acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|6663|NAS Jacksonville, Florida
I was reading about the new Orion spacecraft, and wandered about onto the topic of constructing a lunar outpost on one of the Moon's poles by 2024 or so. Here's a wiki link for some info about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_outpost_%28NASA%29

So, I bring you this thread to ask if you guys think it's a good idea to build a lunar outpost on the moon.

Personally, I think a lunar outpost would be an awesome feat for man. Most of the possibilities that can come from creating a lunar outpost seem to be extremely positive and beneficial.
[CANADA]_Zenmaster
Pope Picard II
+473|6716

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|6663|NAS Jacksonville, Florida
Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
TuataraDude
Member
+115|6493|Aotearoa
The idea of us doing it is great, but our Canadian friend has a point. Having achieved a base on the moon, would people read better? Would they be less hungry? Would some be less inclined to steal from others? Unfortunately not. No matter what we do, there will always be these problems like this on the planet because people are generally greedy. Therefore I say "Go for it". No point helping people who will just bite the hand that feeds them

Having saud that, I reiterate, Zenmaster has a very valid point. I just don't think we can help everyone because some people don't want help, and others are prevented by the locals from receiving any help. A shame really.
iamangry
Member
+59|6616|The United States of America

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
You're right, that stuff would all be great.  Here's the thing though, we're never gonna be perfect.  Think what you want, hope what you will, but its not going to happen.  Now someday the shit is going to hit the fan here on Earth... either we're all gonna get killed by something natural or were gonna kill ourselves (because we're not perfect).  So from the perspective of preserving the human race so that we may strive to do better even after Earth ceases to be a viable home, we should be investing heavily in seeding ourselves amongst at the very least the planets.  Besides, the technological advances that are made from pushing the envelope of our capabilities to build what you call monuments has been and will continue to be a source for enormous amounts of gain to our standard of living, which is what you are talking about.  Every technical field has benefited from the American space program, from medicine to theoretical physics.  Additionally, the American space program has given the opportunity for people from many different countries all over the world to travel to space, not the least of which is your native Canada.  This, and international projects like the International Space Station have attempted to bind us all together across borders as a single international community.  So lets keep the ignorant space bashing down to a minimum in this thread, because it really has no place if the best reasons not to have a space program are the reasons you have enumerated.

On topic, I think a lunar base is a great idea.  With a constant human presence on the moon longer, more detailed research projects can be attempted.
[CANADA]_Zenmaster
Pope Picard II
+473|6716

iamangry wrote:

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
You're right, that stuff would all be great.  Here's the thing though, we're never gonna be perfect.  Think what you want, hope what you will, but its not going to happen.  Now someday the shit is going to hit the fan here on Earth... either we're all gonna get killed by something natural or were gonna kill ourselves (because we're not perfect).  So from the perspective of preserving the human race so that we may strive to do better even after Earth ceases to be a viable home, we should be investing heavily in seeding ourselves amongst at the very least the planets.  Besides, the technological advances that are made from pushing the envelope of our capabilities to build what you call monuments has been and will continue to be a source for enormous amounts of gain to our standard of living, which is what you are talking about.  Every technical field has benefited from the American space program, from medicine to theoretical physics.  Additionally, the American space program has given the opportunity for people from many different countries all over the world to travel to space, not the least of which is your native Canada.  This, and international projects like the International Space Station have attempted to bind us all together across borders as a single international community.  So lets keep the ignorant space bashing down to a minimum in this thread, because it really has no place if the best reasons not to have a space program are the reasons you have enumerated.

On topic, I think a lunar base is a great idea.  With a constant human presence on the moon longer, more detailed research projects can be attempted.
That sounds like blind emotion and academic waffling to me. I agree everything has its positives and negatives, but you somehow dismiss not only what I said as "ignorant space bashing" but also as insignificant.

You really think going to the moon has a greater benefit then feeding and educating the massive population in this world that would become part of the work force and contribute much more significantly? I am sure that if the human population survives WW4 we will make it to the moon someday, but I hardly think now is the time for that given the current state of affairs.

Look at what Bush has accomplished in his time. Look at Britain. Look all over, inclulding Canada and our "great" Canadian society. Look at the terrorist agenda. Look at all the countries I left out; everyone has a lot of dirty laundry. Are we advancing society for the betterment of man? Hardly, this world isn't ready to push for the moon, except to turn it into an early refuse heap. Im sure Northrop-Grumman, Raytheon etc. would make a killing though (har har).

Just an aside, its not that I don't think NASA is legitimate or that these things aren't positive in many ways. Its simply a question of resources, basic economics really. We could spend a lot of money going to the moon, or we could spend that on education, health-care, quality of life, etc. And before this gets dismissed as the glass is half-empty, there is a lot in this world that is positive and contributed by people in many countries, but that doesn't mean we can white-wash out the bad or vice-versa. We are making progress, however progress can be set back, and it can be reversed and if people spend a wee bit of time looking around them, I think that they too can realize it is shocking what is going on lately.

Negative Canadian resident, over.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6256
Making moon bases and sending men to Mars are two very good ways of stripping money from genuine, interesting, scientificly useful programmes. There's little point in doing either of these two things till they become way cheaper. For now send sattelites, they're cheaper and far better then sending people. Even then there'll be little point.
BVC
Member
+325|6666

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
Its good in theory.  Unfortunately some people just don't want to be helped.
some_random_panda
Flamesuit essential
+454|6361

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
I'm planning to build a dog kennel in the unexplored region of my backyard for only $80 Aus.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
Wish I could say 'duly ignored,' but anybody who thinks the space program(s) ha(s/ve) contributed nothing to our quality of life is delusional.

I can't even begin to say how stupid withdrawing from space exploration and expansion sounds.

(Besides which, the Borg are due shortly. Better kick things in gear.)

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-03-06 03:22:22)

Janysc
Member
+59|6654|Norway
Money can't nurture anyone.

But an international project between the US, Russia and China (for example) will bond countries and, in the long run, make things better.
iamangry
Member
+59|6616|The United States of America

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

(Besides which, the Borg are due shortly. Better kick things in gear.)
Good reason number 2!

No seriously though.  I understand what you're getting at Zenmaster, why expand before we're ok here?  But the same things could be said about foreign aid on a domestic scale.  Why help other nations while our own needs help?  But we do help other nations because it ultimately helps our children.  The more equal people are, the less likely they are to fight.  You are treating this like an economic issue, and economics are one part of it.  But there is a much larger part... time.  We could throw America's entire GDP at the problem... would it be fixed within a year?  No.  It won't be fixed because people have bad blood between one another, because people dislike change, because its too much wrestling with the status quo.  For example, take the urban school system in Washington D.C.  They practically have pools of money, and yet their test scores are prohibitively low, their drop out rate is prohibitively high.  Its no longer a money issue, its a time issue.  The people's parents don't encourage learning, gangs are rampant, and everything's just messed up.  But it's not a money problem, its an attitude problem.  And changing the attitude of a people takes time.   One must spend their resources in a balanced way.  For things take time as well as money, and its no use wasting time now to save money.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

iamangry wrote:

Its no longer a money issue, its a time issue.
Sort of like throwing money at disease. While it helps research and development a ton, a basket of Benjamins the radius of Texas and the depth of of Mt. Kahulakrakajok isn't going to cure the common cold any faster.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
Wish I could say 'duly ignored,' but anybody who thinks the space program(s) ha(s/ve) contributed nothing to our quality of life is delusional.

I can't even begin to say how stupid withdrawing from space exploration and expansion sounds.

(Besides which, the Borg are due shortly. Better kick things in gear.)
Today 13:19:35      +1      Lunar Outpost      you are a quasi-intellectual toolbox. +1'd
Riiiiiiight...
Superslim
BF2s Frat Brother
+211|6662|Calgary
Sure, sounds neat, but really  WTF for? Cost would be Billions, for what?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

Superslim wrote:

WTF for?
At our level of technology, a moon base could be considered more viable for long-term scientific residence than a space station. Not only does it have some small amount of gravity, but facilities placed underground would provide more protection from radiation than a thin station wall.

I'd certainly rather tax dollars went into that than buying more plain yogurt and dumbells for inmate weightlifters.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-03-06 17:40:43)

Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6714|Reality
Actually the micro gravity of the moon would have industrial and scientific uses. A lot of the shuttle's microgravity experiments have shown interesting potential in several areas.

Going to Mars on the other hand, would be a collosal(sp?) waste of money. The Zenmaster has got the nail hit squarely with the hammer.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6691|California

We need to get off this deathtrap that is Earth.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

stryyker wrote:

We need to get off this deathtrap that is Earth.
It's not as much earth as it is Humans...but I see your point.

This is extremely pessimistic of me, but if there's a cataclysmic event and we have a lunar outpost, we could pretty much continue the human race. It'd be a good thing.
[CANADA]_Zenmaster
Pope Picard II
+473|6716

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:

I think an awesome feat for man would be oh I duno feeding our population, educating them, getting them into a solid work force, stop fighting eachother, stop thieving eachothers resources etc. Sure we could spend 50 gigabillion dollars on something monumental, but that is all it would be, a monument. Are we here to build static monuments and worship before them or actually accomplish something with the people on this earth?

Bf2s users may feel free to ignore this post as some form of socialist pinko commie bullshit, but deep down we all know that is not the intent and that there is something significant here.
Wish I could say 'duly ignored,' but anybody who thinks the space program(s) ha(s/ve) contributed nothing to our quality of life is delusional.

I can't even begin to say how stupid withdrawing from space exploration and expansion sounds.

(Besides which, the Borg are due shortly. Better kick things in gear.)
Today 13:19:35      +1      Lunar Outpost      you are a quasi-intellectual toolbox. +1'd
Riiiiiiight...
I didn't karma you so don't leap to conclusions. I do however concur with the karma. Ask an admin to verify it wasn't my karma if you wish.

Edit: I just realized I can karma you as a quasi-intellectual toolbox to prove the first wasn't mine. Enjoy your flame now at least you have "cause".

Last edited by [CANADA]_Zenmaster (2007-03-06 19:00:42)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6677|67.222.138.85

stryyker wrote:

We need to get off this deathtrap that is Earth.
We need a way to get the hell out when things get bad, or at least to relieve some tensions here. A project like that could also bring everyone together to work toward a goal, much like it brought the U.S. together in the space race.
NeXuS
Shock it till ya know it
+375|6312|Atlanta, Georgia
if america colonize's the moon the insurgents and N. Korea will nuke the moon. iunno.
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6691|California

Problems:

Solar weather.
X-Ray and Gamma radiation will kill/disrupt crucial systems on the moon, seeing as it has no atmosphere.

Meteors.
No atmosphere, and laser defense of them is long off.

Russians.
They might send a dog into space again. Do you really want that?
Janysc
Member
+59|6654|Norway

stryyker wrote:

Problems:

Solar weather.
X-Ray and Gamma radiation will kill/disrupt crucial systems on the moon, seeing as it has no atmosphere.

Meteors.
No atmosphere, and laser defense of them is long off.

Russians.
They might send a dog into space again. Do you really want that?
Meteors crash on Luna as often as meteors crash in my back yard. Earth's gravity field is the stronger. We're Luna's benelovent Jupiter.
Solar weather will not affect electronics on Luna if they're shielded properly.
unmountable
Member
+6|6486|Berlin, Germany

Janysc wrote:

Meteors crash on Luna as often as meteors crash in my back yard. Earth's gravity field is the stronger. We're Luna's benelovent Jupiter.
Most of the (smaller) meteors are burned in the earth's atmosphere bevor they hit your back yard.
And the moon doesn't have any atmosphere...

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