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2011-10-07 03:32:38
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

The article said "dealing with reconciliation" not "actually conducting negotiations" - which would typically be a small group.
While the war fighting side has the whole Pentagon team to fall back on I'll bet the reconciliation side has barely a few room-fullls.
This statement shows the flawed foundations of your position: You think those in the Pentagon want the war to continue. You truly do not understand the mind of the military person--at all.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-07 03:36:41
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
Those who are running the war-fighting, not necessarily those pro-war.

If you give a man many men with hammers typically he'll send them out looking for nails.
I'm confident I'm right in saying the reconciliation part of the system is grossly under-resourced compared with the military side.

As we know, if you send thousands of soldiers into a country without a plan chances are you're going to end up with a never-ending war.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-10-07 03:37:40)

Fuck Israel
2011-10-07 03:38:16
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6256|...
The US and many others wanted the Haqqanis to leave their jihad and take part in the government. Several meetings were held to discuss these subjects. You want the definition of negotiations?

Negotiation is a dialogue between two or more people or parties, intended to reach an understanding, resolve point of difference, or gain advantage in outcome of dialogue, to produce an agreement upon courses of action, to bargain for individual or collective advantage, to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests of two people/parties involved in negotiation process. Negotiation is a process where each party involved in negotiating tries to gain an advantage for themselves by the end of the process. Negotiation is intended to aim at compromise.
inane little opines
2011-10-07 03:40:03
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
I'm well aware what negotiation is, and its different from meeting to find out what the other sides goals are.
Its a precursor to negotiation, not negotiation itself.
Fuck Israel
2011-10-07 03:40:19
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Those who are running the war-fighting, not necessarily those pro-war.

If you give a man many men with hammers typically he'll send them out looking for nails.
I'm confident I'm right in saying the reconciliation part of the system is grossly under-resourced compared with the military side.
I've been there, with those "running the war-fighting." They don't want the war to continue on any longer than necessary, either. Because it means people getting maimed and killed, resources getting burned away that could be used elsewhere, and focus taken away from other problem areas.

If State Dept knew what they wanted/needed, they'd get the resources. The problem is, they are terrible at resource estimation.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-07 03:40:21
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6256|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

Those who are running the war-fighting, not necessarily those pro-war.

If you give a man many men with hammers typically he'll send them out looking for nails.
I'm confident I'm right in saying the reconciliation part of the system is grossly under-resourced compared with the military side.

As we know, if you send thousands of soldiers into a country without a plan chances are you're going to end up with a never-ending war.
Lemme guess, dick cheney haliburton hurrdurr.

I guess everyone in congress, the senate, NATO and foreign parliaments like those of the british have vested interest in Haliburton.

How about you prove it?
inane little opines
2011-10-07 05:30:33
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
I don't need to prove it, facts on the ground suggest it strongly.

That the military are running the 'nation-building' show speaks for itself.

FEOS wrote:

If State Dept knew what they wanted/needed, they'd get the resources. The problem is, they are terrible at resource estimation.
Ten years on, there still is no thought-out detailed plan? Crikey.
Maybe they're still using this....
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvrAZtJ5hes/SyBkTv_LoJI/AAAAAAAAAls/oO4Oj5bxy9o/s400/Afghanistan+plan.bmp
Fuck Israel
2011-10-07 23:31:13
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't need to prove it, facts on the ground suggest it strongly.
Facts on the ground are:

Democratically-elected representative government for the first time in how long?

Growing competence in Afghan armed forces.

Increased education and opportunities for all citizens (especially females).

Compared to what was there before? That's pretty damned good progress, actually.

Dilbert_X wrote:

That the military are running the 'nation-building' show speaks for itself.

FEOS wrote:

If State Dept knew what they wanted/needed, they'd get the resources. The problem is, they are terrible at resource estimation.
Ten years on, there still is no thought-out detailed plan? Crikey.
And what, pray tell, makes you think either of the two things you've stated here are true?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Maybe they're still using this....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvrAZtJ5hes/SyBkTv_LoJI/AAAAAAAAAls/oO4Oj5bxy9o/s400/Afghanistan+plan.bmp
A graphic that shows the complexity of geopolitics? Why on earth would anyone want people to have an understanding of that?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-09 07:03:20
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6256|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't need to prove it, facts on the ground suggest it strongly.
Which 'facts'?
inane little opines
2011-10-10 01:45:20
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
10 years on, Afghanistan is not measurably forward.

Taliban attacks are higher than ever.

Opium crop looks set to be one of the best in history - I suppose maybe that means they're adopting capitalism?

War seems to be spreading into Pakistan - a genius move if ever there was one.....
Fuck Israel
2011-10-10 03:30:37
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

10 years on, Afghanistan is not measurably forward.

Taliban attacks are higher than ever.

Opium crop looks set to be one of the best in history - I suppose maybe that means they're adopting capitalism?

War seems to be spreading into Pakistan - a genius move if ever there was one.....
You must be taking some of that opium byproduct, Dilbert.

SOURCE
26 August 2008 - Released today, UNODC's Afghanistan Opium Survey 2008 shows a 19 per cent decrease in opium cultivation to 157,000 hectares, compared to the record harvest of 193,000 in 2007.
SOURCE
2 September 2009 - Opium poppy cultivation in Afghanistan is down 22 per cent, opium production is down 10 per cent, while prices are at a 10-year low. The number of opium poppy-free provinces has increased from 18 to 20 out of a total number of 34, and more drugs are being seized as a result of more robust counter-narcotics operations by Afghan and NATO forces.
SOURCE
10 February 2010 –
The cultivation of opium – raw material for the world's deadliest drug, heroin – in Afghanistan could drop this year, the head of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) said today, as bad weather is forecast during the country's current growing season.

Productivity could stay stable or fall, continuing a trend since 2007 which has seen a one-third drop in production, according to a new UNODC study.
Compare Afghanistan of today to the Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Even with the attacks, there are fewer people being killed.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-10 04:14:56
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 19% down on the best year on record - 2007, also under coalition military control of the country - is still likely to be one of the best years on record.

Wow, seems I'm right

https://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2009/10/21/16/20091021_AFGHAN_OPIUM.large.prod_affiliate.91.jpg

8,000 tonnes x 80% = 6,400 tonnes - 4th best year in the history of Afghanistan.

According to your own sources:

The price is low = demand is being met

Reduced production is due to the weather

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-10-10 04:19:38)

Fuck Israel
2011-10-10 04:27:38
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Taliban beheaded people for growing poppies...would you like the coalition to take the same approach? I'm sure it would cut back dramatically on poppy growth.

Now the Taliban encourage poppy growth to fund their insurgency. Such good people, those Talibs.

Weather is one factor, not the only, or even the primary, factor.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-10 04:31:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Taliban beheaded people for growing poppies...would you like the coalition to take the same approach? I'm sure it would cut back dramatically on poppy growth.
Thats not the point now is it?

If Afghanistan were such a great success would they be growing opium?
Or is it just free-market capitalism backfiring?
Fuck Israel
2011-10-10 04:34:28
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Taliban beheaded people for growing poppies...would you like the coalition to take the same approach? I'm sure it would cut back dramatically on poppy growth.
Thats not the point now is it?

If Afghanistan were such a great success would they be growing opium?
Or is it just free-market capitalism backfiring?
Opium farming is the only metric of whether Afghanistan is better today than it was under Taliban rule?

Is that seriously what you think?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-10 04:40:23
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX

Dilbert_X wrote:

Taliban attacks are higher than ever.

Opium crop looks set to be one of the best in history - I suppose maybe that means they're adopting capitalism?

War seems to be spreading into Pakistan - a genius move if ever there was one.....
Fuck Israel
2011-10-10 04:45:45
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6668|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Taliban attacks are higher than ever.

Opium crop looks set to be one of the best in history - I suppose maybe that means they're adopting capitalism?

War seems to be spreading into Pakistan - a genius move if ever there was one.....
Already pointed out that deaths are lower than they were under the Taliban, and even less random.

Plus, people are allowed to work and get an education without being beheaded.

And there's an economy (beyond opium).

And a representative, relatively functional government that gets better every day, along with fairly competent security forces (also improving).

But go ahead and ignore that stuff. There's a couple of negative things still going on.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-10 05:01:13
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6363|eXtreme to the maX
Its better in some ways, but it'll slip back quick enough.

Saudi Arabia is changing about as quickly, it'll still take 2-3 generations.
Fuck Israel
2011-10-10 07:32:54
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6754

Dilbert_X wrote:

Saudi Arabia is changing about as quickly, it'll still take 2-3 generations.
the saudis are going to get more fundamental when the king passes away. he made ten million barrels of extra oil available to the u.s. in the days after nine eleven, fearing reprisals from the terrorist attacks. they hired a publicity firm shortly after too, to help downplay bin laden's ties to the kingdom, and the fact that not only were most of the hijackers saudi, but almost all of their entry visas were granted from applications made in saudi arabia.
2011-10-10 07:36:16
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6973

13urnzz wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Saudi Arabia is changing about as quickly, it'll still take 2-3 generations.
the saudis are going to get more fundamental when the king passes away. he made ten million barrels of extra oil available to the u.s. in the days after nine eleven, fearing reprisals from the terrorist attacks. they hired a publicity firm shortly after too, to help downplay bin laden's ties to the kingdom, and the fact that not only were most of the hijackers saudi, but almost all of their entry visas were granted from applications made in saudi arabia.
entry visas are done by the state department not the home country, don't think thats much of an issue compared to them being saudi.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-10-10 07:38:03
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6754

Cybargs wrote:

entry visas are done by the state department not the home country, don't think thats much of an issue compared to them being saudi.
ok, let me ask this - would it be easier to obtain a visa from Yemen, or Saudi Arabia (pre-9/11)?
2011-10-10 13:19:23
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7029|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Taliban beheaded people for growing poppies...would you like the coalition to take the same approach? I'm sure it would cut back dramatically on poppy growth.
Thats not the point now is it?

If Afghanistan were such a great success would they be growing opium?
Or is it just free-market capitalism backfiring?
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the insurgency needs money.
2011-10-10 13:50:55
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6007|شمال

FEOS wrote:

Taliban beheaded people for growing poppies...
they took dat shit srs
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-10 21:43:58
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6972|US
Well, yeah, they were under international pressure, and had a huge stockpiled surplus.

They banned production for a while, reduced international diplomatic pressures, and helped jack up global prices.  They made bank by selling their surplus.  Pretty F'ing brilliant, if you ask me.
...except for that whole coalition invasion bit that toppled them from government.
2011-10-11 00:30:51
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6235|Blue Mountain State

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't need to prove it, facts on the ground suggest it strongly.
hahaha. What unit are you with?
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey

 

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