I poop on politics
Considering Congress has given itself a raise 8 times in the last 10 years, yeah... I'd say a rise in the minimum wage isn't such a bad thing.Cougar wrote:
Never thought I would say this but.......ROCK ON TED KENNEDY!!
I always had the assumption that he was a douche. Guess I was wrong.
I think Ted is better than some of Congress, but I wouldn't put him at the top either. He was more of a douche for the infamous bridge incident than anything else, but he seems to be making small steps toward making up for it.
Cougar was reported for a flame - it is a flame I suppose and warrants deletion but he's made some excellent points so um...
*slaps Cougar lightly on the wrist*
Iowing you are so wrong. SO wrong. I'm a student currently working at minimum wage, I still need a loan to cover my costs. No I can't help that and yes I am able bodied and willing to better myself. You may argue that I am in the process of that, but I'd rather not starve and be forced to give up if the minimum wage is too low for me to live on.
Some people cannot get to University to 'better themselves' because of their socio-economic status - it is VERY hard to jump classes without government support, and securing a reasonable minimum wage is key to this. Being able of body and mind is worth fuck all if you don't have the means to be able to use them.
Yes there will be people who don't care about their low income and with no wish to climb up the socio-economic ladder. There are also those who are fighting as hard as they can to live on a pathetically low minimum wage. Trying so damn hard but getting nowhere because they don't have the means. You say it's unrealistic for the government to help these people? You think it's energies would be better spent helping rich multinationals because they of course offer more the the GDP?
What bullshit. You seem to think that "In America if you are capable of body and mind you can get rich". That is I guess, the old American dream. It has never come true unless an incredible amount of luck has stepped in. Being able bodied, sound of mind and even willing is not enough. It never has been.
*slaps Cougar lightly on the wrist*
Iowing you are so wrong. SO wrong. I'm a student currently working at minimum wage, I still need a loan to cover my costs. No I can't help that and yes I am able bodied and willing to better myself. You may argue that I am in the process of that, but I'd rather not starve and be forced to give up if the minimum wage is too low for me to live on.
Some people cannot get to University to 'better themselves' because of their socio-economic status - it is VERY hard to jump classes without government support, and securing a reasonable minimum wage is key to this. Being able of body and mind is worth fuck all if you don't have the means to be able to use them.
Yes there will be people who don't care about their low income and with no wish to climb up the socio-economic ladder. There are also those who are fighting as hard as they can to live on a pathetically low minimum wage. Trying so damn hard but getting nowhere because they don't have the means. You say it's unrealistic for the government to help these people? You think it's energies would be better spent helping rich multinationals because they of course offer more the the GDP?
What bullshit. You seem to think that "In America if you are capable of body and mind you can get rich". That is I guess, the old American dream. It has never come true unless an incredible amount of luck has stepped in. Being able bodied, sound of mind and even willing is not enough. It never has been.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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I'd just have to say that I admire his enthusiasm. I also agree that it has taken too long for minimum wage to be raised. I mean honestly, some states governors have already passed laws that raise the minimum wage. Whats taking so long for Congress? It IS needed as the minimum wage was set for people nearly a decade and a half ago where prices for certain things that may have been $5.00 then, is now $10.00 today. So how can a person working on the archaic minimum wage be expected to live life to the standard of our modern day?
(btw, i'm republican, imo im moderate, and imo he has a point.)
(btw, i'm republican, imo im moderate, and imo he has a point.)
Last edited by Tucker71490 (2007-01-28 18:36:48)
I think what Coug is trying to get at is that $5 an hour isn't feasible for any person to live on, thus doing any job that pays so little is no longer worth doing, thus menial jobs don't get done.
Ok rather extreme and may not happen, but as it looks currently, all you have is the jobs getting done and the poor fuckers doing them are suffering because they can't really afford to live properly.
No-one and i mean no-one deserves to suffer poverty (short of rapists and murderers but I don't really count those as people), especially in a country as wealthy as the US, doesn't matter how or why they're on the bottom rung as someone put it, they're there and they're a part of society, they deserve the capacity to live their lives properly.
Ok rather extreme and may not happen, but as it looks currently, all you have is the jobs getting done and the poor fuckers doing them are suffering because they can't really afford to live properly.
No-one and i mean no-one deserves to suffer poverty (short of rapists and murderers but I don't really count those as people), especially in a country as wealthy as the US, doesn't matter how or why they're on the bottom rung as someone put it, they're there and they're a part of society, they deserve the capacity to live their lives properly.
Last edited by TheEternalPessimist (2007-01-28 18:34:27)
let me add to this:
the pay raise in the United States military that service members see every year has been the shortest in 5 years. food for thought.
the pay raise in the United States military that service members see every year has been the shortest in 5 years. food for thought.
I was about to post something along those lines GunSlinger. If congress can vote themselves raises as often as once a year, they ought to seriously consider raising the wages of those men and women who put their butts on the line to defend our freedoms.
To TY and Cougar.....
You may think lowing and I are wrong, but we think you two are wrong. All my training, including college, was done without working a normal job for the most part. While in flight school, I did some banner towing and did not even make minimum wage. When I was struck with an eye disease and could not fly for an airline anymore, I went and got my airplane mechanics license, along with a degree. I had to apprentice as a airplane mechanic on small airplanes and did not make minimum wage, let alone any health benefits or any time off really. I have come far enough to be trusted to help start an airline using millions of dollars of investors money. It can be done if the person really wants to. Even though I had to climb out from a mountain of debt, in a very unstable industry, it can be done. You guys cannot tell me that a lot of those people you refer to are there because they did not have an opportunity. They are because of their own choices or they just feel sorry for themselves.
You may think lowing and I are wrong, but we think you two are wrong. All my training, including college, was done without working a normal job for the most part. While in flight school, I did some banner towing and did not even make minimum wage. When I was struck with an eye disease and could not fly for an airline anymore, I went and got my airplane mechanics license, along with a degree. I had to apprentice as a airplane mechanic on small airplanes and did not make minimum wage, let alone any health benefits or any time off really. I have come far enough to be trusted to help start an airline using millions of dollars of investors money. It can be done if the person really wants to. Even though I had to climb out from a mountain of debt, in a very unstable industry, it can be done. You guys cannot tell me that a lot of those people you refer to are there because they did not have an opportunity. They are because of their own choices or they just feel sorry for themselves.
Last edited by usmarine2007 (2007-01-28 18:47:35)
I'll put it this way... Intelligence, luck, money, and education all play a part in advancing economically.
However, there is another factor that hasn't been mentioned -- connections.
More often than not, the people who become the most successful in America have powerful friends that helped them get there. Even most moderately successful people have to make a lot of connections to rise in income. So, it's not like hard work and education will get you success by themselves. A lot of success is political.
On the one hand, it's incorrect to assume that America is a meritocracy where anyone can succeed. On the other hand, it's incorrect to assume that government help is something that is mandatory for widespread success on a societal level. It really comes down to how you relate to people and who you know. At least, that's how my experience and the experiences of most people I've known has been.
It's just politics as usual....
However, there is another factor that hasn't been mentioned -- connections.
More often than not, the people who become the most successful in America have powerful friends that helped them get there. Even most moderately successful people have to make a lot of connections to rise in income. So, it's not like hard work and education will get you success by themselves. A lot of success is political.
On the one hand, it's incorrect to assume that America is a meritocracy where anyone can succeed. On the other hand, it's incorrect to assume that government help is something that is mandatory for widespread success on a societal level. It really comes down to how you relate to people and who you know. At least, that's how my experience and the experiences of most people I've known has been.
It's just politics as usual....
QFTusmarine2007 wrote:
To TY and Cougar.....
You may think lowing and I are wrong, but we think you two are wrong. All my training, including college, was done without working a normal job for the most part. While in flight school, I did some banner towing and did not even make minimum wage. When I was struck with an eye disease and could not fly for an airline anymore, I went and got my airplane mechanics license, along with a degree. I had to apprentice as a airplane mechanic on small airplanes and did not make minimum wage, let alone any health benefits or any time off really. I have come far enough to be trusted to help start an airline using millions of dollars of investors money. It can be done if the person really wants to. Even though I had to climb out from a mountain of debt, in a very unstable industry, it can be done. You guys cannot tell me that a lot of those people you refer to are there because of their own choices or they just feel sorry for themselves.
But dont you see those of us that make something of ourselves are the minority and are to be hated. We are the lucky few that had the stars align for us, and everything just fell into our laps...... /sarcasm
usmarine, I applaud you for that, your exploits are inspiring and I can see how you have the views that you have. But I'm sure you had benefits others do not have, likewise others have benefits you do not have.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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my mom had me on welfare when i was born. now shes on the top of her profession making 6 figures yearly. im too stuborn to take TOO many handouts from her. I plan on standing on my own two feet. its fucking hard though, but pride wont let me think other wise. although its good to know that she would have my back if i ever asked for help.
Sure it can be done. Anything can "be done", I mean we landed on the moon for crying out loud. However, your journey would have been a hell of a lot easier and more than likely a lot better for your current credit rating if the minimum wage was higher. Do you think just because you were able to make it on minimum wage long enough to get a degree that, literally, everyone in the country should be able to? That's just ludicrous.usmarine2007 wrote:
To TY and Cougar.....
You may think lowing and I are wrong, but we think you two are wrong. All my training, including college, was done without working a normal job for the most part. While in flight school, I did some banner towing and did not even make minimum wage. When I was struck with an eye disease and could not fly for an airline anymore, I went and got my airplane mechanics license, along with a degree. I had to apprentice as a airplane mechanic on small airplanes and did not make minimum wage, let alone any health benefits or any time off really. I have come far enough to be trusted to help start an airline using millions of dollars of investors money. It can be done if the person really wants to. Even though I had to climb out from a mountain of debt, in a very unstable industry, it can be done. You guys cannot tell me that a lot of those people you refer to are there because they did not have an opportunity. They are because of their own choices or they just feel sorry for themselves.
I joined the Marines also to use the GI bill, and was in the reserves after my active duty days. Someone who was unable to do so because of some physical or mental disorder would have had a harder time of course.Cougar wrote:
Sure it can be done. Anything can "be done", I mean we landed on the moon for crying out loud. However, your journey would have been a hell of a lot easier and more than likely a lot better for your current credit rating if the minimum wage was higher. Do you think just because you were able to make it on minimum wage long enough to get a degree that, literally, everyone in the country should be able to? That's just ludicrous.
Some small business can not afford it and it will close them down or force layoffs. How about not getting a paycheck at all, thats a pretty low minimum wage. Employers are only going to pay what they can afford or want to in payroll. You may get a raise but your buddy gets the boot out the door. Say good bye to all time lows in unemployment.Ty wrote:
usmarine, I applaud you for that, your exploits are inspiring and I can see how you have the views that you have. But I'm sure you had benefits others do not have, likewise others have benefits you do not have.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
How many heads of households do you know that work for minimum wage?
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-28 18:57:58)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
He has a good point though... Not everyone has the same abilities, so for you or lowing to assume that all others will succeed under the same conditions as you (or perhaps under much more dire ones) really is ludicrous.usmarine2007 wrote:
I joined the Marines also to use the GI bill, and was in the reserves after my active duty days. Someone who was unable to do so because of some physical or mental disorder would have had a harder time of course.Cougar wrote:
Sure it can be done. Anything can "be done", I mean we landed on the moon for crying out loud. However, your journey would have been a hell of a lot easier and more than likely a lot better for your current credit rating if the minimum wage was higher. Do you think just because you were able to make it on minimum wage long enough to get a degree that, literally, everyone in the country should be able to? That's just ludicrous.
Ideally, social systems are intended to level the playing field, but admittedly, they often just waste money on slackers. Personally, I just wish we could redesign welfare to be a more meritocratic system -- something that would inspire people to succeed, rather than something that people mooch off of.
Last edited by Turquoise (2007-01-28 18:59:28)
that GI bill is GOLD. and earned every friggin penny of it. i hate it when people i goto school with call it free money
Kmarion, this problem can be sidestepped by creating new tax breaks for small businesses and repealing some of the ones for big business. If we make it more affordable for small businesses to run with regards to taxation, then they will be able to pay their employees more.Kmarion wrote:
Some small business can not afford it and it will close them down or force layoffs. How about not getting a paycheck at all, thats a pretty low minimum wage. Employers are only going to pay what they can afford or want to in payroll. You my get a raise but your buddy gets the boot out the door. Say good bye to all time lows in unemployment.Ty wrote:
usmarine, I applaud you for that, your exploits are inspiring and I can see how you have the views that you have. But I'm sure you had benefits others do not have, likewise others have benefits you do not have.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
How many heads of households do you know that work for minimum wage?
I feel the bigger problem is health care. Everyone who works without insurance will sooner or later need medical care. So if these people who are getting minimum wage can finally afford health care then that would take a big burden off of them. Also, we should have congress make minimum wage and let them only live off of just social security when they retire. I have heard a few politicians say they are there to serve their country. Then lets treat them just like the military and no better.
Funny you should mention that when they are talking about revoking the current tax breaks at the same time. Also, this isn't a side step, it's just making the government pay for the wage increase.Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion, this problem can be sidestepped by creating new tax breaks for small businesses and repealing some of the ones for big business. If we make it more affordable for small businesses to run with regards to taxation, then they will be able to pay their employees more.Kmarion wrote:
Some small business can not afford it and it will close them down or force layoffs. How about not getting a paycheck at all, thats a pretty low minimum wage. Employers are only going to pay what they can afford or want to in payroll. You my get a raise but your buddy gets the boot out the door. Say good bye to all time lows in unemployment.Ty wrote:
usmarine, I applaud you for that, your exploits are inspiring and I can see how you have the views that you have. But I'm sure you had benefits others do not have, likewise others have benefits you do not have.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
How many heads of households do you know that work for minimum wage?
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-28 19:04:53)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Governments make sure that buisinesses can afford to pay their employees the required minimum wage, so although small buisinesses will have to do a bit of work initially, there would be no long term problem with them. If they do go belly up, by your own logic that would be their fault for not putting in the effort required to work at surviving, or are buisinesses exempt from your rule?Kmarion wrote:
Some small business can not afford it and it will close them down or force layoffs. How about not getting a paycheck at all, thats a pretty low minimum wage. Employers are only going to pay what they can afford or want to in payroll. You may get a raise but your buddy gets the boot out the door. Say good bye to all time lows in unemployment.Ty wrote:
usmarine, I applaud you for that, your exploits are inspiring and I can see how you have the views that you have. But I'm sure you had benefits others do not have, likewise others have benefits you do not have.
In a perfect, (albeit communistic world,) all men are created equal, but that's always been bullshit. Some people have no choice but to work for minimum wage. There are those of course who don't give a shit, but why should those who have no other choice be denied a small increase in their wages? America sure as Hell can afford it.
How many heads of households do you know that work for minimum wage?
Also Kmarion, I know very many heads of households who work for minimum wage - I work in a place that employs HEAPS of people at minimum wage and most of them are the head of their respective houses.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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First... I'm not a Democrat, and I think you can see where I disagree with them.Kmarion wrote:
Funny you should mention that when they are talking about revoke the current tax breaks at the same time. Also, this isn't a side step it's just making the government pay for the wage increase.Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion, this problem can be sidestepped by creating new tax breaks for small businesses and repealing some of the ones for big business. If we make it more affordable for small businesses to run with regards to taxation, then they will be able to pay their employees more.Kmarion wrote:
Some small business can not afford it and it will close them down or force layoffs. How about not getting a paycheck at all, thats a pretty low minimum wage. Employers are only going to pay what they can afford or want to in payroll. You my get a raise but your buddy gets the boot out the door. Say good bye to all time lows in unemployment.
How many heads of households do you know that work for minimum wage?
I'm all for repealing tax breaks for oil companies and big business. However, I think small businesses deserve some tax breaks. They are the backbone of our economy and middle class.
Second, I'm cool with the government paying for the wage increase -- especially if that means the rich will be the ones paying mostly for it.
As you can now see, I'm no longer a Libertarian. I'm a left-leaning independent with a civil libertarian streak.
Understood. Also note my signature is just a joke. I don't subscribe to a single party .Turquoise wrote:
First... I'm not a Democrat, and I think you can see where I disagree with them.Kmarion wrote:
Funny you should mention that when they are talking about revoke the current tax breaks at the same time. Also, this isn't a side step it's just making the government pay for the wage increase.Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion, this problem can be sidestepped by creating new tax breaks for small businesses and repealing some of the ones for big business. If we make it more affordable for small businesses to run with regards to taxation, then they will be able to pay their employees more.
I'm all for repealing tax breaks for oil companies and big business. However, I think small businesses deserve some tax breaks. They are the backbone of our economy and middle class.
Second, I'm cool with the government paying for the wage increase -- especially if that means the rich will be the ones paying mostly for it.
As you can now see, I'm no longer a Libertarian. I'm a left-leaning independent with a civil libertarian streak.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
@ Lowing:
Do you seriously think that the entire lower-class - tens of millions of people - are all just deadbeats who don't give a shit?
Seriously.
Do you seriously think that the entire lower-class - tens of millions of people - are all just deadbeats who don't give a shit?
Seriously.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
this thread is showing nothing new from lowing....
There were arguments about minimum wage/working class dating back to last summer
I'd suggest to just forget about trying to convince him
There were arguments about minimum wage/working class dating back to last summer
I'd suggest to just forget about trying to convince him