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2006-12-15 04:16:21
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina
According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.  That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors.

In Judaism, the belief in Free will is axiomatic and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment, based on the Torah.  Free will is therefore discussed at length in Jewish philosophy, firstly as regards God's purpose in creation, and secondly as regards the closely related, resultant, paradox.

Disputes about free will in Islam began with the Kharijite vs Murji'ite disputes, with the Kharijites arguing that humans had "qadar," the capacity to do right or wrong, and thus deserved the reward or punishment they received, whereas Murji'ites insisted on God's "jabr," or total power and initiative in managing all events.

How can Free Will exist if God has known what we would do in the future before "creating" all of us?
Where is the Free Will then? 
Why is there such a concept of reward and punishment if he already knew what we would do?

Last edited by sergeriver (2006-12-15 04:37:31)

2006-12-15 04:41:18
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6995|United States of America
In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
2006-12-15 04:47:17
Bernadictus
Moderator
+1,055|7048

Doesn't the Matrix control our thoughts?

No seriously, free will is no longer free under religion. Religion decides what someones will becomes.
2006-12-15 04:53:24
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7053|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
or, maybe freewill is an illusion of the brain? we believe that we have taken a decision where in fact it was made subconsciously a Milli second before we delude ourselves that we (as in our conscious self) made it..

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-12-15 04:54:06)

2006-12-15 05:29:16
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

DesertFox423 wrote:

In Christianity, the belief is that God gave us free will. We don't believe we're the little guys in RTS games and God is the player. ----MUST...GO....TO...JERUSALEM---- Sorry about that
How do you know you aren't a BF2 soldier?  Did God give you free will in person?  If he created everything, including you, and he knows everything, including what you will do, where does your free will go?
2006-12-15 05:32:37
Strngs012
Could I have 10,000 marbles please
+40|6729|Florida

Bernadictus wrote:

Doesn't the Matrix control our thoughts?

No seriously, free will is no longer free under religion. Religion decides what someones will becomes.
Maybe in certain religions it's that way, but Christianity is about a relationship with God. When your in a relationship you don't act controlling, you don't tell others what to do or where to go. Your with them because you want to be with them, Christianity is the same way. As a Christian I have the free will to go out and commit terrible sins if I want, but because I love the Lord I choose not to. Thats not to say that as a Christian I don't sin, because the Bible teaches that "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. Your comment above should not be lumped into religion, but should be under the category of a cult.
2006-12-15 05:43:59
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.  That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should read

"According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually KNOWS what choices individuals will make tomorrow."

It does not say he decided our choices he knows which ones we will make.....


THREAD CLOSED

Argue this:

"All Muslims are not terrorists, but all (most) terrorists are Muslim."
-quote i HEARD
2006-12-15 05:57:22
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6830|Adelaide, South Australia

Colfax wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.  That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should read

"According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually KNOWS what choices individuals will make tomorrow."

It does not say he decided our choices he knows which ones we will make.....
so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
2006-12-15 05:59:37
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

Colfax wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.  That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should read

"According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually KNOWS what choices individuals will make tomorrow."

It does not say he decided our choices he knows which ones we will make.....


THREAD CLOSED

Argue this:

"All Muslims are not terrorists, but all (most) terrorists are Muslim."
-quote i HEARD
If he knows what choices individuals will make tomorrow, then there's no such thing as free will.
2006-12-15 06:02:41
Strngs012
Could I have 10,000 marbles please
+40|6729|Florida

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

Colfax wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually determined what choices individuals will make tomorrow.  That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should read

"According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually KNOWS what choices individuals will make tomorrow."

It does not say he decided our choices he knows which ones we will make.....
so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
Thats why Jesus died on the Cross. His blood was shed for you, for all. It's up to you to decide if you accept it or not. Those who accept it will be saved, those who do not will be condemed.
2006-12-15 06:09:22
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7047|Salt Lake City

Strngs012 wrote:

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

Colfax wrote:


Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should read

"According to Christianity God is not only omniscient but omnipotent, which implies he has actually KNOWS what choices individuals will make tomorrow."

It does not say he decided our choices he knows which ones we will make.....
so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
Thats why Jesus died on the Cross. His blood was shed for you, for all. It's up to you to decide if you accept it or not. Those who accept it will be saved, those who do not will be condemed.
You ae missing the whole point.  Since God is all knowing, he already knows who will and will not be saved.  This is a basic paradox, philosophy 101 type stuff.  How is it possible to have both an all knowing god and still truly have free will?
2006-12-15 06:15:00
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois

sergeriver wrote:

If he knows what choices individuals will make tomorrow, then there's no such thing as free will.
yes there is.  he is not making those choices and does not intrude on them.  So yes it is free will.

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
Its not that he doesn't try to save them.  Its that they made the choice not to be saved.  If you forced someone to love you is that really love?  Or would you rather them choose to love you.  Watch the end of Bruce Almighty.  Explains free will very well.
2006-12-15 06:56:55
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7047|Salt Lake City

Colfax wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

If he knows what choices individuals will make tomorrow, then there's no such thing as free will.
yes there is.  he is not making those choices and does not intrude on them.  So yes it is free will.

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
Its not that he doesn't try to save them.  Its that they made the choice not to be saved.  If you forced someone to love you is that really love?  Or would you rather them choose to love you.  Watch the end of Bruce Almighty.  Explains free will very well.
Wrong.  You can't have free will and an all knowing god.  If he knows the outcome, then you don't have free will.  If you truly have free will, then making a decision other than that of which he knows means he isn't all knowing.
2006-12-15 07:11:54
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois
Why is it so hard to grasp?  You have free will because you are making the decisions.  You are making the choices.  THey are not made for you.  God knowing what decision your going to make doesn't affect the decision being made.

Picture this.  Sims 2.  I am god to these little peons.  Lets factor out the fact that i can make decisions for them and assume the free will function is on and i'm just observing.  The sim is sitting on the couch and i can see the bladder is low and hygiene is low.  So with free will on i know the sim is going to go to the bathroom and take a shower.  I KNOW!!!!!  this doesn't affect the fact they are making the choice to get off the couch and go to the bathroom and take a shower  b/c they need to.(this is a simple example)

Now in context God knows what we are going to do but does not influence that decision i.e. Free will. Not a hard concept here.

Last edited by Colfax (2006-12-15 07:13:32)

2006-12-15 07:13:38
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

Colfax wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

If he knows what choices individuals will make tomorrow, then there's no such thing as free will.
yes there is.  he is not making those choices and does not intrude on them.  So yes it is free will.

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

so he knows whos going to hell, but won't try to 'save' them?
Its not that he doesn't try to save them.  Its that they made the choice not to be saved.  If you forced someone to love you is that really love?  Or would you rather them choose to love you.  Watch the end of Bruce Almighty.  Explains free will very well.
Are you trying to explain free will with a Jim Carrey very bad movie?  Cmon.
2006-12-15 07:16:07
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois
Well to explain an easy concept to thick headed (set in their way)people you sometimes need to use less complex examples

Last edited by Colfax (2006-12-15 07:17:33)

2006-12-15 07:18:16
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7068|Argentina

Colfax wrote:

Why is it so hard to grasp?  You have free will because you are making the decisions.  You are making the choices.  THey are not made for you.  God knowing what decision your going to make doesn't affect the decision being made.

Picture this.  Sims 2.  I am god to these little peons.  Lets factor out the fact that i can make decisions for them and assume the free will function is on and i'm just observing.  The sim is sitting on the couch and i can see the bladder is low and hygiene is low.  So with free will on i know the sim is going to go to the bathroom and take a shower.  I KNOW!!!!!  this doesn't affect the fact they are making the choice to get off the couch and go to the bathroom and take a shower  b/c they need to.(this is a simple example)

Now in context God knows what we are going to do but does not influence that decision i.e. Free will. Not a hard concept here.
An easy concept indeed, without God involved.  The Sims have no free will.  Humans have.  That's the difference, in Sims you are God, in real life who is God?  If God knows it all and knows what choices we'll make and he lets us, that's not free will, he's playing with us like we do with Sims.
2006-12-15 07:22:39
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6935|Cherry Pie
Its works like this...  Your a hypocrite.
2006-12-15 07:26:30
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7047|Salt Lake City

Colfax wrote:

Why is it so hard to grasp?  You have free will because you are making the decisions.  You are making the choices.  THey are not made for you.  God knowing what decision your going to make doesn't affect the decision being made.

Picture this.  Sims 2.  I am god to these little peons.  Lets factor out the fact that i can make decisions for them and assume the free will function is on and i'm just observing.  The sim is sitting on the couch and i can see the bladder is low and hygiene is low.  So with free will on i know the sim is going to go to the bathroom and take a shower.  I KNOW!!!!!  this doesn't affect the fact they are making the choice to get off the couch and go to the bathroom and take a shower  b/c they need to.(this is a simple example)

Now in context God knows what we are going to do but does not influence that decision i.e. Free will. Not a hard concept here.
You obviously have a different concept of free will then.  By definition, true free will is one in which in which the outcome is not known until the decision is made.  You also seem to not understand just what all knowing means.  To be all knowing he knows what you will do from the moment your soul was created by him; technically if he were all knowing he would know what decisions you made even before your creation, essentially creating destiny, not free will.

Part of the whole problem is the extremely rigid stand that many religious people take in regard to God being all knowing and all powerful.  With such absolute terms you are bound to run into paradoxes, just like this one.

Another similar paradox to this one is that of God being all powerful.  It is said that there is nothing God cannot do.  If that is the case, then can God create something that is not within his control?  Now here is your paradox.  If God were to create something outside of his control, then he is no longer all powerful.  If he can't create something outside of his control, because that is impossible for an all powerful God, then he truly isn't all powerful because there is something he cannot do.
2006-12-15 07:28:01
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

Its works like this...  Your a hypocrite.
???

Sergeriver

They have free will if you just sit and watch them.  And i can tell what they are going to do.
2006-12-15 07:36:01
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7047|Salt Lake City

Colfax wrote:

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

Its works like this...  Your a hypocrite.
???

Sergeriver

They have free will if you just sit and watch them.  And i can tell what they are going to do.
Your example is so flawed that it isn't even funny.  First off, we are talking about humans, not some AI from within a game.  Humans think and feel.  AI is simply responding to a complex if this, then  do... type scenario.  Also, lets not forget that you don't know what will happen before it happens.  To truly be all knowing, like God, you would know about these game characters before they were created (all of them) and you would know exactly how their life would play out until you decided to completely obliterate the magnetic polarity of your computer's hard drive that constituted their existence.

To set a series of events in motion within an AI driven environment and then watch what they do, or even guess at what they will do do given the limited capabilities of the AI, is simply so far from be comparable to this conversation that it isn't even funny.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-12-15 07:36:40)

2006-12-15 07:51:39
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois
So what is the purpose of this thread since I believe one thing and you another?  The fact of the matter is that the free will definition which was defined by man is now in question.  Maybe your definition is wrong?  How do you know it's right?  Are you all knowing?  Is the person who defined it?  What if the complexity of free will and God's omniscient and omnipotent is too complex for our little human brains to comprehend?
2006-12-15 07:53:29
[RDH]Warlord
Quakecon Attendee
+17|6969|SLC, Utah, USA
Just because some people are doomed to hell does not mean that God was powerless to save them.

Sure, he knows that someone is going to murder another person.  But actually stepping in and stopping it before it happens DESTROYS free will.  I believe that movie about the future predicting police (can't remember the name, FFS!) is a pretty good example here.

God knows what we're going to do, but does nothing to prevent you from doing it in the first place.  He's not going to approve of your choice, but he's not going to stop you.  It's like a disapproving parent.  They'll be sad you want a tattoo, but they'll just sigh and let you do it.
2006-12-15 08:09:17
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7047|Salt Lake City

Colfax wrote:

So what is the purpose of this thread since I believe one thing and you another?  The fact of the matter is that the free will definition which was defined by man is now in question.  Maybe your definition is wrong?  How do you know it's right?  Are you all knowing?  Is the person who defined it?  What if the complexity of free will and God's omniscient and omnipotent is too complex for our little human brains to comprehend?
LOL, this is just so funny.  It takes me back to my philosophy classes is college.  The professor noted that ultimately most debates about religion end up in one of two ways.  Those on the religious side refuse to further discuss the matter, or try to slide by on the old, "God is beyond our understanding." argument.

1. First we talk about free will and God being all knowing.  More than one person basically laid out the logic of how having true free will and an all knowing God are not possible.

2. Then I give another example of a paradox, where God cannot truly be all powerful.  You didn't even attempt to respond to this.

3. After getting beaten over the head with logic, that your Sims game analogy simply couldn't stand up to, you now do the fall back.  In this case you didn't decide to simply not discuss the issue further, you opted for the other.  As your argument crumbles you actually attempt to call in question the definition of free will, then swing for the fences with the argument that God, and God's powers, may simply be beyond our understanding.  Funny how we are so quick to assign such absolute terms to something we are incapable of understanding.  Funny how we are so quick to do harm in the name of God, when we can't really understand him or his plan. 

Alas, your argument fit right into the nice mold that most religious discussions follow.
2006-12-15 08:21:23
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6955|United States - Illinois
Maybe i don't have time?  I am at work.  I'm not a philosophy major i took two classes.  Critical thinking and Ethics.  Give me a bit here.

Last edited by Colfax (2006-12-15 08:25:55)

 

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