BF2S Forums My honest, no BS opinion of the racial situation in the US

Some of the authors in this thread paint with a very broad brush. "In world history those who have helped to build the same culture are not necessarily of one race, and those of the same race have not all participated in one culture."

lowing wrote:

Ummmm, Most of the white people you are referring to came to America with little or nothing in their pockets, hardly coddled. Some came as indentured servants themselves. These people came here to BUILD their own American dream. Which means they pulled their pants up from off of their fuckin' asses and went to work and build it, without blaming everyone else for  their failures.

Perhaps whites do not have trends and traditions solely our own, because we put being American first and not AFRICAN American, or MEXICAN American. While you try and figure out YOUR heritage from 200 years ago and  figure out how much "whitey" owes you for being black, the rest of us are building our own personal dreams. GO to work, give it a try. Oh but wait, any successful black person in America is viewed as a "sell out" to whitey by the black community. Oh well I guess just keep plugging away at your fashion trends, for whitey to adopt and figuring out ways to get everything for nothing. Hence the race  ( credit ) card .

lowing wrote:

there is white trash as well, not every white person is a success. The common denominator is, both races who do not succeed in some measure, is personal choices, and irresponsibility not "whitey", keeping ya down. It is YOU keeping YOU down.

I gauge people on their merit not their race. I respect everyone that builds their dreams regardless of race, and wouldn't piss on ANYONE that blames EVERYONE for their failures.

...my exhaustive reply...

there you go with your fairy-tale arbitrary belief in the internal locus of control leveling all other worldly factors. lol, "YOU keeping YOU down," how does one hog tie themself and drag themself behind a pickup truck? how does one invade their own country and force a foreign system of trade on themself? this is a profoundly simplistic way of interpreting events and you should move past it.

okay, so if everyone is the champion of their own destiny and could take a big slice of the pie if they tried (via the american dream) then who comes up empty handed when pretty much everyone gives a significant effort? And particularly, who loses when certain tiny (predominantly white, coincidentally) fragments of the world population stake claim to nearly 25% of earth's resources? a lot of hard-working people start losing when the system is controlled that way. LOL. I suppose you think the present distribution of wealth was just built on hard work. I'm sure J.P. Morgan and Andrew Carnegie worked a billion times harder than everyone else! its a simple fact that a person's ability to achieve is as much a function of their own personal effort as it is environmental constraints, ie., social class, geography, family, education, politics, connections, institutional racism, etc.

if you really want to blame individuals and hold everybody accountable for their personal effect on the world and the costs they incur to others, then as much as you denigrate those that fail to achieve, like "white trash" you might also point a finger at the several rich, predominantly white, institutions and social classes which profit from the racist and class-discriminatory conflicts that have shaped world trade. the richest white people have as much of a right to the "claims" and "assets" from century-old titles, as the average african-american or native-american has the right to 'steal' them back in just retribution. isnt it ironic how minorities sometimes use the white man's gun when they forcibly take things back?

its just a hilarious double standard that all historical conquests like slavery must be forgiven, and forgotten about, and yet nobody wants to forget about the reason why their white family has money or a well paying job. we wouldn't have the wealth we do today in white America without having taken it as Europeans throughout hundreds of years of imperialism and colonialism while structuring the hijacked system of world trade that persists today. if you are going to say that our history is legitimate and that our country owns the land in the United States, then you also have to admit the reverse statement, that the people we displaced and enslaved were robbed and have as much of a right to forcibly reclaim their natural wealth as we do to hold its title in 2008. the system of world trade is actually designed to devalue the labor of the rest of the world so that we can (mostly the corporate oligarchy), with little effort, take much more than we contribute. all the tiny countries of the world didn't just choose to have their weak currencies, many of them were forced into their place in the world economy by first invading them, and then "freeing" them (ie, africa) in the 1900's with an interchangeable currency and enough debt to the white banking cabal that their people could never get as much for a day of work as the average white boy in america or western europe. and now when a white person in america makes $30 an hour as a plumber, they think to themself, "hard work pays off" without realizing that in much of the world, there isnt even enough money to create stable demand for useful specialists like plumbers, despite the fact that the land and people might be quite productive. if they could trade the wealth of their labor for as much as the average american, then the people wouldnt be impoverished and we wouldnt find them looking for work, or god forbid, on welfare, in american cities. a person can work all day farming enough food for hundreds of people and then not take enough money to buy food for their family. people are robbed like this every day because its institutional poverty and its history happens to be quite racist.

i dont think its in any way practical to try to track down who owns what in a legal-historical sense--to, in effect, redistribute wealth based on past events, not least because there is no unbiased authority in this enterprise. but until our society has some consciousness about what crimes were committed in the past, then we are pretty much doomed to perpetuate the status quo in its present form, and always live on a planet dominated by tiny groups of individuals that take billions of times more wealth from society than they contribute. don't take my post as a flame, just realize that your "personal responsibility" argument is incomplete without considering why the "american dream" actually functions the way it does. u mentioned indentured servitude, and its true, white people have also lived as slaves, much like the factory workers in the third world today. as a culture, we need to learn to recognize when labor is devalued and when people are dehumanized, regardless of their race, and we need to oppose this kind of treatment on a moral basis and on the basis that we would not want to be cheated the same way. i know white people are diverse in their access to wealth like all people, but in a statistical sense, they get a lot more wealth per unit of labor because of the organization of world trade and politics which were all forced on the world down the barrel of a gun.

that some people of all races are lazy and a drain on others is true. true to the extent that there is no reason to even view it racially. to characterize races in such a way is simply racist. yet its also racist to be "colorblind" and pretend that racism has nothing to do with the present state of the world, as if everybody is responsible for the slaver, exploitative factory, or creditor that owns them. and lowing this post isn't soley directed at you, its just my response to the thread.

Last edited by Marinejuana (2008-01-09 10:25:21)

oug wrote:

"American life".

HA!




^{I too considered taking on the entire post but it seems sooo hopeless...}

Well youre Greek right, tell us all how you all hate Turks and Albanians and the fact that I saw 2 black men being verbally abused in Athens. Unfortunatley racism is alive and well everywhere.

Last edited by NantanCochise (2008-01-09 13:04:29)

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

The two most prevelant examples of current racism in the World are the killings between tribes in Kenya and the long standing war between Shi'ite and Sunni Muslims in Iraq. 

Let's not assume all racism is based on skin colour.....

I wouldnt call it racism in Iraq.  Its tribalism. Although, I can see why you might say that

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

The two most prevelant examples of current racism in the World are the killings between tribes in Kenya and the long standing war between Shi'ite and Sunni Muslims in Iraq. 

Let's not assume all racism is based on skin colour.....

I wouldnt call it racism in Iraq.  Its tribalism. Although, I can see why you might say that

Is it because I know the meaning of the word "race"?

dictionary.com wrote:

race2     
–noun
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity. 
2. a population so related. 
3. Anthropology. a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use. 
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups. 
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans. 
4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race. 
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race. 
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race. 
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies. 
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes. 
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race. 
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine. 
–adjective 11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind.

Im not used to categorizing people by the traits they were born with.  To me, the idea of race is fucking stupid.   Just used to elevate one level of society above another.  btw, are you always such an asshole?





For the future, Ill make sure to count Job Title as a race as well, like you say.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-01-09 13:53:47)

GunSlinger, from my experience, yes. But Im sure many will call me the same;)

Marinejuana wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ummmm, Most of the white people you are referring to came to America with little or nothing in their pockets, hardly coddled. Some came as indentured servants themselves. These people came here to BUILD their own American dream. Which means they pulled their pants up from off of their fuckin' asses and went to work and build it, without blaming everyone else for  their failures.

Perhaps whites do not have trends and traditions solely our own, because we put being American first and not AFRICAN American, or MEXICAN American. While you try and figure out YOUR heritage from 200 years ago and  figure out how much "whitey" owes you for being black, the rest of us are building our own personal dreams. GO to work, give it a try. Oh but wait, any successful black person in America is viewed as a "sell out" to whitey by the black community. Oh well I guess just keep plugging away at your fashion trends, for whitey to adopt and figuring out ways to get everything for nothing. Hence the race  ( credit ) card .

lowing wrote:

there is white trash as well, not every white person is a success. The common denominator is, both races who do not succeed in some measure, is personal choices, and irresponsibility not "whitey", keeping ya down. It is YOU keeping YOU down.

I gauge people on their merit not their race. I respect everyone that builds their dreams regardless of race, and wouldn't piss on ANYONE that blames EVERYONE for their failures.

...my exhaustive reply...

there you go with your fairy-tale arbitrary belief in the internal locus of control leveling all other worldly factors. lol, "YOU keeping YOU down," how does one hog tie themself and drag themself behind a pickup truck? how does one invade their own country and force a foreign system of trade on themself? this is a profoundly simplistic way of interpreting events and you should move past it.

okay, so if everyone is the champion of their own destiny and could take a big slice of the pie if they tried (via the american dream) then who comes up empty handed when pretty much everyone gives a significant effort? And particularly, who loses when certain tiny (predominantly white, coincidentally) fragments of the world population stake claim to nearly 25% of earth's resources? a lot of hard-working people start losing when the system is controlled that way. LOL. I suppose you think the present distribution of wealth was just built on hard work. I'm sure J.P. Morgan and Andrew Carnegie worked a billion times harder than everyone else! its a simple fact that a person's ability to achieve is as much a function of their own personal effort as it is environmental constraints, ie., social class, geography, family, education, politics, connections, institutional racism, etc.

if you really want to blame individuals and hold everybody accountable for their personal effect on the world and the costs they incur to others, then as much as you denigrate those that fail to achieve, like "white trash" you might also point a finger at the several rich, predominantly white, institutions and social classes which profit from the racist and class-discriminatory conflicts that have shaped world trade. the richest white people have as much of a right to the "claims" and "assets" from century-old titles, as the average african-american or native-american has the right to 'steal' them back in just retribution. isnt it ironic how minorities sometimes use the white man's gun when they forcibly take things back?

its just a hilarious double standard that all historical conquests like slavery must be forgiven, and forgotten about, and yet nobody wants to forget about the reason why their white family has money or a well paying job. we wouldn't have the wealth we do today in white America without having taken it as Europeans throughout hundreds of years of imperialism and colonialism while structuring the hijacked system of world trade that persists today. if you are going to say that our history is legitimate and that our country owns the land in the United States, then you also have to admit the reverse statement, that the people we displaced and enslaved were robbed and have as much of a right to forcibly reclaim their natural wealth as we do to hold its title in 2008. the system of world trade is actually designed to devalue the labor of the rest of the world so that we can (mostly the corporate oligarchy), with little effort, take much more than we contribute. all the tiny countries of the world didn't just choose to have their weak currencies, many of them were forced into their place in the world economy by first invading them, and then "freeing" them (ie, africa) in the 1900's with an interchangeable currency and enough debt to the white banking cabal that their people could never get as much for a day of work as the average white boy in america or western europe. and now when a white person in america makes $30 an hour as a plumber, they think to themself, "hard work pays off" without realizing that in much of the world, there isnt even enough money to create stable demand for useful specialists like plumbers, despite the fact that the land and people might be quite productive. if they could trade the wealth of their labor for as much as the average american, then the people wouldnt be impoverished and we wouldnt find them looking for work, or god forbid, on welfare, in american cities. a person can work all day farming enough food for hundreds of people and then not take enough money to buy food for their family. people are robbed like this every day because its institutional poverty and its history happens to be quite racist.

i dont think its in any way practical to try to track down who owns what in a legal-historical sense--to, in effect, redistribute wealth based on past events, not least because there is no unbiased authority in this enterprise. but until our society has some consciousness about what crimes were committed in the past, then we are pretty much doomed to perpetuate the status quo in its present form, and always live on a planet dominated by tiny groups of individuals that take billions of times more wealth from society than they contribute. don't take my post as a flame, just realize that your "personal responsibility" argument is incomplete without considering why the "american dream" actually functions the way it does. u mentioned indentured servitude, and its true, white people have also lived as slaves, much like the factory workers in the third world today. as a culture, we need to learn to recognize when labor is devalued and when people are dehumanized, regardless of their race, and we need to oppose this kind of treatment on a moral basis and on the basis that we would not want to be cheated the same way. i know white people are diverse in their access to wealth like all people, but in a statistical sense, they get a lot more wealth per unit of labor because of the organization of world trade and politics which were all forced on the world down the barrel of a gun.

that some people of all races are lazy and a drain on others is true. true to the extent that there is no reason to even view it racially. to characterize races in such a way is simply racist. yet its also racist to be "colorblind" and pretend that racism has nothing to do with the present state of the world, as if everybody is responsible for the slaver, exploitative factory, or creditor that owns them. and lowing this post isn't soley directed at you, its just my response to the thread.

I agree with what you have said, speaking for the people that have LIVED it. Now, a black person 30 years old in America has no claim to retribution for shit that is 200 years old. EVERY American, regardless of our countries past, has the right and freedom and resources available to accomplish whatever American dream they have. In 2008, there are no more excuses for failure. I will not accept that a black person can not catch a break because his great great great great grandfather was a slave in 1792. Tell it to Cosby Oprah Obama etc...... all sell outs for being successful

lowing wrote:

I agree with what you have said, speaking for the people that have LIVED it. Now, a black person 30 years old in America has no claim to retribution for shit that is 200 years old. EVERY American, regardless of our countries past, has the right and freedom and resources available to accomplish whatever American dream they have. In 2008, there are no more excuses for failure. I will not accept that a black person can not catch a break because his great great great great grandfather was a slave in 1792. Tell it to Cosby Oprah Obama etc...... all sell outs for being successful

"a black person 30 years old in America has no claim to retribution for shit that is 200 years old" so by this logic, most of the worlds corporate land owners cant really claim ownership to things that were staked 200 years ago by their fathers, because these CEOs today didnt really "live it." why do u think its okay for wealth to be passed on generationally, but it is not okay for a debt, or the retribution for a crime, to be passed on generationally? its a completely illogical double standard. so while you may not want to admit that there is a debt to be repaid, people record history, and u cant expect them to interpret it in the same biased and class-discriminatory way that you do.

by perpetuating the myth that the world is full of poor, lazy, freeloaders, you actually legitimize and create a fictional rationale for the sickening disparity of wealth in the world. the figure is something like 2% of our country owns 25% of the world. obviously the only freeloaders that u should be calling out are the corporate elite that claim to own everything, but instead post after post, you denigrate the poor and the "minorities" as if the world just needs the blue collar to work a bit harder. you may think that "white trash" or some thugged-out black people are the ultimate drain on the worlds wealth, but in actuality, our corporate elite takes infinitely more from all of us than any of these underprivileged classes.

the fact that you can name 5 or even a hundred rich and powerful black people has no bearing whatsoever on the facts regarding world wealth distribution and its historically racist conception. Thats no different from defending the morality of a slave owner on the basis that his slaves managed to escape. for every Oprah Winfrey you have a million malnourished kids with access to almost none of our societal wealth. would you have defended the nazis on the basis that there were girls like Anne Frank that were protected? i have no idea why you think the rare exception should make up for the rule.

Last edited by Marinejuana (2008-01-09 15:46:22)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Now apply the same energy in picking apart the arguments for the other races.

This was really my point, white people aren't nearly as bad as the pseudo-facts I posted here, as blacks and hispanics aren't all as bad as what was posted in the OP. Not having any perspective to be able to talk about your own race in the same fashion as you talk about others is where real racism is.

Disagree........... do not think for one second that I can not or will not stand on my soap box and spout my opinions about white trash.

I didn't say you couldn't or wouldn't, I said you didn't.

The reason this is, is because even the white trash are not blaming "the man" for being white trash.

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lowing wrote:

Disagree........... do not think for one second that I can not or will not stand on my soap box and spout my opinions about white trash.

I didn't say you couldn't or wouldn't, I said you didn't.

The reason this is, is because even the white trash are not blaming "the man" for being white trash.

Bullshit. Everyone wants to pin the blame on someone, anyone other than themselves.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I didn't say you couldn't or wouldn't, I said you didn't.

The reason this is, is because even the white trash are not blaming "the man" for being white trash.

Bullshit. Everyone wants to pin the blame on someone, anyone other than themselves.

Really, I can cite Jesse, Sharpton etc. for the spokesman for black oppression who is speaking for the white trash against "the man"? Try doing it without GOGGLE, I did.

Remember you can not use Democrat politicians becaue believe it or not, THEY are "the man" as well. Rich white people getting richer "on the backs of the poor"

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Bullshit. Everyone wants to pin the blame on someone, anyone other than themselves.

Really, I can cite Jesse, Sharpton etc. for the spokesman for black oppression who is speaking for the white trash against "the man"? Try doing it without GOGGLE, I did.

Remember you can not use Democrat politicians becaue believe it or not, THEY are "the man" as well. Rich white people getting richer "on the backs of the poor"

You don't think a single white person has ever blamed the government for their shortfalls?

I never said that, individually absolutely, I am talking about as a society. I have cited my proof. Cite yours, without GOGGLE. Who is the oppressed white trash spokesmen?

lowing wrote:

The inheritants of "old money" owe no one anything. 200 years from now are you going to apply YOUR logic that Bill Gates' family "OWES" society for what he has built?

what did bill gates steal? who did he enslave? make ur point if u want, but it sounds like an irrelevant question. bottom line, u think that history is a legitimate rationale for claiming ownership of assets for the rich and powerful but you do not extend this right to claim ownership to other people like the descendants of slaves. its a double standard, you still fail to explain why you feel its acceptable.

lowing wrote:

Sorry, the excuses are long dead, and no one that has money owes an explaination and an apology for having it to ANYONE. You were not a slave, you are JUST as free as any other person born in this country, if you choose to exercise your freedom by bitching, whinning and complaining instead of getting proactive in YOUR OWN FUCKING LIFE, then tough shit

okay so lets pose a scenario, black guy jacks slave owner's son for a lifetime worth of wages. now the black guy is rich. now do you stand by your statement that "no one that has money owes an explanation and an apology for having it to ANYONE" now that the person in question is a black person that forcibly took a lifes worth of labor from a rich white person? notice how you arent actually making rational points that can be applied to other scenarios? your arguments arent really going any further than being blatant identifications of your personal opinions and biases about people you dont know a thing about. i suggest you learn a little bit about the way the global economy functions before you spout on and on about how everything magically comes down to reaping what you sow. this isnt remotely true. its about as crazy as claiming the earth is the center of the universe, or better yet, that YOU are the center of the universe.

lowing wrote:

stay the course and show "whitey" you mean business by wearing your fucking clothes 10 sizes too big and looking like a complete dipshit. You will continue to be left behind and continue to wonder why.

okay thats just some sloppy racism.

lowing wrote:

By the way, I am an average middle class citizen as well, I am not rich and I do not think the rich owe me a damn thing. How bout you?

im an average citizen such as yourself. it would be in your best interests to protect the middle and working class, rather than the elite which offers you nothing and will tax you your entire life far beyond anything devised for a welfare program in history. just accept it and move on. quit bitching about people that already have it bad enough.

Last edited by Marinejuana (2008-01-09 16:53:38)