BF2S Forums Palestine & Israel Discussion Thread

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

without knowing what you're really talking about Im throwing my two cents in

uniform represents what exactly it is that you do....soldier.  on the other hand you got these peice of shit terrorist who stay in civies so they could blend in with the population that isnt a combatant.  thereby winning the media war when a whole bunch of  civilians gets killed because of a couple of knuckle heads who wanted that goal in the first place so their fight could have more support.

Don't take it personal.  Do you agree with Israel policies?  Forget about the soldiers following orders.  Isn't Israel promoting terrorism with its actions?  Who are we to say this guy is a terrorist and this guy is cool?  If you were Palestinian, wouldn't you fight against your oppressors?  Would you be a terrorist? (I know you aren't, just in case, lol).

just because i look like haji huh.  but my opinion on israeli policy doesnt matter.  I hate politics and politics is the driving force behind all government.  Israeli-Heavy handedness?  perhaps.  but if you were israeli surrounded by nothing but enemies, wouldnt you be glad that your government is doing what it deems necessary to remove the threat to you rpersonal life and the lives of your loved ones.  ok some say israel should have never been formed, I disagree.  but we are in the current modern times and israel aint going nowhere.  to debate the reasoning behind the formation of israel is folly.  try convincing an israeli of the new modern generation they have no right to be there because that aint so.  Thats the land of their birth as is the United States is mine and I will do anything humanly possible to keep Americans, domestic and abroad, from dying.  Thats what i see Israel doing.  Is it effective? maybe not.  all i see is the constant circle of violence, misery, suffering and death so I guess nothing is really working.  But when you have paramilitary organizations that operate independent of the Palestinian government, fuck em...let the bodies hit the floor.  Who should the civilians blame, the terrorist ofcourse!  who do the civilians blame, the Israelis.  But if you are israeli, and lets be pragmatic,  100 pales aint worth one israeli life. if your pale, same thing goes.  who to blame, the Israeli war machine or the people that are forcing the israeli war machine to respond.

I never said Israel should leave the land.  They should share it with Palestine.  It seems a too naive thing to say, though.  I condemn both sides for the violence, but Israel isn't helping at all.  Look where Israel is in the ranking of HDI (Human Development Index), if I remember well it's 23rd, and Palestine is Bedrock.  So, Israel has the great responsibility of helping Palestinians instead of killing them everyday.  Of course, that's if you want to live in peace.  If you want to live in constant war, well then Israel is doing an excellent job.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

oh yeah, hezbohlah was far away out in fields waiting for the israeli army to meet them just like william wallace....get real.

Are you saying that they were in those schools and sewage treatment plants?

im saying these fuckers blend in with the infrastructure, firing rockets next to schools and homes.  they do this so people like you could say Israelis are evil baby killers who wipe the blood off their boots with human skin.  mission accomplished, eh?

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attack civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

Last edited by SpaceApollyon (2006-12-01 10:17:30)

SpaceApollyon wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Are you saying that they were in those schools and sewage treatment plants?

im saying these fuckers blend in with the infrastructure, firing rockets next to schools and homes.  they do this so people like you could say Israelis are evil baby killers who wipe the blood off their boots with human skin.  mission accomplished, eh?

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attacks civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

i believe fancy was saying that they do not target them on purpose

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

im saying these fuckers blend in with the infrastructure, firing rockets next to schools and homes.  they do this so people like you could say Israelis are evil baby killers who wipe the blood off their boots with human skin.  mission accomplished, eh?

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attacks civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

i believe fancy was saying that they do not target them on purpose

Yes, at least thats how I understood it.
And thats what Im replying to, by saying that they just destroyed Lebanese civilian infrastructure on purpose.

SpaceApollyon wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attacks civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

i believe fancy was saying that they do not target them on purpose

Yes, at least thats how I understood it.
And thats what Im replying to, by saying that they just destroyed Lebanese civilian infrastructure on purpose.

and this is the line we could draw in the sand where we could confidently say we disagree.

Pug wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Israel does not deliberately target large civilian crowds with bombing attacks nor target civilian structures directly

Why would you state such a thing, when in reality its clearly quite the opposite?

Israeli action in the Second Lebanon War

"During the campaign, Israel's Air Force flew more than 12,000 combat missions. The Navy fired 2,500 shells, and the Army fired over 100,000 shells [43], destroying large parts of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure. 400 miles of roads, 73 bridges and 31 targets such as Beirut International Airport, ports, water and sewage treatment plants, electrical facilities, 25 fuel stations, 900 commercial structures, up to 350 schools and two hospitals were destroyed, as well as some 15,000 homes. Some 130,000 more homes were damaged."

It doesn't say "directly targeted".

Although the roads, bridges, airport, ports, power plants, and fuel stations are military targets, and probably were directly targeted.

And the sewage plants, dont forget the sewage plants. The enemy cant fight as effectively if their toilets and showers aren't working.

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attack civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

I never said Israel doesn't attack civilian targets. I said they don't DIRECTLY target them. They are targeting Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be embedded in civilian neighborhoods. There is a big difference between collateral damage and deliberate terrorism and targeting of the civilian population. It is not a hard distinction to make and I've had to explain this 50 times over in this thread alone. Read the posts in the thread before replying. Also, this thread is about Israel and Palestine, not Lebanon.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-12-01 12:14:26)

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Why are you trying to defend terrorists? Israel targets civilians in terrorist attacks. Is that okay to you?

And here we are, back to square one. Israel targets terrorists and Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be embedded in civilian neighborhoods. You are trying to label collateral damage, an inevitable factor in any war, as terrorism. I just don't understand why you people are so intent on referring to Israel as a "terrorist state" when the Palestinian government officially sponsors terrorism and targets civilian neighborhoods. Bombing a Qassam rocket launch site is much different than intentionally launching rockets targeting civilians or suicide bombing large crowds or buses filled with civilians. Again, this collateral damage from Israeli attacks is inevitable because a conventional army is fighting an enemy that engages in asymmetrical warfare. I just don't understand how you people cannot grasp the fact that when a government embeds their military in civilian structures, they are endangering their civilians, and therefore responsible for civilian casualties. Israel does not deliberately target large civilian crowds with bombing attacks nor target civilian structures directly. It is a simple fact of war, and your extreme bias prevents you from making that distinction.

So this time, instead of just rewording my lines from "Palestine targets civilians in terrorist attacks" to "Israel targets civilians in terrorist attacks", actually address the issue I have brought forth. Are you denying that Palestine embeds its militants in civilian structures? Or do you just choose to look over that fact because it completely counters your argument? And are you denying that Palestine directly targets the Israeli civilian population? And finally, are you actually suggesting that Israel is simply targeting random civilian structures and that it has nothing to do with the fact that rocket attacks were made from these structures targeting civilian neighborhoods?

Have you even read any of the other posts?

That is not what I'm talking about, although it is an extension of it.

I am refering to 'proper' recognised Zionist terror groups. Most specifically Irgun and Lehi. If you are trying to deny they are terror groups who have conducted deliberate bombings of civilians then you are sadly mistaken. The IDF was formed from the members of these terror groups, which in my opinion makes them a terror group as well, at least as much as Hamas who, like the IDF, have some political legitimacy.

If you think Israel has not conducted traditional terrorist attacks then you are only fooling yourself. More recently all offensive actions taken by Israel have been conducted by the IDF, who are a military organisation rooted in terrorism. Their methods have evolved but are no less brutal today than they have ever been.

As for Israel specifically targeting terrorists, IDF officials have made statements that civilians have been targeted by the IDF. I can't remember the exact quotations but one of them was along the lines of 'It doesn't matter, they're only Arabs'. Civilian infrastructure has also been directly targeted by the IDF, bridges, airports and seaports have all been bombed as have power facilities nowhere near anything. The BBC have reported that the targeting of infrastructure has been very deliberate as did the British envoy sent to Israel to observe.

Here's a very brief example of a few Israeli terror attacks:

July 6  : 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab Melon market in Haifa.
July 8  : 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.
July 10: 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
July 25: 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.

That's a few weeks worth of deliberate bombings of civilians. Quite a high body count, although nothing compared to Israel's more modern bombing campaigns.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-12-01 12:45:48)

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

Im not saying that they dont blend in with the infrastructure! They do blend in with the schools and homes.

Im just replying to Fancys comment that Israel doesnt attack civilian targets, when they in fact just completed a whole campaign of destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

I never said Israel doesn't attack civilian targets. I said they don't DIRECTLY target them. They are targeting Qassam rocket launch sites which happen to be embedded in civilian neighborhoods. There is a big difference between collateral damage and deliberate terrorism and targeting of the civilian population. It is not a hard distinction to make and I've had to explain this 50 times over in this thread alone. Read the posts in the thread before replying. Also, this thread is about Israel and Palestine, not Lebanon.

Why isnt the Israel-Lebanon war relevant when talking about Israel's mo?

In a conventional war every structure that supports the enemy's society is a military target. My point here is that in the second Lebanon war - not a war between two countries and their armies - a target like a sewage plant is a civilian target. Thats why I still think that Israel has directly and on purpose targeted civilian structures.

Pug wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

In a conventional war every structure that supports the enemy's society is a military target. My point here is that in the second Lebanon war - not a war between two countries and their armies - a target like a sewage plant is a civilian target. Thats why I still think that Israel has directly and on purpose targeted civilian structures.

Yet the source says the structures were destroyed.  You have added the "directly attacked" part.

There is a difference which you deny here:
Israelis: Either have been directly attacking the civilian population, have attacked targets in civilian areas with little regard for collateral damage, or lastly, its pure collateral damage.  Good luck proving this.

Arabs: Shooting unguided rockets into cities, suicide bombings in civilian areas to maximize casualties.  Fact.

Israelis : Have NOT been directly attacking civilian POPULATION (not recently anyway, they used to when they were not in a position of power and dominance though, so it is hard to criticise their enemies for using the same tactics they used to use). They HAVE directly targeted civilian inrastructure with no regard for civilian casualties.

Your Arabs definition is a bit vague, different groups have followed different tactics.

Hezbollah : Have fired Katushya rockets into towns and at military positions. These rockets were often stored in civilian areas, but extremely rarely fired from them, as has so often been suggested. Condemn suicide bombings.

Hamas : Have sponsored suicide bombing campaigns. Fired rockets etc.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-12-01 18:37:34)

Pug wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

In a conventional war every structure that supports the enemy's society is a military target. My point here is that in the second Lebanon war - not a war between two countries and their armies - a target like a sewage plant is a civilian target. Thats why I still think that Israel has directly and on purpose targeted civilian structures.

Yet the source says the structures were destroyed.  You have added the "directly attacked" part.


There is a difference which you deny here:
Israelis: Either have been directly attacking the civilian population, have attacked targets in civilian areas with little regard for collateral damage, or lastly, its pure collateral damage.  Good luck proving this.

Arabs: Shooting unguided rockets into cities, suicide bombings in civilian areas to maximize casualties.  Fact.

Pug wrote:

It doesn't say "directly targeted".

Although the roads, bridges, airport, ports, power plants, and fuel stations are military targets, and probably were directly targeted.

I cant prove it, thats not my point. I just say how I see it. Just like you did on your previous post! They probably treated them as military targets, even though it wasnt a conventional war. And Im not talking about population!

Last edited by SpaceApollyon (2006-12-02 02:01:58)

you cant fight a conventional war when the enemy uses civilians as part of their strategy

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-12-02 08:52:11)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

you cant fight a conventional war when the enemy uses civilians as part of their strategy

That's what the Israeli media wants you to believe.  Have you seen this happening?