An offshoot of this from EE chat. Long fucking read but it's good if you want to learn about our college system and debate the merits of ours and yours. This really should the last college thread we ever have since of it's size. I could get citations for everything but I don't have the time to cit everything. The fourth part, what changes I would put in place to fix the issues with our system, will come later. I have a life too you know.
First off an explanation of how our system works for our European friends:
There are two kinds of colleges in the U.S. state and private. State colleges receive tax money for just being state colleges. State tax money offsets the tuition cost in theory. That's why if you apply to a state university they will have in state and out of state tuition fields.The average in state tuition cost for an U.S. university is $10,000 per year.
Private universities only receive government money in the form of research grants. They usually only get these form the Federal government. The 50 states almost never give out research grants. Since Private colleges are private and don't receive government money they can set any tution they want and have no controls set in place to keep it down. The average private university cost about $30,000 a year here in tuition.
Since the U.S. median income is between $26,000 and $40,000, depending on how you decide to measure it, the federal government steps in to make sure a sizable chunk of the U.S. population can receive an education. Due to this 30% of the U.S. population has at least a B.A.
Now the Federal government has two programs to make sure people can go to college. The Federal student load system and the Pell grant system. The Pell Grant system, the one Mr. Libertarian Jay used, gives out roughly $6000 a year to students who make under the federal poverty line. This used to cover an entire year of school when it was enacted but the cos of college has gone up to where it is now and the pell grant amount hasn't been raised to match.
The way our student loan program works is tricky- There are two loans, private and federal. The private loans aren't really private. The government guarantees all of the private loans given out. Meaning you will always get a private loan since the Federal government promises to pay it out if something happens. This is why if you have a student loan contract you will notice there is a section that says your loan will be discharged if you die or are ruled disabled by the Federal government. Rates and plans on these loans vary. The public federal loans work by giving you a very low interest rate and in some cases covering the interest while you are in school. You only have to pay them back when you finish school.
Now that you understand how the system works I'll explain the problems with it.
1. College cost go up every year. It rises faster than inflation. Sometimes 3 times as fast. The cost goes up due to the loans the U.S. gives out. Because the U.S. promises to cover the loans, loan providers will always give out loans no matter how silly or extreme they are. Because a B.A. is the cost of entry into the white collar work market, people will always take out loans to go to school no matter how big they are. Because of schools don't have any incentive to manage cost or to make sure tuition stays low. Because of the exclusiveness of private schools, they are allowed to go crazy with their cost even if the school doesn't justify it. In short tuition will always rise without anything to stop it. The government gives out the money with no oversight up until recently.
2. Because of this constantly flow of money, money gets wasted in many many way. For instance our college sports teams have budgets, and stadiums that rival national sports teams. Imagine if Oxford had their very own Manchester United. That's how money gets spent at a lot of state universes. To make it worse, how much schools spend on their sports team is rising quicker than how they spend on educating students.
3. Because of the cost to go to school there are two big gaps that exist between the college population and the general. The race and income gap. Both gaps are getting bigger. Blacks and Hispanics are very much under represented on U.S. colleges across the country. They also tend to make it too the finish line in much smaller numbers. The even bigger gap is the income gap. Any minority you meet on campus will not be your average minority. They will be in the upper tier of the income distribution for their race. This same thing affects whites. Poor whites do not exist on campuses mostly.Your race and intelligence doesn't matter so much when it comes to education, it's what income bracket you were born into. Because of the cost of college the must intelligent people don't always get to go but the mostly intelligent and wealthy or the least intelligence and wealthy do. That's a problem since our education system should be the great equalizer in our society.
4. To take advantage of the loan money a new monster has shown up. For Profit Universities. These schools are the ones you will will see running ads on television promising careers and degrees in sort amounts of time. The degrees they give are mostly worthless. The cost of their schools are on par with private universities. Their enrollment standards are nonexistent and their students overwhelmingly from the poorest communities. They have enrolled military veterans and suck them dry of their G.I. bills. Their recruiters are told to promise students anything in order to get them to enroll. There was even an instance of the largest for profit school enrolling homeless people in order to get the loan money the government promises. Only recently has there been an attempt by Obama and Congress to stop the for profit industry. It met predictable resistance.
5. The fifth and final issue is with our loan system on the student side. The federal government outsources their federal student loans out to private student loan providers to service. Meaning that federal student loan I mentioned before, the one where the interest is covered and you only have to pay it back after school, is collected by student loan providers. This puts student loan providers in the position of debt gives and debt collectors. Because of the government guaranteeing the loans and the debt collection agency getting a sliver of uncollected debt payments, it is more profitable for the student loan provider for you to default on your student loans. But when you defult on your loans it doesn't mean they disappear. It only means the federal government is going to move in and take away your income tax return or withhold services and other things until the provider gets it's money. Student loans can not be discharged due to bankruptcy.
3. What works about this sytem.
1. Because of how restrictive it is, the system prevents academic inflation like the one the U.K. is suffering.
2. U.S. schools are ranked the best in world by leaps. Our schools are still the goal of students from all over the world. The rest of the world measures their academic standards by our schools. We still suck some of the best and brightest from around the world into our system.
There are other things that work about the system that I will explain later.
The word, college and university are mostly interchangeable over here so if you see me switch between the two don't get confused.FatherTed wrote:
please do. our system isn't perfect either, especially the tripling of fees in the last few years. but the loan is a very small apr, and we get (nationally) large grants alsoMacbeth wrote:
I was just joking. The student loan/college cost thing over here is crazy.FatherTed wrote:
are you not slightly disappointed in your society that it costs so much to learn?
I don't think we should adopt your system though. It needs radical change but nothing radical in the way yours is. I could explain further if you care.
First off an explanation of how our system works for our European friends:
There are two kinds of colleges in the U.S. state and private. State colleges receive tax money for just being state colleges. State tax money offsets the tuition cost in theory. That's why if you apply to a state university they will have in state and out of state tuition fields.The average in state tuition cost for an U.S. university is $10,000 per year.
Private universities only receive government money in the form of research grants. They usually only get these form the Federal government. The 50 states almost never give out research grants. Since Private colleges are private and don't receive government money they can set any tution they want and have no controls set in place to keep it down. The average private university cost about $30,000 a year here in tuition.
Since the U.S. median income is between $26,000 and $40,000, depending on how you decide to measure it, the federal government steps in to make sure a sizable chunk of the U.S. population can receive an education. Due to this 30% of the U.S. population has at least a B.A.
Now the Federal government has two programs to make sure people can go to college. The Federal student load system and the Pell grant system. The Pell Grant system, the one Mr. Libertarian Jay used, gives out roughly $6000 a year to students who make under the federal poverty line. This used to cover an entire year of school when it was enacted but the cos of college has gone up to where it is now and the pell grant amount hasn't been raised to match.
The way our student loan program works is tricky- There are two loans, private and federal. The private loans aren't really private. The government guarantees all of the private loans given out. Meaning you will always get a private loan since the Federal government promises to pay it out if something happens. This is why if you have a student loan contract you will notice there is a section that says your loan will be discharged if you die or are ruled disabled by the Federal government. Rates and plans on these loans vary. The public federal loans work by giving you a very low interest rate and in some cases covering the interest while you are in school. You only have to pay them back when you finish school.
Now that you understand how the system works I'll explain the problems with it.
1. College cost go up every year. It rises faster than inflation. Sometimes 3 times as fast. The cost goes up due to the loans the U.S. gives out. Because the U.S. promises to cover the loans, loan providers will always give out loans no matter how silly or extreme they are. Because a B.A. is the cost of entry into the white collar work market, people will always take out loans to go to school no matter how big they are. Because of schools don't have any incentive to manage cost or to make sure tuition stays low. Because of the exclusiveness of private schools, they are allowed to go crazy with their cost even if the school doesn't justify it. In short tuition will always rise without anything to stop it. The government gives out the money with no oversight up until recently.
2. Because of this constantly flow of money, money gets wasted in many many way. For instance our college sports teams have budgets, and stadiums that rival national sports teams. Imagine if Oxford had their very own Manchester United. That's how money gets spent at a lot of state universes. To make it worse, how much schools spend on their sports team is rising quicker than how they spend on educating students.
3. Because of the cost to go to school there are two big gaps that exist between the college population and the general. The race and income gap. Both gaps are getting bigger. Blacks and Hispanics are very much under represented on U.S. colleges across the country. They also tend to make it too the finish line in much smaller numbers. The even bigger gap is the income gap. Any minority you meet on campus will not be your average minority. They will be in the upper tier of the income distribution for their race. This same thing affects whites. Poor whites do not exist on campuses mostly.Your race and intelligence doesn't matter so much when it comes to education, it's what income bracket you were born into. Because of the cost of college the must intelligent people don't always get to go but the mostly intelligent and wealthy or the least intelligence and wealthy do. That's a problem since our education system should be the great equalizer in our society.
4. To take advantage of the loan money a new monster has shown up. For Profit Universities. These schools are the ones you will will see running ads on television promising careers and degrees in sort amounts of time. The degrees they give are mostly worthless. The cost of their schools are on par with private universities. Their enrollment standards are nonexistent and their students overwhelmingly from the poorest communities. They have enrolled military veterans and suck them dry of their G.I. bills. Their recruiters are told to promise students anything in order to get them to enroll. There was even an instance of the largest for profit school enrolling homeless people in order to get the loan money the government promises. Only recently has there been an attempt by Obama and Congress to stop the for profit industry. It met predictable resistance.
5. The fifth and final issue is with our loan system on the student side. The federal government outsources their federal student loans out to private student loan providers to service. Meaning that federal student loan I mentioned before, the one where the interest is covered and you only have to pay it back after school, is collected by student loan providers. This puts student loan providers in the position of debt gives and debt collectors. Because of the government guaranteeing the loans and the debt collection agency getting a sliver of uncollected debt payments, it is more profitable for the student loan provider for you to default on your student loans. But when you defult on your loans it doesn't mean they disappear. It only means the federal government is going to move in and take away your income tax return or withhold services and other things until the provider gets it's money. Student loans can not be discharged due to bankruptcy.
3. What works about this sytem.
1. Because of how restrictive it is, the system prevents academic inflation like the one the U.K. is suffering.
2. U.S. schools are ranked the best in world by leaps. Our schools are still the goal of students from all over the world. The rest of the world measures their academic standards by our schools. We still suck some of the best and brightest from around the world into our system.
There are other things that work about the system that I will explain later.
