Iraq really is a catastrophic ever-worsening quagmire. What a crying shame. I doubt Iraq will ever fully recover from this. Of late I've even sensed a change in tone among some of those who were ardent advocates of the war in Iraq, only now realising and conceding that it was wrong to go there and that the war was fought on false pretences.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-09-06 07:16:13)
But I think they changed too late. Now the damage is done, who will ifx it? UN? I don't think so.
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-09-06 07:19:57)
I understand your point, but what do you do with the mess this war did in Iraq? They must fix it? I think it's time for reparation for Iraq.
i've often wondered are there any Hitler's still in Austria. you know like shop owners? "im nipping round to Hitlers to get a pack of cigarettes" or did they all change their names too?
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-09-06 07:53:38)
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
Xbone Stormsurgezz
The fact of the matter is though that this won't happen. Maybe someone can correct me but I don't think Vietnam were paid any reparations for the destruction the US needlessly served upon their country. The world is an unjust place - in some instances you just have to learn to live with that because there is little you can do to influence the fact.sergeriver wrote:
I understand your point, but what do you do with the mess this war did in Iraq? They must fix it? I think it's time for reparation for Iraq.
So, Vietnam did not leave anything to learn from? Countries make the same mistakes over and overa again.CameronPoe wrote:
The fact of the matter is though that this won't happen. Maybe someone can correct me but I don't think Vietnam were paid any reparations for the destruction the US needlessly served upon their country. The world is an unjust place - in some instances you just have to learn to live with that because there is little you can do to influence the fact.sergeriver wrote:
I understand your point, but what do you do with the mess this war did in Iraq? They must fix it? I think it's time for reparation for Iraq.
the whole middle east is a complete quagmire, sure look it took the Russians 15 years to get out of Afghanistan, So the troops are going to be in Iraq/Afghanistan for a right while yet no mistake
How many Halabjas worth of Iraqi deaths have we had since the latest US invasion commenced? The Kurds should have risen up. Fight your own fight, ask for financial assistance, etc. if you must, but you win freedom for your people through your own resolve, blood, sweat and tears. I don't see Palestinians sitting on their hands while Israel oppresses them and steals more of their land every passing day. The Kurds should have taken a leaf out of their book. Obviously there are a great many nuances and counter-arguments that could be thrown at me but the principle of which I speak is correct, in my belief.Kmarion wrote:
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
True freedom rarely comes at the hands of a third party. What Saddam did there was a heinous crime, don't get me wrong, but the country 'Iraq' is an artificial nation leftover from colonial times with no real reason why the people of the various ethnicities/creeds within those aritfical borders should exist under the same flag. Saddam was the evil glue that held it all together with an iron fist. It's now time for the civil war that has been brewing for centuries to take place and to sort this region out once and for all.
what did little miss moffet and Saddam have in common? they both had kurds in their way *boom Boom*
...i'll just get me coat
...i'll just get me coat
I like it when conservative minds argue against change. Obviously something will happen, it IS change, and it will take some time. The reason change is important is because, despite the consequences, things will be better afterwards. The status quo is a slow slide into oblivion.Kmarion wrote:
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
I agree there'll be change in Iraq, but did they need things more fucked up with war?jonsimon wrote:
I like it when conservative minds argue against change. Obviously something will happen, it IS change, and it will take some time. The reason change is important is because, despite the consequences, things will be better afterwards. The status quo is a slow slide into oblivion.Kmarion wrote:
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
lol, god, what an awful joke. I have to reuse it though. How about +1, since I'm not going to give you credit for it?IG-Calibre wrote:
what did little miss moffet and Saddam have in common? they both had kurds in their way *boom Boom*
...i'll just get me coat
Showing that link wasn't a mere tally of which is worse. History will decide that ultimately. The point was to reinforce the fact that either way is just plain ugly. You say the Kurds should have risen up but isn't that what they were doing?CameronPoe wrote:
How many Halabjas worth of Iraqi deaths have we had since the latest US invasion commenced? The Kurds should have risen up. Fight your own fight, ask for financial assistance, etc. if you must, but you win freedom for your people through your own resolve, blood, sweat and tears. I don't see Palestinians sitting on their hands while Israel oppresses them and steals more of their land every passing day. The Kurds should have taken a leaf out of their book. Obviously there are a great many nuances and counter-arguments that could be thrown at me but the principle of which I speak is correct, in my belief.Kmarion wrote:
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Who will fix it? The Iraqis - they're the only ones who can and they should be left alone to sort out their own ethnic hatred issues and to form a country (or countries) of their own choosing. Let's face it - it's a civil war - the west has no right to determine how things should end up there. They need to work things out for themselves. And in 20 years time - maybe Iraq will be a prosperous member of the global community (or Iraq, Kurdistan and the Islamic Republic of Basrastan as the case may be!!).
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
True freedom rarely comes at the hands of a third party. What Saddam did there was a heinous crime, don't get me wrong, but the country 'Iraq' is an artificial nation leftover from colonial times with no real reason why the people of the various ethnicities/creeds within those aritfical borders should exist under the same flag. Saddam was the evil glue that held it all together with an iron fist. It's now time for the civil war that has been brewing for centuries to take place and to sort this region out once and for all.
"How many Halabjas worth of Iraqi deaths have we had since the latest US invasion commenced?" Much less than than the few hundred thousand victims of that attack. Say what you will, but we are not dropping mustard gas, and the nerve agents sarin on Entire villages.
Look, I agree that only the Iraqi people ultimately can fix Iraq but your description of how it should be done seemed to nonchalant for me not to reiterate how bad it still would be if they were left to work it out on their own.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Fair enough but I would like to point out that you seem to be exaggerating the number of dead at Halabja. Estimates of casualties range from several hundred to 7,000 people. Estimates of the dead since the invasion of Iraq range to the hundreds of thousands by various accounts. And on one of your other points one could argue that the depleted uranium that the US use will do the Iraqi people untold damage out into the future, and by saying that I'm not condoning the use of mustard gas - just making a point.Kmarion wrote:
Showing that link wasn't a mere tally of which is worse. History will decide that ultimately. The point was to reinforce the fact that either way is just plain ugly. You say the Kurds should have risen up but isn't that what they were doing?CameronPoe wrote:
How many Halabjas worth of Iraqi deaths have we had since the latest US invasion commenced? The Kurds should have risen up. Fight your own fight, ask for financial assistance, etc. if you must, but you win freedom for your people through your own resolve, blood, sweat and tears. I don't see Palestinians sitting on their hands while Israel oppresses them and steals more of their land every passing day. The Kurds should have taken a leaf out of their book. Obviously there are a great many nuances and counter-arguments that could be thrown at me but the principle of which I speak is correct, in my belief.Kmarion wrote:
Leaving them alone to sort out their own hatred issues.
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html
True freedom rarely comes at the hands of a third party. What Saddam did there was a heinous crime, don't get me wrong, but the country 'Iraq' is an artificial nation leftover from colonial times with no real reason why the people of the various ethnicities/creeds within those aritfical borders should exist under the same flag. Saddam was the evil glue that held it all together with an iron fist. It's now time for the civil war that has been brewing for centuries to take place and to sort this region out once and for all.
"How many Halabjas worth of Iraqi deaths have we had since the latest US invasion commenced?" Much less than than the few hundred thousand victims of that attack. Say what you will, but we are not dropping mustard gas, and the nerve agents sarin on Entire villages.
Look, I agree that only the Iraqi people ultimately can fix Iraq but your description of how it should be done seemed to nonchalant for me not to reiterate how bad it still would be if they were left to work it out on their own.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-09-06 09:21:56)
.Understood. The numbers is not only the direct results but the after affects such as respiratory problems, cancer..etc. That is why I said victims and not deaths.
Last edited by Kmarion (2006-09-06 10:06:07)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Yup here's how I look at Iraq. It's like when you're a 12 year kid and you're parents piss you off and you want to run away. Sometimes you do but you always end up going back home, untill you're 18 and can take care of yourself. Now in some instances this 12 year old kids get picked up by a stranger and can never go home again. Moral of the story "strangers Have the best candy"
This is what was going on in Iraq they were growing as a people and a country, it takes time. Now what happened was the U.S. drove up to Iraq with there black van and candy and force them to do it our way. Now Iraq doesn't have the slightest notion of what to do. Think about how our country was created? We were created throwing the english out. Iraq might truely become it's own country once they band together and throw the U.S. out..
This is what was going on in Iraq they were growing as a people and a country, it takes time. Now what happened was the U.S. drove up to Iraq with there black van and candy and force them to do it our way. Now Iraq doesn't have the slightest notion of what to do. Think about how our country was created? We were created throwing the english out. Iraq might truely become it's own country once they band together and throw the U.S. out..
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-09-06 11:42:50)
While that analogy makes sense in your head it made no sense to me what so ever plus the French liberated you from the English
Well they helped, with us asking. What I'm basically saying is the country has to want to change from the inside and ask for outside help if need be. If you force it you're going to end up in a bad situation.
I agree, I believe we have a stronger duty towards the likes of Burma than Iraq, but then Burma has no oil..
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=42061
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=42061