Pages: 1 2 3 4

 

2007-01-07 15:56:20
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6716|North Carolina

The Stillhouse Kid wrote:

Take a hungry 4 year-old and sit them at the dining table. Place in front of them a plate of vegetables that they don't like on the left and a bowl of their favorite ice cream on the right. Anyone can tell you that the kid will take the ice cream, but does our foreknowledge of the choice mean they have no free will?
That's an interesting analogy.

I think the important point of contention is that God is usually regarded as both omnipotent and omniscient.

Therefore, he/she/it created humans with the knowledge of which of us would make the right and wrong decisions.  So, from this perspective, he literally created some of us with the purpose of making the wrong choices.  Essentially, our natures are defined by his actions.  We are created with tendencies toward certain actions.

So, technically, free will still exists, but the odds are heavily stacked against certain people -- mostly by no choice of their own.

A God like this cannot be regarded as benevolent or compassionate in the least bit.  This is why I do not believe in a God.  Instead, it is only free will and circumstance that define us.  There is no deity with which to blame our failures on or credit our successes with.

This is our world, so let's stop speculating on the unknowable and instead work on improving the tangible aspects of existence.
2007-01-08 00:02:39
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7077|UK

Chief_(OwNaGe) wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Chief_(OwNaGe) wrote:

Why is everyone always trying to disprove religions? Just leave us alone...
We arent. We are stateing that in single god (monothestic) religion there is no free will.
But there is...
No there isnt. It quite literally is not possible. There can be no free will under an all knowing god. God will know every action you will ever take and what your morals will be in your life. Therefore any action you take even if it is bad, god has no right to judge you as he knew you would do that. You have no choice in the matter.
2007-01-08 02:26:07
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,062|7083|PNW

sergeriver wrote:

DesertFox423 wrote:

In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
If that's the case, then the illusion of free will is enough. I don't see how it serves God's purposes that I'm sitting here juggling two floppy disks in one hand, but it's sure fun.
2007-01-08 05:17:24
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7077|UK

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

DesertFox423 wrote:

In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
If that's the case, then the illusion of free will is enough. I don't see how it serves God's purposes that I'm sitting here juggling two floppy disks in one hand, but it's sure fun.
What a stupid comment. How does anything serve Gods purpose he is the creater of all. He knows everything ever. He cant gain anything. He is everything.
2007-01-08 07:30:12
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.
Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.

Last edited by EVieira (2007-01-08 07:31:00)

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 07:54:29
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7140

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.
Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.
But as God was making us God could see exactly what choices we were going to make. God had the option right there and then to change the way we work so that we would ultimately make different choices (change the world a bit, alter our biology a bit and we will make different choices). So by creating us in such a way that we were already pre-disposed to fail does kind of destroy the free will bit. God ultimately made us in such a way that we had to fail.

It's not my fault I fail, it's Gods fault for making me like this.
2007-01-08 08:00:09
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.
Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.
But as God was making us God could see exactly what choices we were going to make. God had the option right there and then to change the way we work so that we would ultimately make different choices (change the world a bit, alter our biology a bit and we will make different choices). So by creating us in such a way that we were already pre-disposed to fail does kind of destroy the free will bit. God ultimately made us in such a way that we had to fail.

It's not my fault I fail, it's Gods fault for making me like this.
So you fail because you and world are like this? Sorry, but thats pretty lame whether you believe in god made the world or not.

You always have a choice, whether you like it or not. Can a drunk driver blame God for killing someone? God made alcohol, and god made men to like alcohol... pfff... Did god make him irresponsible too, or was that his choice?
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 08:02:51
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7077|UK

EVieira wrote:

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

EVieira wrote:


Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.
But as God was making us God could see exactly what choices we were going to make. God had the option right there and then to change the way we work so that we would ultimately make different choices (change the world a bit, alter our biology a bit and we will make different choices). So by creating us in such a way that we were already pre-disposed to fail does kind of destroy the free will bit. God ultimately made us in such a way that we had to fail.

It's not my fault I fail, it's Gods fault for making me like this.
So you fail because you and world are like this? Sorry, but thats pretty lame whether you believe in god made the world or not.

You always have a choice, whether you like it or not. Can a drunk driver blame God for killing someone? God made alcohol, and god made men to like alcohol... pfff... Did god make him irresponsible too, or was that his choice?
Seeing as you have no choice over your morals you are wrong. If god knows what your morals are before you are born then what choice do you realy have? You morals effect every decision you make.
2007-01-08 08:10:10
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Vilham wrote:

EVieira wrote:

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:


But as God was making us God could see exactly what choices we were going to make. God had the option right there and then to change the way we work so that we would ultimately make different choices (change the world a bit, alter our biology a bit and we will make different choices). So by creating us in such a way that we were already pre-disposed to fail does kind of destroy the free will bit. God ultimately made us in such a way that we had to fail.

It's not my fault I fail, it's Gods fault for making me like this.
So you fail because you and world are like this? Sorry, but thats pretty lame whether you believe in god made the world or not.

You always have a choice, whether you like it or not. Can a drunk driver blame God for killing someone? God made alcohol, and god made men to like alcohol... pfff... Did god make him irresponsible too, or was that his choice?
Seeing as you have no choice over your morals you are wrong. If god knows what your morals are before you are born then what choice do you realy have? You morals effect every decision you make.
Who said you don't have choice on your morals? And even if your morals affect your decision, its your decision. Of course morals, time, place, history, personal beleifs, etc, affect your decision. But is still your decision. Don't go blaming some higher force...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 08:39:34
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7077|UK

EVieira wrote:

Vilham wrote:

EVieira wrote:


So you fail because you and world are like this? Sorry, but thats pretty lame whether you believe in god made the world or not.

You always have a choice, whether you like it or not. Can a drunk driver blame God for killing someone? God made alcohol, and god made men to like alcohol... pfff... Did god make him irresponsible too, or was that his choice?
Seeing as you have no choice over your morals you are wrong. If god knows what your morals are before you are born then what choice do you realy have? You morals effect every decision you make.
Who said you don't have choice on your morals? And even if your morals affect your decision, its your decision. Of course morals, time, place, history, personal beleifs, etc, affect your decision. But is still your decision. Don't go blaming some higher force...
God knows what you will do thus he makes you to fail. He KNOWS what you will choose to do, thus your only purpose is to go to hell. If you cant understand that basic idea you dont get what free will is.
2007-01-08 08:47:24
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Vilham wrote:

God knows what you will do thus he makes you to fail. He KNOWS what you will choose to do, thus your only purpose is to go to hell. If you cant understand that basic idea you dont get what free will is.
Wtf? Free will is supposed to be a one-way ticket to hell, where did that come from? Besides, depending on your religion/belief, god is quite forgiving. In Christianity, a religion very much attacked in these forums, God's son died to relinquish us of all our sins.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 09:09:52
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

EVieira wrote:

Vilham wrote:

God knows what you will do thus he makes you to fail. He KNOWS what you will choose to do, thus your only purpose is to go to hell. If you cant understand that basic idea you dont get what free will is.
Wtf? Free will is supposed to be a one-way ticket to hell, where did that come from? Besides, depending on your religion/belief, god is quite forgiving. In Christianity, a religion very much attacked in these forums, God's son died to relinquish us of all our sins.
So, since Jesus died for all of us, we can sin all the way without guilt?  How come you cry for Christianism, and you don't cry for Islam, a much attacked religion?  Your comment is totally biased.
2007-01-08 09:24:25
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6860|UK

sergeriver wrote:

DesertFox423 wrote:

In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
He may know what you are going to do, but you as an individual choose to do it, I do not belive he asings people to be murders and criminals, or by same token, preist's and doctors.  Certainly, the teachings of religion 'encourage' me to act in a certain way but I am in no way governed as to what I want to do.  Any christian can leave the religion and become athiest, or become the next pope!  All religion does at the very most is encourage you to act in a certain way, it doesnt make you and that I feel is the difference that many non religious people tend to overlook, and indeed religious to.

Martyn
2007-01-08 09:30:18
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

Bell wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

DesertFox423 wrote:

In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
He may know what you are going to do, but you as an individual choose to do it, I do not belive he asings people to be murders and criminals, or by same token, preist's and doctors.  Certainly, the teachings of religion 'encourage' me to act in a certain way but I am in no way governed as to what I want to do.  Any christian can leave the religion and become athiest, or become the next pope!  All religion does at the very most is encourage you to act in a certain way, it doesnt make you and that I feel is the difference that many non religious people tend to overlook, and indeed religious to.

Martyn
I understand what you say, but being God all knowing and letting you choose your own actions doesn't mean he is not controlling what you do.  Since he knows what you are going to do, there's no free will, there is a God who knows how the movie ends and who decides to watch it anyway.
2007-01-08 10:05:08
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

sergeriver wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Vilham wrote:

God knows what you will do thus he makes you to fail. He KNOWS what you will choose to do, thus your only purpose is to go to hell. If you cant understand that basic idea you dont get what free will is.
Wtf? Free will is supposed to be a one-way ticket to hell, where did that come from? Besides, depending on your religion/belief, god is quite forgiving. In Christianity, a religion very much attacked in these forums, God's son died to relinquish us of all our sins.
So, since Jesus died for all of us, we can sin all the way without guilt?  How come you cry for Christianism, and you don't cry for Islam, a much attacked religion?  Your comment is totally biased.
Who's crying for Christianity? Its an example, that's why I refered to it as "a religion". Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

And what bias are you talking about? I never said christianity is better or worsen than any other religion. You think everyone here is trying to defend christianity, that is totally biased...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 10:08:00
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

sergeriver wrote:

Bell wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
He may know what you are going to do, but you as an individual choose to do it, I do not belive he asings people to be murders and criminals, or by same token, preist's and doctors.  Certainly, the teachings of religion 'encourage' me to act in a certain way but I am in no way governed as to what I want to do.  Any christian can leave the religion and become athiest, or become the next pope!  All religion does at the very most is encourage you to act in a certain way, it doesnt make you and that I feel is the difference that many non religious people tend to overlook, and indeed religious to.

Martyn
I understand what you say, but being God all knowing and letting you choose your own actions doesn't mean he is not controlling what you do.
Serge, I don't get it. If you don't believe in god, where do you get the idea he is controlling everything?

sergeriver wrote:

Since he knows what you are going to do, there's no free will, there is a God who knows how the movie ends and who decides to watch it anyway.
I know when my wife is going to get pist at me, does that mean she has no free will?
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 10:14:29
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Wtf? Free will is supposed to be a one-way ticket to hell, where did that come from? Besides, depending on your religion/belief, god is quite forgiving. In Christianity, a religion very much attacked in these forums, God's son died to relinquish us of all our sins.
So, since Jesus died for all of us, we can sin all the way without guilt?  How come you cry for Christianism, and you don't cry for Islam, a much attacked religion?  Your comment is totally biased.
Who's crying for Christianity? Its an example, that's why I refered to it as "a religion". Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

And what bias are you talking about? I never said christianity is better or worsen than any other religion. You think everyone here is trying to defend christianity, that is totally biased...
As same as saying that most of the religious threads are opened by fanatical atheists.

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

I understand what you say, but being God all knowing and letting you choose your own actions doesn't mean he is not controlling what you do.
Serge, I don't get it. If you don't believe in god, where do you get the idea he is controlling everything?
I'm agnostic.  The idea of a God controlling everything is not mine, he is described as almighty and all knowing by the 3 Abrahamic religions.

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Since he knows what you are going to do, there's no free will, there is a God who knows how the movie ends and who decides to watch it anyway.
I know when my wife is going to get pist at me, does that mean she has no free will?
You ain't God.

Last edited by sergeriver (2007-01-08 10:21:26)

2007-01-08 10:28:31
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6860|UK

If we believe he created us, he gave us a brain to descifer what we want to do.  I dont think he has any control over what we do what so ever, you would think he'd intervene in murders, influence men of power to avoid war etc, but theres nothing.  You often hear people say why does he let bad things happen to good people?  Doubt he has much control over it without a pretty awsome display, BREAKING NEWS GOD TOTALLY PWNS BUSH and shit like that.  He doesnt descide what you do, but knows what you will do, therefor sent his son on earth to try and teach us to act differently, if he controlled us there would be no reason for Jesus and the christian church.  Not honouring thy mother?  *ZAP* now you do.

*edit*  I singed it twice

Martyn

Last edited by Bell (2007-01-08 10:29:33)

2007-01-08 10:34:08
OmniDeath
~
+726|6955

I'm surprised at how many religion based threads there are on these forums. Everyone who posts in defense of either argument is too hard headed to accept anything other than what they already believe and will continue to reject even the most valid arguments from either side. They just go back and forth and no one side ever convinces the other of anything that they didn't already believe. If anyone has serious questions like this they should ask people educated on the matter or do some research, not ask it to a bunch of (most likely) uneducated (on the topic) people on a gaming forum. Neither side of this argument has attempted to produce legit proof of their idea/belief, just their own "logic." For Christians who believe in free will, lets see some scripture. For non believers, lets see some proof from valid and credible sources.
2007-01-08 10:39:44
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

sergeriver wrote:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


So, since Jesus died for all of us, we can sin all the way without guilt?  How come you cry for Christianism, and you don't cry for Islam, a much attacked religion?  Your comment is totally biased.
Who's crying for Christianity? Its an example, that's why I refered to it as "a religion". Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

And what bias are you talking about? I never said christianity is better or worsen than any other religion. You think everyone here is trying to defend christianity, that is totally biased...
As same as saying that most of the religious threads are opened by fanatical atheists.

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

I understand what you say, but being God all knowing and letting you choose your own actions doesn't mean he is not controlling what you do.
Serge, I don't get it. If you don't believe in god, where do you get the idea he is controlling everything?
I'm agnostic.  The idea of a God controlling everything is not mine, he is described as almighty and all knowing by the 3 Abrahamic religions.
It is yours, it came from your head. It isn't said anywhere else, you just assumed that omnipotence and omniscience is controlling everything.

Like I already stated:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.
Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.
For an agnostic, you seem to worry too much on the fact that some people are religious.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 11:39:01
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7077|UK
Let me put it this way. If god knows all of time, everything that will ever happen. That means we are fated to do what he knows we will do. Therefore with fate there can NOT be free will. It is impossible for fate and free will to coexist.
2007-01-08 11:43:48
EVieira
Member
+105|6789|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Vilham wrote:

Let me put it this way. If god knows all of time, everything that will ever happen. That means we are fated to do what he knows we will do. Therefore with fate there can NOT be free will. It is impossible for fate and free will to coexist.
I see what you are saying, that this god could not ever be surprised. I guess you could be right. But I still don't see how that would take away my freedom of choice, even if a god knows me well enough to see which path I would choose. I'm still free to make my own choices, I know. I made some bad ones in the past...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-08 11:53:16
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6836|South Florida

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Another similar paradox to this one is that of God being all powerful.  It is said that there is nothing God cannot do.  If that is the case, then can God create something that is not within his control?  Now here is your paradox.  If God were to create something outside of his control, then he is no longer all powerful.  If he can't create something outside of his control, because that is impossible for an all powerful God, then he truly isn't all powerful because there is something he cannot do.
Shazam! List some more paradoxes to burn the creationsists

Last edited by Dezerteagal5 (2007-01-08 11:53:40)

15 more years! 15 more years!
2007-01-08 12:06:06
apollo_fi
The Flying Kalakukko.
+94|6841|The lunar module

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Another similar paradox to this one is that of God being all powerful.  It is said that there is nothing God cannot do.  If that is the case, then can God create something that is not within his control?  Now here is your paradox.  If God were to create something outside of his control, then he is no longer all powerful.  If he can't create something outside of his control, because that is impossible for an all powerful God, then he truly isn't all powerful because there is something he cannot do.
Shazam! List some more paradoxes to burn the creationsists
Erm... technically, the god of the example will remain all-powerful as long as he/she/it doesn't exercise the option of creating something out of his/her/its control.

There are better paradoxes for creationist burning purposes
2007-01-08 13:02:14
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

So, since Jesus died for all of us, we can sin all the way without guilt?  How come you cry for Christianism, and you don't cry for Islam, a much attacked religion?  Your comment is totally biased.
Who's crying for Christianity? Its an example, that's why I refered to it as "a religion". Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

And what bias are you talking about? I never said christianity is better or worsen than any other religion. You think everyone here is trying to defend christianity, that is totally biased...
As same as saying that most of the religious threads are opened by fanatical atheists.

EVieira wrote:


Serge, I don't get it. If you don't believe in god, where do you get the idea he is controlling everything?
I'm agnostic.  The idea of a God controlling everything is not mine, he is described as almighty and all knowing by the 3 Abrahamic religions.
It is yours, it came from your head. It isn't said anywhere else, you just assumed that omnipotence and omniscience is controlling everything.

Like I already stated:

EVieira wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.
Wrong, being omnipotent does not imply determining individuals choices. Your argument falls  part right there, you are making an assumption on Christianity's God. You'll find no passage in the bible stating that god will make any choice for you.
For an agnostic, you seem to worry too much on the fact that some people are religious.
I'm agnostic, which means I don't have all the answers so let me ask.

 

Pages: 1 2 3 4

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard