Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6691|Tampa Bay Florida

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6691|Tampa Bay Florida

HITNRUNXX wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

yeah it's all very tragic

I find it hilarious that the Taliban are condemning him. Good one chief...it's not like ya'll don't kill more civies than the U.S. has in the whole 10 year war in two countries, not even counting mutilation.
Again, I can't stand this attitude.

Almost 17,000 Americans were killed by other Americans last year. So I guess that makes the World Trade Center ok, because that was less than 3,000 people.

Pointless murder is pointless murder. It doesn't matter where you live.

And yeah, I understand that they are supposed to be the "bad guys" and we are supposed to be the "good guys" but that actually makes it even worse. You expect the evil people to kill kids. You expect the good guys to save them.
Simple people / simple minds pretending to discuss what no one has ever fully understood.

-Sh1fty- wrote:

One crazy
Pretend for a second that he wasn't crazy.  He was a sane person in a crazy situation.  Mind blown yet?

Last edited by Spearhead (2012-03-15 20:37:22)

-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5475|Ventura, California

Spearhead wrote:

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
Ok now I'm lost. What are you saying I was wrong about this time?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX

-Sh1fty- wrote:

We have one crazy kill 16 people and the whole U.S. military is comprised of evil child murderers.
No-one has said that.

Then again a group of Saudis attack America and all muslims are apparently evil.


I like the double standards too:

A Saudi group kills Americans - Its completely justified to invade Afghanistan and topple the government because they decline to hand over for trial the suspected leader, who is later summarily executed.

An American kills Afghans - It would be completely ridiculous to hand over, or even name, the perpetrator to the Afghans for trial and he's spirited out of the country ASAP.

I wonder if the Taliban have a Seal Team Six? Would there be any complaints if they tracked him down and shot him dead?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada

Spearhead wrote:

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
At what point did I say that this didn't happen in every other conflict? At what point did I say anybody who committed something similar didn't deserve death or worse? You're throwing hypocrite in there to insinuate that there is something hypocritical about what I said when in fact there isn't. At what point did I say this guy was insane? I believe I said he is beyond worth saving and better to be rid of him. Do I give a fuck that "90%" of people may react the same, (which by the way is way off, since most people in the military don't). No, anybody, myself, shifty, or you if we committed these acts are not worth saving, and I would not blame anybody who took us down for it. Fack of with the "he's a solider" defense. Were the people he killed soliders?


How about this situation, I go, become a solider, do some tours, come back, kill a few families, maybe in your neighborhood, would you say "we don't know what he's seen, slap him on the wrist and send him on his way!". Or do you find it acceptable because the people he killed are foreign, in a country that you see as your enemy. Maybe a little hypocrisy there?

Last edited by -Whiteroom- (2012-03-16 00:32:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX

-Whiteroom- wrote:

How about this situation, I go, become a solider, do some tours, come back, kill a few families, maybe in your neighborhood, would you say "we don't know what he's seen, slap him on the wrist and send him on his way!". Or do you find it acceptable because the people he killed are foreign, in a country that you see as your enemy. Maybe a little hypocrisy there?
The Afghans aren't even the enemy, and never were.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-03-16 00:37:33)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada
I'm sure there are a fair few lowings around who don't make a distinction between anyone with brown skin and the enemy. Muslims are the new commies, or hadn't you heard?
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6711|Oklahoma City

-Sh1fty- wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

yeah it's all very tragic

I find it hilarious that the Taliban are condemning him. Good one chief...it's not like ya'll don't kill more civies than the U.S. has in the whole 10 year war in two countries, not even counting mutilation.
Again, I can't stand this attitude.

Almost 17,000 Americans were killed by other Americans last year. So I guess that makes the World Trade Center ok, because that was less than 3,000 people.

Pointless murder is pointless murder. It doesn't matter where you live.

And yeah, I understand that they are supposed to be the "bad guys" and we are supposed to be the "good guys" but that actually makes it even worse. You expect the evil people to kill kids. You expect the good guys to save them.
What was wrong with my attitude? We have one crazy kill 16 people and the whole U.S. military is comprised of evil child murderers. Most Americans have no clue what the "bad guys" do over there, and most of it is just religious shit. How about that famous girl who had her nose and ears cut off for running away from her abusive husband?

I don't get your point about the 17,000 Americans, well I don't get it in context to what I was saying.
Shifty, my point was that you are justifying murder because you don't like the people that were murdered. Or you are at least saying it is no big deal because they are the bad guys.

If we lived in a perfect, crimeless Utopia, THEN we could start trying to "fix" the rest of the world. But I guess those people don't have a right to run their country in the way they believe.

Do they mutilate people? Yes.
Do we? Yes.

Do they murder people? Yes.
Do we? Yes.

Are we better than anyone else on the planet? Think about your answer there.

There are a number of people on this thread that have implied that it is no big deal for these murders to have taken place because hey, the people "over there" are murderers anyway, and we just beat them to it.



Let's do an exercise, and invent a fake country. Now let's pretend we live in that fake country together, and we all have that same superior attitude. Now lets discuss a foreign country, a country known as America.

America has about 17,000 murders every year. They are a bunch of murders and therefore if any of us kill any of them, it isn't a big deal. Afterall, we just beat them to it.

America endorses killing their babies before they are even born. They are evil.

America has about 100,000 rapes every year. They are a bunch of perverts and should be wiped out.

America has about 500,000 robberies every year. They are a bunch of thieves and should not be trusted.

America has around 1,000,000 assaults every year. They don't respect each other, why should we respect them?

America has about 2,500,000 burglaries every year... Be careful around them. They will sneak into your house at night and take everything you own.

America has almost 3,000,000 violent crimes against children, every year. They are monsters.

Only 30% of Americans approve of their government right now. We should free them!




Any country looks bad when you only look at the bad. But here is the thing... Are you willing to look at your bad? Or are you blindly going to just condemn everyone else? I am not saying we shouldn't help other places, but I AM saying we shouldn't consider other places inferior and act like: Oh big deal, we killed a bunch of your kids, you would have just gotten around to it eventually anyway. In fact, I think we freed them from a life of living in your shithole country. Their families should be thanking us. Let's give that guy some treatment and a medal. Then we can redeploy him a few months. Surely it won't happen again, but if it does, big deal... They are sand people Muslim terrorists. They all deserve to die anyway.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

-Sh1fty- wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

yeah it's all very tragic

I find it hilarious that the Taliban are condemning him. Good one chief...it's not like ya'll don't kill more civies than the U.S. has in the whole 10 year war in two countries, not even counting mutilation.
Again, I can't stand this attitude.

Almost 17,000 Americans were killed by other Americans last year. So I guess that makes the World Trade Center ok, because that was less than 3,000 people.

Pointless murder is pointless murder. It doesn't matter where you live.

And yeah, I understand that they are supposed to be the "bad guys" and we are supposed to be the "good guys" but that actually makes it even worse. You expect the evil people to kill kids. You expect the good guys to save them.
What was wrong with my attitude? We have one crazy kill 16 people and the whole U.S. military is comprised of evil child murderers. Most Americans have no clue what the "bad guys" do over there, and most of it is just religious shit. How about that famous girl who had her nose and ears cut off for running away from her abusive husband?

I don't get your point about the 17,000 Americans, well I don't get it in context to what I was saying.
Everyone is a bad guy? Those children were guilty of mutilating women? You really need to get out of the Us vs Them mindset where you just group a whole bunch of people together and label them all either guilty or innocent. Afghans aren't the 'bad guys'. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are 'bad guys'.

Were all Germans guilty of war crimes following WWII or was it a certain subset of the population that was guilty? Should they all have been punished?

The people that were murdered in their sleep didn't deserve it. They are not a justifiable side effect.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6001|...

Spearhead wrote:

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
Millions of service members from various countries went and did their tours in Afgh/Iraq without going on random killing sprees. Whatever war does to a person, I'm pretty sure it doesn't 'make you' kill children for no reason. The guy in question has issues.
inane little opines
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6734|Cambridge, England

Spearhead wrote:

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
Good post.

Its not going to be popular though because people dont like it. Its much easier to think that this one guy was crazy and thats why it happened, rather than the realization that the majority of people would act the same in the same situation.

There are fistfuls of nazi references to back this up but im going to resist that.
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Some people are born into a fucked up life, that they don't even a choice to be in, if they freak out and kill 16 people, do you say "shit happens"? Someone joins the military of their own accord and can't handle it in the end. "Fack, whatever, he saw some shit, so whateves..."
No one here knows exactly what was going on in that area of Afghanistan and no one knows what happened to this guy.

People who have never experienced a traumatic event or been in a warzone always right this stuff off as "this guy must be insane" when in fact his body/mind may have been reacting naturally to external events.  That doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to be an idealist then killing is never right. I have a hunch that you and shifty and me and 90 percent of everyone else in this world would react in the same manner were we in a similar situation.

War is hell and insane and incomprehensible.  The majority of people do not want do not think about it because they don't want to.  Those of us with imagination look at history and conclude that anyone anywhere is capable of anything.  It's always "what were those Nazi's thinking" or "what was going on in this guys head" when in fact we are just as vulnerable to the same forces and would jump at the opportunity to do the same if we were forced to.

If you don't think the same happened in every other conflict in human history then you're deluding yourself.  If you don't want this shit to happen then become a pacifist, otherwise you're a hypocrite imo.
Good post.

Its not going to be popular though because people dont like it. Its much easier to think that this one guy was crazy and thats why it happened, rather than the realization that the majority of people would act the same in the same situation.



There are fistfuls of nazi references to back this up but im going to resist that.
I like that you say that the majority of people, when he was one of how many soldiers over there? It is not a majority thing at all. Even claiming that gives credence to everyone who says that this is representative of the entire military.

Edit: Even if what you are claiming was right, and the vast majority would act the same. Does that make killing sixteen people ok? If so, I defiantly want you and spear on the jury if I ever happen to end up in court for murder.

Last edited by -Whiteroom- (2012-03-16 15:15:32)

mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6656

Read in the paper today that this guy was deployed 3 times in Iraq and was told he wouldn't be redeployed anymore. Then essentially overnight was told that he'd be going to Afghanistan. No wonder he's pissed. Was standing next to his buddy as the dude's leg gets blown off; this was all the day before the rampage. No wonder he snapped.

Trying to get him sentenced to death... wouldn't that make him a martyr?
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6502|so randum
yes and that sucks, but i'm pretty sure most soldiers aren't having an easy time with regards to deployment and watching your mates lose their limbs, but the difference is the other soldiers don't generally go out and murder 16 people. and how would he be a martyr? martyr to what, the 'i'm a fucking psychopath church'?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK
here is the worthless cunt: Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17411009

https://i.imgur.com/ioGMA.jpg

the Afghans are adamant there was more than one though.

Last edited by m3thod (2012-03-16 15:49:46)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK

mtb0minime wrote:

Read in the paper today that this guy was deployed 3 times in Iraq and was told he wouldn't be redeployed anymore. Then essentially overnight was told that he'd be going to Afghanistan. No wonder he's pissed. Was standing next to his buddy as the dude's leg gets blown off; this was all the day before the rampage. No wonder he snapped.

Trying to get him sentenced to death... wouldn't that make him a martyr?
who cares, fuck him off with his fucking head.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6656

I'm thinking he was thinking, "YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS!?"
And if it helps get US out of Afghanistan, then his mission is accomplished.

Last edited by mtb0minime (2012-03-16 15:50:30)

m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK
i don't think he was their in combative role, the reports mentioned he was there supporting the special forces (due to his experience) which accounted for the vast majority of the occupants of that base.  Not that i would really know but do special forces mix with regular army?

Fact is his beef was with his employers for sending him back to a combat only he is a coward and choose to stick a bullet of defenseless heads of children.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6470

mtb0minime wrote:

I'm thinking he was thinking, "YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS!?"
And if it helps get US out of Afghanistan, then his mission is accomplished.
"YOU DON'T FEED A STRANGER IN THE ALPS"
jsnipy
...
+3,276|6524|...

they should turn him over
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6107|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are 'bad guys'.
Even the Taliban aren't necessarily 'the bad guys', they're a nasty Islamic extremist organisation and a despotic form of government, but many dumb farm boys will have signed up to defend their idea of self-determination from foreign aggressors, they've seen friends and relatives slaughtered which is then laughed of as 'collateral' or 'its a warzone, shit happens dood'. Many of them will be no smarter or better educated than Sh1fty, he wants to join the Marines to be badass, they'll want to join the Taliban to be badass, each by default becomes the other's 'enemy', there is no intelligence or logic to any of it and using terms like 'bad guys' is weak.

The relatives of those killed by this soldier are threatening to join the Taliban in response, does that make them 'the bad guys'?

mtb0minime wrote:

Read in the paper today that this guy was deployed 3 times in Iraq and was told he wouldn't be redeployed anymore. Then essentially overnight was told that he'd be going to Afghanistan. No wonder he's pissed. Was standing next to his buddy as the dude's leg gets blown off; this was all the day before the rampage. No wonder he snapped.
Plenty of people 'snap', there is help available to them, no need to creep into someone's house and shoot children in the head.
Trying to get him sentenced to death... wouldn't that make him a martyr?
Not really, no, just crystallise in a few people's minds that slaughtering women and children because you've had a bad day will get YOU killed.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-03-16 16:14:14)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6656

I'm not being his apologist btw. Just passing on what I read about him.

Though I do hope crap like this gets us out of there quicker.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6673|UK
its been confirmed he was boozing on the evening before the attack.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6660|BC, Canada

m3thod wrote:

its been confirmed he was boozing on the evening before the attack.
But he is a solider, that makes it ok method! Jeez, we've been over this.
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6150|'straya
Karzai seems pretty desperate to get the ISAF out of Afghanistan. Interesting, because as soon as the ISAF leave the Taliban will retake control of Afghanistan. I give his government a 10% chance of actually making it a year without the ISAF.

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