ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Ever wonder why the Clintons have generated so much hatred?

Of all the issues that come to mind, all are grossly out-weighed by the murderous acts of the federal government under his watch.

This Thursday marks the anniversary of the grossed act of evil the U.S. committed against its own people since they gave blankets infested with small pox ridden fleas to the natives.
Few Americans realize that on February 28, 1993 when Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ("BATF") agents in National Guard helicopters zoomed in on the Branch Davidians' church and home, Mount Carmel Center, they did so with guns blazing, like Americans raiding a Vietnamese village in that far off war. Davidians claim such firing killed four people. David Koresh's unarmed father-in-law, who stood with him at the front door while the unarmed Koresh begged BATF agents to back off, was mortally wounded by gunfire from BATF agents on the ground. These agents shot wildly and threw grenades at the building for more than an hour, even as Davidians called "911" to beg for a ceasefire. BATF snipers later assassinated one Davidian as he tried to reenter Mount Carmel to join his family.

In his conversation with a "911" operator soon after the raid Koresh stated: "You need to call the President of the United States and explain to him what you have done. You've ruined this country. You've ruined the nation. This is a democracy, supposedly, a republic." (Koresh had invited BATF agents to inspect his weapons six months before and provided them with full documentation.) Both Koresh and BATF agents knew that if Mount Carmel, whose bullet ridden roofs and walls contained evidence of the vicious and illegal helicopter attack, was left standing, the Davidians probably would be acquitted of murder of federal agents by a sympathetic jury. In fact, survivors were acquitted of all murder charges! Even worse, BATF agents could face prosecution and imprisonment for negligent or intentional homicide in the deaths of the unarmed Davidians.
Now before you go calling names or saying they deserved it, please watch the video.

There are procedures in America for dealing with law breakers. The butchery perpetuated by the U.S. Army, FBI and ATF are without comparison. The Oklahoma City bombing was an answer to the crimes. It shows what may happen when the feds blatantly violate the law.

The government knew McVeighs words were the kind of words that inspire revolution. Normally federal executions take decades to perform. Was it that his " crime " was so heinous, or that they were afraid he would keep talking and inspire people. It seems a little odd that he was executed so quickly.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0df_1172380851&p=1


Hillary carries this baggage too.
I am incapable of forgiveness in this act of war against the American people.

My dad talked me out of going to Mount Carmel to protest. I had made up my mind to go when the agents set the building on fire and began machine gunning the people fleeing. They murdered 80 people, including about two dozen children.  There is no other way to construe the evidence unless you are blind.

There hopefully is a special place in Hell reserved for everyone involved.

https://i14.tinypic.com/2n99jwk.jpg

Last edited by ATG (2007-04-15 10:19:03)

Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6356
Sad, unnecessary tragedy, glossed over by the media because it involved gun rights and the clintons. It sat well with most Americans because like the Arabs " they weren't like us "
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
This should be a big deal to the American people.

It makes me sad that it is not.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
We prosecute Border Patrol agents doing their job, but we ignore this kind of murderous bs.  Simply appalling.
san4
The Mas
+311|6690|NYC, a place to live

ATG wrote:

This should be a big deal to the American people.

It makes me sad that it is not.
I think it isn't such a big deal to the American people because it was so unusual. Few people think that sort of brutal assault has become routine. Has there been anything like it before or since?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
Ruby Ridge. 

http://www.stormfront.org/ruby.htm

13 year old Sammy Weaver shot in the back.  Randy Weaver shot in the back by a sniper.  Vicki Weaver, HOLDING A BABY, shot in the back by a sniper.  They were all gunned down before receiving ANY WARNING OR DEMAND TO SURRENDER.  Sounds like murder to me.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-04-15 12:18:09)

CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6691|Fort Lewis WA
.......
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command

CannonFodder11b wrote:

.......
Does that imply some sort of meaning, or are you a spam cannon?



Stingray24 wrote:

Ruby Ridge. 

http://www.stormfront.org/ruby.htm

13 year old Sammy Weaver shot in the back.  Randy Weaver shot in the back by a sniper.  Vicki Weaver, HOLDING A BABY, shot in the back by a sniper.  They were all gunned down before receiving ANY WARNING OR DEMAND TO SURRENDER.  Sounds like murder to me.
There was also this incident; 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h … A96E948260

obviously a more justified siege.

John Singer is was my fathers second cousin, btw.

http://www.onlineutah.com/historysinger.shtml

I've been to " Short Crick " aka Colorado City many times.

On the morning of 18 January 1979 Singer was confronted outside his home by Utah law enforcement officers. His home was surrounded and he was told to surrender his weapon. Singer pointed a pistol at the officers and the officers responded killing Singer with multiple gunshot wounds. His wife Vickie was taken to jail and his children were placed in shelter homes. John Singer was buried in the Marion cemetery on 22 January 1979.
oh btw, they shot him and threw him into the back of a pickup truck where he bleed to death on the 30 mountain road drive to the hospital.

Last edited by ATG (2007-04-15 12:37:23)

CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6691|Fort Lewis WA
I was about 12 or 13 i think when this happend, didnt really care then, and im in my own world of shit now to really care.  But thats the problem nowdays, no one really cares unless it directly effects them.
I dont think there was a great government cover up involved I think as always the whole story wasnt released, theres more to it then cowboy hat wearing, flag waving feds deciding to kick some texans asses.
People will probably waste entire lives trying to uncover the truth that obviously cannot be told because last time I checked you cannot get a dead person to fill out a sworn statement.

Last edited by CannonFodder11b (2007-04-15 12:58:17)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command

CannonFodder11b wrote:

I was about 12 or 13 i think when this happend, didnt really care then, and im in my own world of shit now to really care.  But thats the problem nowdays, no one really cares unless it directly effects them.
I dont think there was a great government cover up involved I think as always the whole story wasnt released, theres more to it then cowboy hat wearing, flag waving feds deciding to kick some texans asses.
People will probably waste entore lives trying to uncover the truth that obviously cannot be told because last time I checked you cannot get a dead person to fill out a sworn statement.
Watch the video.
They didn't kill them all.
CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6691|Fort Lewis WA

ATG wrote:

CannonFodder11b wrote:

I was about 12 or 13 i think when this happend, didnt really care then, and im in my own world of shit now to really care.  But thats the problem nowdays, no one really cares unless it directly effects them.
I dont think there was a great government cover up involved I think as always the whole story wasnt released, theres more to it then cowboy hat wearing, flag waving feds deciding to kick some texans asses.
People will probably waste entore lives trying to uncover the truth that obviously cannot be told because last time I checked you cannot get a dead person to fill out a sworn statement.
Watch the video.
They didn't kill them all.
But seriously who's going to believe survivors of a "cult" claiming the g-men killed innocents for shits and giggles.
I do recall it wasnt a one day thing, IF I remember it was several days of the Feds camped out trying to get them to come out and surrender and several Pop shots at the feds.
Either way theres more to the story and no one will ever know truely what happend.

Any grassy gnoll theories? Or maybe it was a Branch Dividian "Magic Bullet" fired from a book Suppository
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command

CannonFodder11b wrote:

ATG wrote:

CannonFodder11b wrote:

I was about 12 or 13 i think when this happend, didnt really care then, and im in my own world of shit now to really care.  But thats the problem nowdays, no one really cares unless it directly effects them.
I dont think there was a great government cover up involved I think as always the whole story wasnt released, theres more to it then cowboy hat wearing, flag waving feds deciding to kick some texans asses.
People will probably waste entore lives trying to uncover the truth that obviously cannot be told because last time I checked you cannot get a dead person to fill out a sworn statement.
Watch the video.
They didn't kill them all.
But seriously who's going to believe survivors of a "cult" claiming the g-men killed innocents for shits and giggles.
I do recall it wasnt a one day thing, IF I remember it was several days of the Feds camped out trying to get them to come out and surrender and several Pop shots at the feds.
Either way theres more to the story and no one will ever know truely what happend.

Any grassy gnoll theories? Or maybe it was a Branch Dividian "Magic Bullet" fired from a book Suppository
Watch the fucking video.
It shows footage taken by the government dissected by a film expert .
Its their own fucking footage and it's damning .

This is a serious issue to me.

Last edited by ATG (2007-04-15 13:10:43)

Dirrty_Bird
Dirtier than thou
+5|6742|Vermont

ATG wrote:

This should be a big deal to the American people.

It makes me sad that it is not.
Is it lonely up there on your high horse?
CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|6691|Fort Lewis WA

ATG wrote:

CannonFodder11b wrote:

ATG wrote:


Watch the video.
They didn't kill them all.
But seriously who's going to believe survivors of a "cult" claiming the g-men killed innocents for shits and giggles.
I do recall it wasnt a one day thing, IF I remember it was several days of the Feds camped out trying to get them to come out and surrender and several Pop shots at the feds.
Either way theres more to the story and no one will ever know truely what happend.

Any grassy gnoll theories? Or maybe it was a Branch Dividian "Magic Bullet" fired from a book Suppository
Watch the fucking video.
It shows footage taken by the government dissected by a film expert .
Its their own fucking footage and it's damning .

This is a serious issue to me.
Hey ATG your a cool guy and all, but my connection doesn't allow me to "watch the fucking video", seriously man the fuck down.  If the Feds did attack unprovoked, then its not the first time its been known to do something like that.  And I can garrentee its not going to be the last.  No country is perfect, every country has blood on they're hands.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6375|Kyiv, Ukraine
If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government.  If Bush does it to little brown people across the globe and disappears some raghead sympathizers here in the states, then everything is peachy keen and business as usual.  Forgive me if I choose to be sympathetic to both under humanist principles rather than picking and choosing my outrages based on race or religion of the victims.  Yes, that means that this "conspiracy theory" is every bit as real to me as the "neo-con shadow government" currently doing far worse things to far more people.

Appointment of Janet Reno was definitely one of Clinton's dumber moves in an otherwise decent career.  She had a way of using a hammer and chainsaw constantly where some honey and a fly-swatter would have been far more appropriate.  Ironically, she would have fit right in on Abu Gonzo's staff had she come of age in a slightly later era. 

Even more ironically, when the USA PATRIOTS Act came about, advocating even more ham-handed justice against the American people, those same people shouting "Ruby Ridge!" suddenly turn very pro-Bushie.  Who the FUCK do you think these new domestic surveillence programs and millions of dollars in new law enforcement jobs are going to be turned on, as well as the 2 million more prison cell rooms (oh, you missed that part...).  I'll give you a hint...there aren't but maybe 20 arab terrorists hanging out here in the USA if that.  2 million new jail cells - 20 arab terrorists = a bunch of dumbshits trying to figure out what the hell happened while they were giving each other high fives after blasting a photo of Osama at their local rifle range.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6744|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
watched a very interesting documentary about this on C4 a few months ago. The federal agents fucked up big time - end of story.  They were totally dependant on the element of surprise for the operation to be a sucess. Even though they released an agent, who they figured out was working undercover that morning, and, even after he informed the commanding officer of the operation ( on his release from the farm),  that they knew they were coming, & to call the operation off, they still piled in and caused the bloodbath. I don't recall them phoning the President for permission though, so i don't see how Clinton was personally responsible for a bad call by an agent..
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command

IG-Calibre wrote:

watched a very interesting documentary about this on C4 a few months ago. The federal agents fucked up big time - end of story.  They were totally dependant on the element of surprise for the operation to be a sucess. Even though they released an agent, who they figured out was working undercover that morning, and, even after he informed the commanding officer of the operation ( on his release from the farm),  that they knew they were coming, & to call the operation off, they still piled in and caused the bloodbath. I don't recall them phoning the President for permission though, so i don't see how Clinton was personally responsible for a bad call by an agent..
They wanted to use heavy handed tactics to justify their purchase of APC'
s and automatic weapons. They wanted to go up against somebody that would shoot back.

Waco, the rules of engagement has the best footage of the crimes.

There was a fifteen year old boy on top of a corn silo. They shot him even though he was unarmed. It took four days of negotiations before the federal bastards would let them remove the body.
san4
The Mas
+311|6690|NYC, a place to live

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government.  If Bush does it to little brown people across the globe and disappears some raghead sympathizers here in the states, then everything is peachy keen and business as usual.
The Branch Davidians were US citizens on US soil. Big difference.

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Even more ironically, when the USA PATRIOTS Act came about, advocating even more ham-handed justice against the American people, those same people shouting "Ruby Ridge!" suddenly turn very pro-Bushie.
The USA Patriot act doesn't allow the Federal government to engage in violent attacks. But I agree, I find it surprising there isn't more right-wing Libertarian opposition to the Patriot Act. The Feds can sneak into your house and snoop around without telling you? Whatever happened to "my home is my castle" so keep the fuck out? The NRA should be outraged that the law could be used to see what kind of weapons people have in their homes.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Oh, we are.
HunterOfSkulls
Rated EC-10
+246|6281

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government.  If Bush does it to little brown people across the globe and disappears some raghead sympathizers here in the states, then everything is peachy keen and business as usual.  Forgive me if I choose to be sympathetic to both under humanist principles rather than picking and choosing my outrages based on race or religion of the victims.  Yes, that means that this "conspiracy theory" is every bit as real to me as the "neo-con shadow government" currently doing far worse things to far more people.
I've got one better. It's okay even if law enforcement fires thousands of rounds of automatic weapons fire into and through an apartment building in a packed urban area then drops an explosive charge on the building, resulting in its destruction and a fire that then destroys sixty-odd other homes in the area. I am of course speaking about the black radical group MOVE in Philadelphia, back in 1985. I've seen people who scream about the injustice of Waco and Ruby Ridge both minimize the dangerous idiocy of law enforcement and flat-out state that the MOVE members killed deserved to die because they were squatters and we all know property crime is deserving of a death sentence. But then again, this is hardly surprising when you're talking to people who quote fucking Stormfront as a source of information.

Stingray, seriously, for fuck's sake Stormfront? One of the organizations that praised the attacks of 9/11 and hoped that other white supremacists would take advantage of the climate immediately after them by launching their own attacks? Let me be clear, I don't like Randy Weaver, I would not have lost any sleep if the feds had shot his ass dead. His kids didn't deserve to be brought into it by either side, just like Waco and just like Waco law enforcement fucked it all up from the word 'go'. I can explain this without having to use scumbag neo-nazi boneheads as an informational source.

Anyway, returning from that tangent, I find that a lot of the right-wing types who decry the "jackbooted thugs of law enforcement" in both the Waco and Ruby Ridge cases experience two types of cognitive dissonance. One, many of them seem to think that the federal law enforcement apparatus that was so utterly evil under Reno can somehow now be trusted with increased powers under Ashcroft and then Gonzales. As if the moment that Reno left office, all of them were suddenly released from some evil spell that held them under her complete control. Two, many of them can scream about the injustice of law enforcement going after pedophiles with messianic complexes and racists but either fall silent or enthusiastically support law enforcement when they go after the "right" people: the right people being anyone even remotely leftist or anyone that doesn't fit their idea of "American citizen". Usually that's when they seem to feel that law enforcement can't be brutal enough. Funny how I get this feeling that the supposed "patriots" in this country would be happy to sit back and let the feds get all the way up to and past the point where they're openly liquidating American citizens as long as the right people were dying. I imagine it would save them a lot of dirty work.
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6228
Fuck Koresh and those loonies.
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6228

HunterOfSkulls wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

If it happened under Clinton's watch and the victims were good god-fearing white folk, then it was a horrible ham-handed tragedy committed by our government.  If Bush does it to little brown people across the globe and disappears some raghead sympathizers here in the states, then everything is peachy keen and business as usual.  Forgive me if I choose to be sympathetic to both under humanist principles rather than picking and choosing my outrages based on race or religion of the victims.  Yes, that means that this "conspiracy theory" is every bit as real to me as the "neo-con shadow government" currently doing far worse things to far more people.
I've got one better. It's okay even if law enforcement fires thousands of rounds of automatic weapons fire into and through an apartment building in a packed urban area then drops an explosive charge on the building, resulting in its destruction and a fire that then destroys sixty-odd other homes in the area. I am of course speaking about the black radical group MOVE in Philadelphia, back in 1985. I've seen people who scream about the injustice of Waco and Ruby Ridge both minimize the dangerous idiocy of law enforcement and flat-out state that the MOVE members killed deserved to die because they were squatters and we all know property crime is deserving of a death sentence. But then again, this is hardly surprising when you're talking to people who quote fucking Stormfront as a source of information.

Stingray, seriously, for fuck's sake Stormfront? One of the organizations that praised the attacks of 9/11 and hoped that other white supremacists would take advantage of the climate immediately after them by launching their own attacks? Let me be clear, I don't like Randy Weaver, I would not have lost any sleep if the feds had shot his ass dead. His kids didn't deserve to be brought into it by either side, just like Waco and just like Waco law enforcement fucked it all up from the word 'go'. I can explain this without having to use scumbag neo-nazi boneheads as an informational source.

Anyway, returning from that tangent, I find that a lot of the right-wing types who decry the "jackbooted thugs of law enforcement" in both the Waco and Ruby Ridge cases experience two types of cognitive dissonance. One, many of them seem to think that the federal law enforcement apparatus that was so utterly evil under Reno can somehow now be trusted with increased powers under Ashcroft and then Gonzales. As if the moment that Reno left office, all of them were suddenly released from some evil spell that held them under her complete control. Two, many of them can scream about the injustice of law enforcement going after pedophiles with messianic complexes and racists but either fall silent or enthusiastically support law enforcement when they go after the "right" people: the right people being anyone even remotely leftist or anyone that doesn't fit their idea of "American citizen". Usually that's when they seem to feel that law enforcement can't be brutal enough. Funny how I get this feeling that the supposed "patriots" in this country would be happy to sit back and let the feds get all the way up to and past the point where they're openly liquidating American citizens as long as the right people were dying. I imagine it would save them a lot of dirty work.
also this guy is pretty much spot on.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
Feel free to find another source, HunterofSkulls, there’s plenty more.  I had no previous knowledge of Stormfront, simply posted the first link on the long list. 

Are you disputing the fact that a woman was sniped while holding a baby?  Good luck with that.  Here's a couple for your reading pleasure.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/c … 082102.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-02-2.html

Waco and Ruby Ridge did have jackbooted law enforcement on display.  Nothing remotely similar under Ashcroft or Gonzales.   Oh and prosecute the pedos anytime.  Next time just try not to burn down the building around them killing innocent people who have committed no crime.
Sanjaya
Banned
+40|6228
White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

Sanjaya wrote:

White separatists. No great loss. Not like they really wanted to be part of America anyway.
Shut up man.  Schillinger would kick your ass if he heard you say that.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

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