in any regard.  I realize war is sometimes necessary, but Iraq wasn't, and neither is Iran.
Of course, the extent of adherence and exceptions allowed all depends on doctrinal interpretation, all of which is subject to the scrutiny of those who do not believe in any of it.
True...  You've inspired a new thread idea for me...  This should be interesting...
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

fadedsteve wrote:

Once Olmert(current Israeli PM) is gone, and they get an Israeli with bigger balls, you watch how Israel responds to Irans continued pursuit of nukes! I hope Netanyahu come back!! That guy puts up with ZERO shit!!

The Iranian people arent thrilled with Amenedjahd, dont kid yourself! He just happens to run an oppresive regime that silences disenters! Believe me, the average Iranian doesnt want the USA to start attacking, they know what kind of power we bring to the table!
Steve, I say this with all seriousness....  You're insane.

Israel needs to stay the fuck out of this whole ordeal.  They have enough problems as it is, and dealing with Syria and Lebanon on a daily basis should be their concern, not attacking Iran.

I'm glad you at least realize that the average Iranian isn't being represented by Ahmadinejad though.  The only reason he's still in power is due to the machinations of the Ayatollah.  If we want Iran to change for the better, the Ayatollah must be removed (and his ultraconservative supporters).
aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7219

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

aardfrith wrote:

ATG wrote:

Can somebody please explain to me why it is in the Iranians best interest to be picking a fight with us?
I know they want Iraq, but if they get caught killing Americans a large portion of the U.S. population will support war against Iran.
Probably for the same reason that the US thinks it's okay to kidnap European citizens, cart them off to Afghanistan and torture them.

It's fucked up and it shouldn't happen.
Since when did the US did that...
Khaled al-Masri, a German citizen, was allegedly kidnapped in Macedonia and flown to Afghanistan for interrogation.  13 arrest warrants have been issued against suspected CIA officers on suspicion of abduction and grievous bodily harm.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6316369.stm

Osama Mustafa Hassan, an Egyptian national that had been granted refugee status in Italy, was abducted from the streets of Milan and flown to Egypt for interrogation and torture, it is alleged.  A Milan court is holding a hearing to decide whether to indict 25 suspected CIA officers for this case.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6243991.stm
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

JahManRed wrote:

Its the double standards that get me.

The US and Russia started this global nuclear deterrent strategy. Personally I think the threat of mutually assured destruction is what has kept us apart over the years. But why should Pakistan, India, UK, France, Israel and the USA have the only cover against nuclear destruction? Who makes these rules? India or Pakistan were not threatened with invasion when they developed their nukes.
It is no coincidence that Iran began developing nuclear technologies after the Iraqi Invasion.

What was to stop NATO invading Russia during the collapse of Communism when the union was in disarray? Nukes. Yes NATO probably wouldn't have invaded either way, but those nukes were an insurance policy.
Iran's neighbor was invaded on sexed up intel and while that was going on constant threats were issued to Iran. If I was an Iranian citizen I would most defiantly want my government to get us a dam insurance policy asap. The USA should be more worried about the Pakistan and Indian nuclear arsenals.

This media story is most likely more spin and propaganda designed to make the American people more ready to fund another invasion if the need arises.
I totally agree.  Pakistan is a time bomb.  I'd much rather trust Iran than Pakistan.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6794|Columbus, Ohio

usmarine2007 wrote:

Bernadictus wrote:

Ottomania wrote:

its not easy to invade Iran like Iraq.
Yep it isn't, that is why they'll carpet Iran back to the dark ages.
Would you two Patton's mind telling us why?
cough
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Bernadictus wrote:


Yep it isn't, that is why they'll carpet Iran back to the dark ages.
Would you two Patton's mind telling us why?
cough
*shrugs*  Think mountains...  lots of mountains.  Remember how annoying it was when we were trying to flush terrorists out of caves in Afghanistan (and still are doing)?  Multiply that by about 1,000.

The ironic thing is that Iran is, terrain-wise, an insurgent's wet dream.  It's a country highly dependent on transportation that must cross mountains and earthquake prone areas.  This is why I suggest supporting an insurgency within Iran rather than all-out fighting them.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6794|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


Would you two Patton's mind telling us why?
cough
*shrugs*  Think mountains...  lots of mountains.  Remember how annoying it was when we were trying to flush terrorists out of caves in Afghanistan (and still are doing)?  Multiply that by about 1,000.

The ironic thing is that Iran is, terrain-wise, an insurgent's wet dream.  It's a country highly dependent on transportation that must cross mountains and earthquake prone areas.  This is why I suggest supporting an insurgency within Iran rather than all-out fighting them.
Thank you.  Smart post.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina
thanks
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6794|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

thanks
Welcome.


But... Isn't that what we did with the taliban in order to fight the Russians?  Tough call if you ask me.
Fen321
Member
+54|6925|Singularity
I'm sure we are doing it right now to be honest, those anti-government sentiments that the youth has will be used against the administration. Lets see if the CIA can succeed in over through their government (again)....perhaps another Iranian revolution and a contra scandal can develop ...Ortega is waiting in Nicaragua ...>_>
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

thanks
Welcome.


But... Isn't that what we did with the taliban in order to fight the Russians?  Tough call if you ask me.
Good point...  We royally fucked the whole region up by what we did in Afghanistan.  Above all other options, I prefer isolationism and domestic defense, but if we must interfere with Iran, we might as well use the insurgency approach.  Like in Afghanistan, it will work better than fighting them head-on in the short run.  We'll just have to probably take out the next government that forms in Iran later on.

However....  There is something different about the idea I present.  I'm suggesting an insurgency of pro-Western reformists.  Granted, it is usually difficult to get educated moderates and reformists to actually act as an insurgency.  However, I think it is still very possible.

As you and others have said, if they see how the Ayatollah is putting them in a position to get attacked, that will likely grow more and more persuasive to them as a motivation for rebelling against the government.  With the way that the Ayatollah has made it so difficult for reformists to run, they're already disenfranchised.  All they need now is a little "push."  That push might just come in the form of weaponry.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Fen321 wrote:

I'm sure we are doing it right now to be honest, those anti-government sentiments that the youth has will be used against the administration. Lets see if the CIA can succeed in over through their government (again)....perhaps another Iranian revolution and a contra scandal can develop ...Ortega is waiting in Nicaragua ...>_>
Good points...  We just need someone much smarter than Oliver North to run this.  That guy was a fucking moron.
BVC
Member
+325|7123

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Ottomania wrote:

its not easy to invade Iran like Iraq.
You don't need to invade Iran to defeat them.
+1 for you!

The Chinese know it, conquest doesn't have to be a military endeavour.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

Pubic wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Ottomania wrote:

its not easy to invade Iran like Iraq.
You don't need to invade Iran to defeat them.
+1 for you!

The Chinese know it, conquest doesn't have to be a military endeavour.
Tell them to stop blowing satellites up then..lol
Xbone Stormsurgezz
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6946|Πάϊ

Kmarion wrote:

Iran already has a history of supplying them with weapons. The point of a proxy is to be able to deny responsibility. It doesn't work becuase you are draw the same moral equvilancy with everyone on the planet, including known terrorist organizations.
There's a huge difference between some ak47s and a nuke. One does not imply the other in any way.

Denying responsibility in that sense loses its meaning when it comes to nukes. A bomb in Iran for example would have massive effects in the entire region with millions affected regardless of boarders and nationalities.

Imagine a scenario where Hezbolah attacks the US with a nuke. There's no doubt in my mind that the US would not hesitate to retaliate on any country Hezbolah is known to operate (to say the least). Proxies of that sort only work in conventional warfare.
ƒ³
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7082|United States of America

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

thanks
Welcome.


But... Isn't that what we did with the taliban in order to fight the Russians?  Tough call if you ask me.
you guys should give each other a big hug.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7195
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

I don't write the news bud. Han't been released yet.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said administration officials "want to make sure that the briefing … is dominated by facts: serial numbers, technology and so on. And so we just want to make sure that the briefing that is provided is completely reliable."

•Charge:

Iranian weapons, identical to those seized by Israel in 2002, have been found in Iraq.

Evidence: The chartered ship Karine A, which was registered in the Pacific island nation of Tonga, was carrying rockets, grenades and sniper rifles from Iran to the Mediterranean via the Red Sea for delivery to the Palestine Liberation Organization in Gaza, according to the Israeli government. It also carried the powerful plastic explosive known as C-4, Army Maj. Gen. Richard Zahner said in September. C-4 found in Baghdad had identical labels to that found on the ship, he said. Zahner, a top military intelligence official, said the government of Iran controls military-grade explosives.

•Charge:

Weapons with Iranian serial numbers have been seized in Iraq.

Evidence: Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the U.S. military's No. 2 general in Iraq, told USA TODAY last week that Iran had supplied Iraqi insurgent groups with Katyusha rockets and RPG-29, a rocket-propelled grenade that can fire armor-piercing rounds. Odierno did not provide details on the serial numbers.

•Charge:

Iran is supplying technology and training to Shiite militia groups to build more powerful roadside bombs.

Evidence: At an August news conference, Brig. Gen. Michael Barbero called the evidence "irrefutable" that Iran was responsible for "training, funding and equipping" Shiite extremist groups to attack U.S. troops. Barbero and others say that improvised explosive devices (IEDs) account for 70% of U.S. casualties in Iraq.


oug wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Iran already has a history of supplying them with weapons. The point of a proxy is to be able to deny responsibility. It doesn't work becuase you are draw the same moral equvilancy with everyone on the planet, including known terrorist organizations.
There's a huge difference between some ak47s and a nuke. One does not imply the other in any way.

Denying responsibility in that sense loses its meaning when it comes to nukes. A bomb in Iran for example would have massive effects in the entire region with millions affected regardless of boarders and nationalities.

Imagine a scenario where Hezbolah attacks the US with a nuke. There's no doubt in my mind that the US would not hesitate to retaliate on any country Hezbolah is known to operate (to say the least). Proxies of that sort only work in conventional warfare.
That is a nice rational idea. However, some don't believe Ahmadinejad to be a rational person. Supplying Katusha rockets, writing check to suicide bombers, and telling the world to bow to Iran. This guy is trying to bring about Armageddon. He is a religious freak.

In the 1930s, Hitler told us what he was going to do and we ignored it for years and years and years. In the 1990s, the terrorists told us what they were going to do and we ignored it.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-08 15:12:57)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7169|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
The United States today spends approximately as much as the rest of the world combined on its military establishment. So it is worth pondering why it is that, after nearly four years of effort, the loss of thousands of American lives, and an outlay of perhaps half-a-trillion dollars, the US has not succeeded in pacifying a small country of some 24 million people, much less in leading it to anything that looks remotely like a successful democracy.
One answer is that the nature of global politics in the first decade of the 21st century has changed in important ways. Today's world, at least in that band of instability that runs from north Africa and through the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa and central Asia, is characterised by numerous weak and sometimes failed states, and by transnational actors who are able to move fluidly across international borders, abetted by the same technological capabilities that produced globalisation. States such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, Palestine and a host of others are not able to exercise sovereign control over their territory, ceding power and influence to terrorist groups such as al-Qaida, political parties-cum-militias such as Hizbullah in Lebanon, or various ethnic and sectarian factions elsewhere.

American military doctrine has emphasised the use of overwhelming force, applied suddenly and decisively, to defeat the enemy. But in a world where insurgents and militias deploy invisibly among civilian populations, overwhelming force is almost always counterproductive: it alienates precisely those people who have to make a break with the hardcore fighters and deny them the ability to operate freely. The kind of counterinsurgency campaign needed to defeat transnational militias and terrorists puts political goals ahead of military ones, and emphasises hearts and minds over shock and awe.

A second lesson that should have been drawn from the past five years is that preventive war cannot be the basis of a long-term US nonproliferation strategy. The Bush doctrine sought to use preventive war against Iraq as a means of raising the perceived cost to would-be proliferators of approaching the nuclear threshold. Unfortunately, the cost to the US itself was so high that it taught exactly the opposite lesson: the deterrent effect of American conventional power is low, and the likelihood of preventive war actually decreases if a country manages to cross that threshold.

A final lesson that should have been drawn from the Iraq war is that the current US government has demonstrated great incompetence in its day-to-day management of policy. One of the striking things about the performance of the Bush administration is how poorly it has followed through in accomplishing the ambitious objectives it set for itself. In Iraq, the administration has acted like a patient with attention-deficit disorder. The US succeeded in organising efficiently for key events such as the handover of sovereignty on June 30 2004, or the elections of January 30 2005. But it failed to train Iraqi forces, failed to appoint ambassadors, failed to perform due diligence on contractors and, above all, failed to hold accountable those officials most responsible for these and other multiple failures.

This lack of operational competence could in theory be fixed over time, but it has important short-term consequences for American grand strategy. Neoconservative theorists saw America exercising a benevolent hegemony over the world, using its enormous power wisely and decisively to fix problems such as terrorism, proliferation, rogue states, and human-rights abuses. But even if friends and allies were inclined to trust America's good intentions, it would be hard for them not to be dismayed at the actual execution of policy and the amount of broken china this particular bull left behind.

The failure to absorb Iraq's lessons has been evident in the neoconservative discussion of how to deal with Iran's growing regional power, and its nuclear programme. Iran today constitutes a huge challenge for the US, as well as for America's friends in the Middle East. Unlike al-Qaida, Iran is a state, deeply rooted historically (unlike Iraq) and flush with resources as a result of energy price rises. It is ruled by a radical Islamist regime that - particularly since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's election in June 2005 - has turned in a disturbingly intolerant and aggressive direction.

The US unintentionally abetted Iran's regional rise by invading Iraq, eliminating the Ba'athist regime as a counterweight, and empowering Shia parties close to Tehran. It seems reasonably clear that Iran wants nuclear weapons, despite protestations that its nuclear programme is only for civilian purposes; nuclear energy makes little sense for a country sitting on some of the world's largest oil reserves, but it makes sense as the basis for a weapons programme. It is completely rational for the Iranians to conclude that they will be safer with a bomb than without one.

It is easy to outline the obstacles to a negotiated end to the Iranian programme, but much harder to come up with an alternative strategy. Use of force looks very unappealing. The US is hardly in a position to invade and occupy yet another country, especially one three times larger than Iraq. An attack would have to be conducted from the air, and it would not result in regime change, which is the only long-term means of stopping the WMD programme. It is hard to have much confidence that US intelligence on Iranian facilities is any better than it was in the case of Iraq. An air campaign is much more likely to build support for the regime than to topple it, and will stimulate terrorism and attacks on American facilities and friends around the globe. The US would be even more isolated in such a war than during the Iraqi campaign, with only Israel as a certain ally.

None of these considerations, nor the debacle in Iraq, has prevented certain neoconservatives from advocating military action against Iran. Some insist that Iran poses an even greater threat than Iraq, avoiding the fact that their zealous advocacy of the Iraq invasion is what has destroyed America's credibility and undercut its ability to take strong measures against Iran.

All of this could well be correct. Ahmadinejad may be the new Hitler; the current negotiations could be our Munich accords; Iran could be in the grip of undeterrable religious fanatics; and the west might be facing a "civilisational" danger. I believe that there are reasons for being less alarmist. Iran is, after all, a state, with equities to defend - it should be deterrable by other states possessing nuclear weapons; it is a regional and not a global power; it has in the past announced extreme ideological goals but has seldom acted on them when important national interests were at stake; and its decision-making process appears neither unified nor under the control of the most radical forces.

What I find remarkable about the neoconservative line of argument on Iran, however, is how little changed it is in its basic assumptions and tonalities from that taken on Iraq in 2002, despite the momentous events of the past five years and the manifest failure of policies that neoconservatives themselves advocated. What may change is the American public's willingness to listen to them.

by Francis Fukuyama

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2007-02-08 15:48:12)

usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6794|Columbus, Ohio
Thanks Francis.  But you know shit about military doctrine.  Move along.

Last edited by usmarine2007 (2007-02-08 15:51:30)

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard