Iraq - BF2S Forums

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Poll

Should we pull out of Iraq

Right now	14%	14% - 20
Yes	13%	13% - 19
No wait until Iraq can support themselfs	71%	71% - 98
Total: 137

2006-04-18 14:51:51

Marconius: One-eyed Wonder Mod; +368|6934|San Francisco

kkolodsick wrote:
GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't. Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?

Wow...the good, blind religion/faith card in play.

for Fucks sake, READ THIS and then look who thought up, drafted, signed, and then tried to implement in the early 90s, and are now well on their way to implementing it now.

You read that and then, only then, try to tell me he's really a christian.

2006-04-18 15:01:11

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|6884

90 fucking pages...ill take your word for it

2006-04-18 18:26:58

RAIMIUS: You with the face!; +244|6955|US

I did NOT see G.W.Bush on there, did you?

We need to stay in Iraq, or we will leave it worse than it was. While Saddam's torture and murder of dissenters was horrible, a violent, fundamentalist theocracy is definitely worse.

2006-04-18 18:53:18

Marconius: One-eyed Wonder Mod; +368|6934|San Francisco

Sure, but the rest of his administration is on there. All of the actions he's been taking have coincided with what the PNAC dictates, so there you go.

2006-04-18 18:59:29

Fuzzball_the_Shooter: The Photographer.; +81|6945|Central Valley,California

All of the wars in the Middle East will never stop, they have been fighting since biblical times and will always fight. I say pull out, why risk American soliders dieing? Iraq needs to learn how to train themselves, we have enough problems of our own.

2006-04-18 19:24:08

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6915|Canberra, AUS

All those who can't get through the PNAC statement...

The PNAC (or Project for a New American Century) is a right-wing 'think-tank' who state that America's goal should be a global, US Military-run 'democracy' (or empire would be more accurate)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2006-04-18 19:39:37

bruisehound: Member; +14|7020

I think Bush is a man of deep faith.
That's why he went to Iraq.

Not for WMDs
Not for Al-Qaeda
Not for oil

Bush is there because he believes God wants him to be there.
Just like bin Laden is doing his thing because he believes God wants him to.

Bush believes that democracy, capitalism and Christianity (some kind of Christianity that skipped all those parts about pacifism and forgiving your enemies and giving up all your worldly possessions) are best for everyone in the world.

Bin Laden believes that Islamic law (some kind of Islam that skipped all those parts about not attacking civilians and all those parts that totally forbid any kind of self-harm, INCLUDING SUICIDE) is best for everyone in the world.

Bush went to Iraq to begin saving the middle east. Helping them to what he believes is the inevitable and best form of government: democracy. Unfortunately, not every nation is cut out for democracy.
Some people can't agree on a government and will tear themselves to pieces.
Other people will elect militaristic fundamentalists.

Last edited by bruisehound (2006-04-18 19:45:07)

2006-04-18 19:40:29

kkolodsick: Member; +14|6906

cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well KK right now we're paying more then a hundred dollars for a country that doesn't deserve it IMHO. Not just the war itself, but the rebuilding of Iraq.

Now the whole War stimulates the econimy thing only worked in WW2 because we lent out money and resourses for stuff then needed constructed here. In this case it's not going to work that way, because they'll get the AID from other countries. So as of right now it's a thankless task that is going to send us down the road that Russia went. And get the whole Democracy BS that you learned in Highschool out of your head, America is not a working Democracy it's capitalism at it's best.

I figured that was where you were going w/ the $100.
For starters, we broke most of it now we have to fix it. We cannot take down a leader and then just leave the country in rubble.

I appreciate you think I'm somehow uninformed because we disagree buy my MBA has taught me a bit. Don't assume the high school thing since you don't know the first thing about me.

So your suggestion is that we invaded Iraq to somehow stimulate our economy? Interesting but on the level we are at in Iraq ~125k troops (if memory serves) that is not nearly enough to have a war-time economy situation that you speak of.

2006-04-18 19:42:57

kkolodsick: Member; +14|6906

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
90 fucking pages...ill take your word for it

I will blindly agree as well.

Yes, I am a Christian but not blindly. GWB is a man like everyone else. The man professes to be Christian so I must take him at his word as I would you if you said the same thing. I don't know his heart or yours.

2006-04-18 19:49:17

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6915|Canberra, AUS

kkolodsick wrote:
GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
90 fucking pages...ill take your word for it
I will blindly agree as well.

Yes, I am a Christian but not blindly. GWB is a man like everyone else. The man professes to be Christian so I must take him at his word as I would you if you said the same thing. I don't know his heart or yours.

Just because you are a Christian does not mean instant qualification for 'being a good man'. You can be rich, overbearing, cruel, crass and obnoxious and still have faith in God (sorry, but I'm a little heated. See the christian topic for my nice little rant )

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2006-04-18 19:55:23

kkolodsick: Member; +14|6906

Spark wrote:
kkolodsick wrote:
GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
90 fucking pages...ill take your word for it
I will blindly agree as well.

Yes, I am a Christian but not blindly. GWB is a man like everyone else. The man professes to be Christian so I must take him at his word as I would you if you said the same thing. I don't know his heart or yours.
Just because you are a Christian does not mean instant qualification for 'being a good man'. You can be rich, overbearing, cruel, crass and obnoxious and still have faith in God (sorry, but I'm a little heated. See the christian topic for my nice little rant )

When did I say GWB was an instant good man? It's a pretty large claim to make of someone, especially the President of the United States and a Christian, to send troops to die for "personal reasons". That was my only point about the Christian thing.

I'm at the front of the line for being an idiot. (I opened the door please don't walk through w/ the obvious)

2006-04-18 20:02:21

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6915|Canberra, AUS

kkolodsick wrote:
Spark wrote:
kkolodsick wrote:

I will blindly agree as well.

Yes, I am a Christian but not blindly. GWB is a man like everyone else. The man professes to be Christian so I must take him at his word as I would you if you said the same thing. I don't know his heart or yours.
Just because you are a Christian does not mean instant qualification for 'being a good man'. You can be rich, overbearing, cruel, crass and obnoxious and still have faith in God (sorry, but I'm a little heated. See the christian topic for my nice little rant )
When did I say GWB was an instant good man? It's a pretty large claim to make of someone, especially the President of the United States and a Christian, to send troops to die for "personal reasons". That was my only point about the Christian thing.

I'm at the front of the line for being an idiot. (I opened the door please don't walk through w/ the obvious)

Cheack the other thread (the 24-page one).

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2006-04-18 20:03:30

chitlin: Banned; +36|7003

Marconius wrote:
kkolodsick wrote:
GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't. Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?
Wow...the good, blind religion/faith card in play.

for Fucks sake, READ THIS and then look who thought up, drafted, signed, and then tried to implement in the early 90s, and are now well on their way to implementing it now.

You read that and then, only then, try to tell me he's really a christian.

sorry douche g dub and his croanies didnt wrtie that it was thinktanks

but of course any rational thinking person knows that bush and them were looking for an exscuse and chose wmd's knowing full well it was never actually the motive

2006-04-18 20:04:14

Ajax_the_Great1: Dropped on request; +206|6886

Bush just can't win with you people. He goes to war, you bitch at him. He won't leave, you bitch at him. If he decides to leave, you bitch at him. My god, stop with the bitching you damn pessimists.

Last edited by Ajax_the_Great1 (2006-04-18 20:04:35)

2006-04-18 20:06:03

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6915|Canberra, AUS

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Bush just can't win with you people. He goes to war, you bitch at him. He won't leave, you bitch at him. If he decides to leave, you bitch at him. My god, stop with the bitching you damn pessimists.

We all need scapegoats to hide out insecurities. Except me

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2006-04-18 20:12:52

kkolodsick: Member; +14|6906

Spark wrote:
Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Bush just can't win with you people. He goes to war, you bitch at him. He won't leave, you bitch at him. If he decides to leave, you bitch at him. My god, stop with the bitching you damn pessimists.
We all need scapegoats to hide out insecurities. Except me

nice...lol

2006-04-18 20:35:17

IronFerret: Member; +48|6897|Mexico City.

look this

http://electroniciraq.net/news/2309.shtml

Last edited by IronFerret (2006-04-18 21:13:15)

2006-04-19 07:00:33

B.Schuss: I'm back, baby... ( sort of ); +664|7081|Cologne, Germany

The question at hand is wether Iraq will ever become a stable democracy, because that's when the US forces could leave. Personally, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As a lot of people here have already said, you cannot force people to be good democrats ( sic ). Democratic traditions have to develop, they need time to grow. Most of the people in Iraq have been living either under Saddam's dictatorship or under tribal rule for decades. They are not used to democracy. Voting is one thing. Everybody can do that. But really living a modern day democracy after all the Iraqis have been through the last decades ? No way. That will take some time.

Iraq had its first free parlamentary election in december of last year. But do they have a working government ? nope. The various tribes and ethnic groups are still fighting for political power in that country.

The US can't leave until public order is restored, and people can walk the streets safely without having to fear a suicide bomber ripping them to pieces. Considering Al'Quaeda and other insurgent acitvities, I wonder what you all think when the US will be able to finally leave. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years ?

2006-04-19 07:12:15

bruisehound: Member; +14|7020

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Bush just can't win with you people. He goes to war, you bitch at him. He won't leave, you bitch at him. If he decides to leave, you bitch at him. My god, stop with the bitching you damn pessimists.

Actually, Bush could have one with me by not going to war in the first place.

2006-04-19 07:50:59

atlvolunteer: PKMMMMMMMMMM; +27|7011|Atlanta, GA USA

B.Schuss wrote:
The question at hand is wether Iraq will ever become a stable democracy, because that's when the US forces could leave. Personally, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As a lot of people here have already said, you cannot force people to be good democrats ( sic ). Democratic traditions have to develop, they need time to grow. Most of the people in Iraq have been living either under Saddam's dictatorship or under tribal rule for decades. They are not used to democracy. Voting is one thing. Everybody can do that. But really living a modern day democracy after all the Iraqis have been through the last decades ? No way. That will take some time.

Iraq had its first free parlamentary election in december of last year. But do they have a working government ? nope. The various tribes and ethnic groups are still fighting for political power in that country.

The US can't leave until public order is restored, and people can walk the streets safely without having to fear a suicide bomber ripping them to pieces. Considering Al'Quaeda and other insurgent acitvities, I wonder what you all think when the US will be able to finally leave. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years ?

Yeah, think about how long it took to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII, and:
1. we didn't have to worry about insurgents
2. Germany at least had had a democracy before the Nazis gained control (were voted into power) (I don't know what kind of gov't Japan had before/during WWII)

2006-04-19 08:12:36

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

I would say not yet though, if the suicide bombings are stopping, then the US can safely pull out. How would you feel if another country invaded your homeland and left without letting yourselves stablize? you would probably feel really pissed.

to atlvolunteer

1. you are correct
2. japan had impirialism... they still had an emporer but his country was mainly runned by the military

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2006-04-19 08:14:53

rustynutz: I am British!; +124|6923|England and damn proud

there will never be peace there, just pull out and let them kill each other, its the best way in my eyes.

2006-04-19 08:25:18

Mike_J: Member; +68|6909

atlvolunteer wrote:
B.Schuss wrote:
The question at hand is wether Iraq will ever become a stable democracy, because that's when the US forces could leave. Personally, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As a lot of people here have already said, you cannot force people to be good democrats ( sic ). Democratic traditions have to develop, they need time to grow. Most of the people in Iraq have been living either under Saddam's dictatorship or under tribal rule for decades. They are not used to democracy. Voting is one thing. Everybody can do that. But really living a modern day democracy after all the Iraqis have been through the last decades ? No way. That will take some time.

Iraq had its first free parlamentary election in december of last year. But do they have a working government ? nope. The various tribes and ethnic groups are still fighting for political power in that country.

The US can't leave until public order is restored, and people can walk the streets safely without having to fear a suicide bomber ripping them to pieces. Considering Al'Quaeda and other insurgent acitvities, I wonder what you all think when the US will be able to finally leave. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years ?
Yeah, think about how long it took to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII, and:
1. we didn't have to worry about insurgents
2. Germany at least had had a democracy before the Nazis gained control (were voted into power) (I don't know what kind of gov't Japan had before/during WWII)

Man, yes, we did encounter an insurgency in Germany after their defeat in WWII. Sure maybe it wasn't as problematic as this current insurgency in Iraq is, but we definately had to deal with one then as well. And to the next guy stating Japan was mostly under military rule before and during WWII, that's correct, but still an understatement. The Emperor would be equivalent to the Pope (not so much political rule and influence, just religious, actually I could be wrong here unless memory serves me right, but i'm pretty sure this is the general idea I got when I studied this years back), but the guys in charge kinda nudged him aside and used the emperor's reputation to get stuff done. What was that one rebellion towards the end of the war called? The one when some soldiers tried to imprison and keep the Emperor from surrendering the country to the US?

2006-04-19 08:49:08

Erkut.hv: Member; +124|6975|California

Marconius wrote:
Sure, but the rest of his administration is on there. All of the actions he's been taking have coincided with what the PNAC dictates, so there you go.

And now that you know all this, you are doing what exactly to make a change? If you believe you are being lied to, mislead, and bullshitted, what exactly are you doing to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Matter of fact, to everyone that hates W (I dislike, hate is too strong of a word), what are you doing to change it? Sitting at the local starbucks with the rest of the hippies, talking about how bad things are, while refusing to do anything to change the climate you live in? Or do you merely spit talking points amongst your friends to feel intellectually elite?

Moveon.org drones unite! Keep spouting the same bullshit rhetoric. You all work for the same political party. The only diference is the animal you bow down to.

2006-04-19 09:01:27

cpt.fass1: The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n; +329|6936|NJ

kkolodsick wrote:
cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well KK right now we're paying more then a hundred dollars for a country that doesn't deserve it IMHO. Not just the war itself, but the rebuilding of Iraq.

Now the whole War stimulates the econimy thing only worked in WW2 because we lent out money and resourses for stuff then needed constructed here. In this case it's not going to work that way, because they'll get the AID from other countries. So as of right now it's a thankless task that is going to send us down the road that Russia went. And get the whole Democracy BS that you learned in Highschool out of your head, America is not a working Democracy it's capitalism at it's best.
I figured that was where you were going w/ the $100.
For starters, we broke most of it now we have to fix it. We cannot take down a leader and then just leave the country in rubble.

I appreciate you think I'm somehow uninformed because we disagree buy my MBA has taught me a bit. Don't assume the high school thing since you don't know the first thing about me.

So your suggestion is that we invaded Iraq to somehow stimulate our economy? Interesting but on the level we are at in Iraq ~125k troops (if memory serves) that is not nearly enough to have a war-time economy situation that you speak of.

First that comment about high school wasn't directed at you, it was a blanket statement for the basis of American high school education, which is fairly accurate, we are drilled into our head that we are the only working democracy out there.

I'm not stateing that you are uninformed at all, again my point on it is that were are throwing money away to a country that was already broken "in our american View", and yes the idea of rebuilding iraq into a democracy is to create an ally that will return our investment. We are not in Iraq for the good of their people, we are there to strengthen our econimy and power in the world. But at the same time we are pissing off the population over there that will become a voting population and won't forget our occupation of the land.

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kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Spark wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

Spark wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

Marconius wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

atlvolunteer wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Marconius wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

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