BF2S Forums Serious discussion on UN's role in Iraq war.

King_County_Downy wrote:

We have our hands tied behind our backs. They have no rules. That somehow makes us better than them... I never could figure that one out.

In most cases that does make us better than them, because we have more morals.  However, in a direct contest of firepower and war, morality should matter little compared to the well-being of your country and your troops.

The OP fails in more ways than I could ever possibly care to mention in a lifetime of response posts.

IRONCHEF wrote:

More morals, or more refined warfare methods?  Two very different things..and the muslims have by far more "morals" than us.

Hmmm. maybe in a biblical sense, but killing innocent people does not seem right to me. At least we have the moral sense to try and hide our dispicable actions. lol

No no no. We must sit back and wait for them to kill us first. duh.


[/sarcasm]

CameronPoe wrote:

G3|Genius wrote:

I agree that the UN has a lot of blood on their hands.

The UN has proven itself to be ineffective and useless.  Everyone knows that a UN "resolution" is a decision to pretend to care.

I don't think we should be more cruel, as OP suggests.  but I DO think that we need to start kicking ass.  I don't know how.  I am not a commander, and I am not privvy to any information that would give me any credibility for a suggestion, but I, too, am freaking tired of hearing about all the violence in Iraq.  Furthermore, I am freaking tired of the Leftist conclusion that we need to pull out because of it.

I say, NAY NAY!

we need to kick ass HARDER.

that's what I want to see.  harder ass kickin out there.

+1 for bashing the UN, by the way

I have to laugh once again. I'm not a fan of the UN but, correct me if I'm wrong, the UN has a 'no shooting under any circumstance' policy and they have 'blood on their hands' how exactly?

Again your fake christianity shines through: it's amazing how hypocritical bible thumping god-boys can be - 'we need to kick ass HARDER'.... more death and destruction FTW!

by their inaction, they have blood on their hands.

We Americans are blessed to have the military we do.  This is my belief.  I pray for our soldiers, and I thank God that we have men and women like that fighting for virtues that I cherish.

There is nothing unchristian about that.

You don't have a problem with my argument, you have a problem with the very fact that I am a Christian.  You and I argued back and forth many many times in the "For all you Jews/Christians/ w/e if you believe in God read this" thread.  I do not need your patronizing.  You know who I am, what I love, what I stand for.

You said what you said in the above quote because you loathe my Christianity and you wanted to mock me.

you know what else, while i think of it, Cameron...

judging by your sig, you seem to be an anti-semite.  Now it makes sense that you will flame me and argue that the UN has no blood on its hands.

For those who don't know much about the recent history of the UN, it has made some very poor decisions regarding israel.  This is mainly due to Annan, the secretary General, but he is not the only person in the organization with those sentiments.

War is Hell.  Let's start dishing some Hell out to these people. 

If we're going to be in a war...let's not half-ass it.  Only the good guys follow Geneva convention stuff and whatnot.

King_County_Downy wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

More morals, or more refined warfare methods?  Two very different things..and the muslims have by far more "morals" than us.

Hmmm. maybe in a biblical sense, but killing innocent people does not seem right to me. At least we have the moral sense to try and hide our dispicable actions. lol

Here's the way i see it, its like an endless chain of the blame game

U.S. Soldier kills an Iraqi for a good reason (Media hides the reason and jumps all over it and makes him the bad guy) - If he does not kill the Iraqi, he winds up dead- everyone blames bush for having soldiers in there so long- bush has many advisers telling him he needs to finish the job hes almost there- he follows his cabinet and everyone calls him dumb.


I don't know, could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure this is how most stuff goes today.

^^^I'm with him on this one.  (edit--by the time i posted this another guy posted.  the ^^^ refers to Hurly)

+1 for a fair analysis

Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-11-29 19:01:32)

Hmmmmmmm I dunno, maybe if the US had actually listened to the UN instead of just invading Iraq themselves, maybe the scenario would be different. So please stop trying to blame the UN for the deaths of US soldiers, the responsibility lands square at the Feet of Bush and none else.  Hey but of course, sure, it's not americas fault it's the fault of the UN, it's everyone's elses fault except America - thanks for giving me a laugh this morning..

Onionpaste wrote:

I was having this conversation with my dad the other day, and some interesting points were brought up.  We have Iraqi's blowing our troops up, killing them, kidnapping them, etc.  And we're just taking it.  Why?  Why are we allowing guerrilla terrorists / insurgents to kill OUR troops, OUR people, friends, peers, etc.  Above all, why are we putting another country over the US?

What could we have done differently that might have shifted the "war" into our favor?  I think I know the answer.  It's the UN that caused this.  The UN and their "rules" and "regulations" and "security counsel."  All they are really doing with that is getting US troops killed.  Why?  Allow me to explain.

When we invaded Iraq, we had the UN breathing down our necks.  We invaded Baghdad, captured Saddam after a while, but still we were getting blown up.  Why is this?  How do the insurgents suddenly have the ability to kill us and blow us up.  We, the United States of America, probably have one of the strongest armies in the world.  Why are we letting a bunch of punk Iraqis push us around?

We're letting them push us around because they think we're weak.  And, in a sense, we are.  WWI:  We won.  WWII: We won.  Shortly after WWII, UN was established.  We stopped winning so well afterwards.  The last military action I can think of that we had a reasonable success with, completing our main objective, was the first Gulf War. 

The reason we've stopped winning wars is because of the UN.  If you think about it, all that the terrorists and insurgents listen to is force.  If we try to reason with them, they bomb us.  If we ignore them, they bomb us.  If we wanted to have some sort of margin of success in the War in Iraq, we had to be brutal.  I don't believe that what I'm about to say is morally right, or a good thing to do, but it is necessary.  We cannot hold another country above our own, when it is OUR people getting killed by THEM.  We needed to get more violent.  If it meant hanging bodies up in the streets to show the insurgents that we mean business, that we're not just a bunch of pussies that came to play carebears with their AK-47's. 

All the insurgents understand is violence.  They don't listen to peace, or negotiations.  They get what they want or die trying, in most cases.  They're pushing us and we're falling over.  When they push, we need to shoot back, and, again, I don't think this is the best way to do things with most countries, if necessary, BLOW THEIR F**KING HEADS OFF.  Because they will answer to nothing less. 

Most of the US casualties can probably be linked to the UN and their carebear policies.  In my opinion, if the insurgents are breaking them, we should be able to break them too so that we don't suffer casualties or deaths just because of a few rules.  They are causing more harm to the US and our courageous troops fighting in Iraq than they are saving innocent lives. 

Just my two cents.  Discuss.

Others have tried this tactic




You think anyone within earshot of sanity wants to join the list?

CameronPoe wrote:

G3|Genius wrote:

you know what else, while i think of it, Cameron...

judging by your sig, you seem to be an anti-semite.  Now it makes sense that you will flame me and argue that the UN has no blood on its hands.

For those who don't know much about the recent history of the UN, it has made some very poor decisions regarding israel.  This is mainly due to Annan, the secretary General, but he is not the only person in the organization with those sentiments.

Appreciate the apology but I have two points:

1) Being anti-Israeli/pro-Palestine does not equal anti-semitism, I resent that comment and have elaborated on the issue many times on this forum.

2) I respect everyones right to believe in whatever religion or ethos they want as long as it brings no harm to anyone else. What I don't respect is hypocrisy. I was a christian once too you know. Nowhere does Christ preach the virtues/merits of war, death or destruction. Christianity and war are incompatible in the strictest sense. "Turn the other cheek". "Forgive your enemy". It's hypocrisy I don't like not people's right to believe in what they want.

Thank you for accepting my apology.

I have trouble understanding how sympathizing with people who want the destruction of Jews is not anti-semetical, but that is not the point of this response.

I do not think that praying for our military and thanking God that we have such a strong military to support is us a bad thing.

I have 2 thoughts about the military:

Firstly, in my opinion, the United States has a very healthy Christian heritage.  And the beauty of it all is Christians and non-Christians can be friends, and can engage in healthy dialogue as you and I do.  We have these things guarenteed to us by our constitution, which was won by war and which has been defended by war. 

This argument is one of those "lesser of two evils" arguments.  Of course there is subjectivity in the argument.  I feel that we who are "endowed by our creator" certain rights ought to defend our freedoms through a military if necessary.

Love of country is a good thing.  Good countries, as with all truly GOOD things, are hated by evil, and evil seeks to destroy while good seeks to be good.  In this flawed world, we have no choice but to defend ourselves.  While pointless violence is wrong, and while instigating war is horrible...I think we ought to defend ourselves when threatened.

[EDIT:] I remember my second thought.  Christianity is based on, among other things, love.  Christ called us to love our enemies, and told us how to do it (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, etc.).  Christ set an example by doing this, and he eventually died for it.  And if that were the end of the story it would be a pretty lame story and no one would ever have said another thing about "love your enemies" because they'd be saying "remember the last dude who said that, and look what happened to that clown".  It was his resurrection that gives his teaching credibility.

Now, how does this apply to us today, not as individuals, but as nations at war?  If the USA, or the UK, or any nation, were to simply say to their enemies, "we love you, cumbaya, come eat our food at our table" we'd be annihilated.  Love knows mercy.  Evil knows now mercy.

So to get to your argument that as a Christian I should not thank God for our military, I argue that to NOT thank God would be folly.  Furthermore, I argue that to joint the military is not contrary to Christianity.  Remember, "there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend."  Every soldier in our military is a volunteer, and they are willing to put their life in harm's way and perhaps even lay down their lives to protect me.  Without them, where would I be?  As a soldier, I would be one of hundreds of thousands of people who would be willing to take a bullet to protect my countrymen back home.

I find that to be special.

NOW.

I know that not all men and women in uniform really give a shit about me, and some people just love to shoot guns and do whatever.  I'm not trying to start an argument about that.  I am simply trying to say that I see no conflict of interest in my statements that started this discussion.

[/edit]

Ultimately, I think that in a world where evil men want to destroy freedom and other Christian virtues we need to be willing to fight and destroy the evil that wishes to destroy us.

When I see the suicide bombers in Iraq, I see evil.  What they are doing is EVIL.  it is destruction and carnage.  I think that it would be better to stay and fight, to rout evil like it's never been routed before, and to leave Iraq the best nation in the region.

Thank you for the opportunity for me to express my opinion on this

G3|Genius

Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-11-30 18:15:13)