Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Who's the ghost mod?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Also, your country has roughly the same population as my State.
That has nothing do with this topic.
Sure it does. What works for a nation of 21 million would not necessarily work for a nation of 350 million.
No shit, I made that argument a dozen times on this forum for various things. It just seems you threw that out there rather than argue against any of the points DF posted.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


That has nothing do with this topic.
Sure it does. What works for a nation of 21 million would not necessarily work for a nation of 350 million.
No shit, I made that argument a dozen times on this forum for various things. It just seems you threw that out there rather than argue against any of the points DF posted.
I'm not arguing with a wikipedia article. If he wants to come up with his own argument, I'll argue against that. He clearly doesn't understand his own viewpoint so me expending any energy in reply would be a waste of my time.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5229|foggy bottom
what would be a constructive use of your time on this forum then?
Tu Stultus Es
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6641|UK
bashing noobs
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

Well, posting a wikipedia article that lays out the benefits of something rather than typing them out yourself is okay. I could explain in my own words why Subutai was one of the greatest military leaders of all time but if posting some text from a wiki article saves me the time and puts my argument out better than why not use it? I already know the info and we're all just regurgitating something we've heard before anyway.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

I'm derailing my own thread.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
People are generally apathetic in American elections because they simply don't care. That won't change if they are forcibly led to the polls on pain of fine or imprisonment. All a system like that creates is populism, and populism is the death of intellectual discourse. Why? Because people generally don't have a clue when it comes to economics, or social issues. They'll vote for the guy that puts on the best ad campaign.

Besides, America is so sectionalized that there could never be a single person or party that could possibly represent the majority adequately. Why should I be forced to vote at all when the two primary parties don't appeal to me? So I can waste my time going to the polling station on election day to cast a third party vote? If I feel like doing that, I will, if I don't, I shouldn't be compelled to do so.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13rin
Member
+977|6449
You you want a parliamentary setup?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

I know. I don't like compulsory voting either.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
I'm fine with the current system. It's broken in a lovely way where nothing gets done for years at a time. Considering everything that comes out of Washington is a steaming pile of dung, we as a country are better off that way. Lord help us if the system was ever streamlined to 'make it work'.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13rin
Member
+977|6449
hmmm.. So 'stream lining' would be to add more parties?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5555

Jay wrote:

I'm fine with the current system. It's broken in a lovely way where nothing gets done for years at a time. Considering everything that comes out of Washington is a steaming pile of dung, we as a country are better off that way. Lord help us if the system was ever streamlined to 'make it work'.
I disagree.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

13rin wrote:

hmmm.. So 'stream lining' would be to add more parties?
No, I've seen arguments to dispose of the supermajority necessary to override a filibuster, among other crap. You can't add more parties, that has to come from the bottom, not the top. The problem with third parties is that they are always co-opted and absorbed into the other two, mostly because their limited agendas allow it to happen easily. Anti-tax party forming? Republicans to the rescue. Etc.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

I'm fine with the current system. It's broken in a lovely way where nothing gets done for years at a time. Considering everything that comes out of Washington is a steaming pile of dung, we as a country are better off that way. Lord help us if the system was ever streamlined to 'make it work'.
I disagree.
What legislation that has passed in the past ten years do you like?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Actually, the biggest problem with any third party starting up is the kind of voter that it inherently attracts. They tend to be the headstrong type that aren't willing to compromise or deviate from their own political agenda. C'est la vie.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


Sure it does. What works for a nation of 21 million would not necessarily work for a nation of 350 million.
No shit, I made that argument a dozen times on this forum for various things. It just seems you threw that out there rather than argue against any of the points DF posted.
I'm not arguing with a wikipedia article. If he wants to come up with his own argument, I'll argue against that. He clearly doesn't understand his own viewpoint so me expending any energy in reply would be a waste of my time.
It legitimises the government, which is good for effective govt, and ensures the govt is truly representative of the peoples wishes - whoever and whatever they are.

It also means well-funded or energetic one-eyed loon activists can't swing the vote so much through voter registration drives and busing select groups  to vote.

Also means good-ole-boy cops can't prevent certain groups voting either.

Plus IIRC there is transferable voting/proportional voting so minority parties get a look-in and often hold some influence.

Its not perfect but works for me.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
JahManRed
wank
+646|6597|IRELAND

It amazes me that governments continue to stick with the current unrestricted capitalist model. It clearly isn't working.

More people rent in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. In fact their are more renters than owner occupiers. The same country who's economy is keeping whole Euro Zone afloat. The same country who's economy is growing faster than the USA and UK's. So lets not copy this successful model, lets do the opposite and strong arm people into buying stuff they cant afford. Sorry, but this is sub prime mortgages on crack.

So after the biggest abuse of the mortgage system ever, the proposal is to force people into borrowing and buying a house so you are effectively a full citizen. Borrow above your means, get the vote. Cant pay your mortgage because you loose your job because the company you work for laid you off because they cant compete with China on the free market and you have your right to vote taken away?

The banks wont give out a mortgage without huge deposits. So this means only a certain section of the country who have enough money can vote. Then they continue to vote in whoever promises to make the rich richer and fuck everyone else.

This tea party really are a bunch of fucking nut jobs. They might as well go take a dump and wipe their arses with the constitution.

Last edited by JahManRed (2011-07-28 03:32:54)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

JahManRed wrote:

It amazes me that governments continue to stick with the current unrestricted capitalist model. It clearly isn't working.

More people rent in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. In fact their are more renters than owner occupiers. The same country who's economy is keeping whole Euro Zone afloat. The same country who's economy is growing faster than the USA and UK's. So lets not copy this successful model, lets do the opposite and strong arm people into buying stuff they cant afford. Sorry, but this is sub prime mortgages on crack.

So after the biggest abuse of the mortgage system ever, the proposal is to force people into borrowing and buying a house so you are effectively a full citizen. Borrow above your means, get the vote. Cant pay your mortgage because you loose your job because the company you work for laid you off because they cant compete with China on the free market and you have your right to vote taken away?

The banks wont give out a mortgage without huge deposits. So this means only a certain section of the country who have enough money can vote. Then they continue to vote in whoever promises to make the rich richer and fuck everyone else.

This tea party really are a bunch of fucking nut jobs. They might as well go take a dump and wipe their arses with the constitution.
Your post doesn't make any sense.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

It amazes me that governments continue to stick with the current unrestricted capitalist model. It clearly isn't working.

More people rent in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. In fact their are more renters than owner occupiers. The same country who's economy is keeping whole Euro Zone afloat. The same country who's economy is growing faster than the USA and UK's. So lets not copy this successful model, lets do the opposite and strong arm people into buying stuff they cant afford. Sorry, but this is sub prime mortgages on crack.

So after the biggest abuse of the mortgage system ever, the proposal is to force people into borrowing and buying a house so you are effectively a full citizen. Borrow above your means, get the vote. Cant pay your mortgage because you loose your job because the company you work for laid you off because they cant compete with China on the free market and you have your right to vote taken away?

The banks wont give out a mortgage without huge deposits. So this means only a certain section of the country who have enough money can vote. Then they continue to vote in whoever promises to make the rich richer and fuck everyone else.

This tea party really are a bunch of fucking nut jobs. They might as well go take a dump and wipe their arses with the constitution.
Your post doesn't make any sense.
It made sense, you just didn't get it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-07-28 05:33:14)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6644|Canberra, AUS

Jay wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

It amazes me that governments continue to stick with the current unrestricted capitalist model. It clearly isn't working.

More people rent in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. In fact their are more renters than owner occupiers. The same country who's economy is keeping whole Euro Zone afloat. The same country who's economy is growing faster than the USA and UK's. So lets not copy this successful model, lets do the opposite and strong arm people into buying stuff they cant afford. Sorry, but this is sub prime mortgages on crack.

So after the biggest abuse of the mortgage system ever, the proposal is to force people into borrowing and buying a house so you are effectively a full citizen. Borrow above your means, get the vote. Cant pay your mortgage because you loose your job because the company you work for laid you off because they cant compete with China on the free market and you have your right to vote taken away?

The banks wont give out a mortgage without huge deposits. So this means only a certain section of the country who have enough money can vote. Then they continue to vote in whoever promises to make the rich richer and fuck everyone else.

This tea party really are a bunch of fucking nut jobs. They might as well go take a dump and wipe their arses with the constitution.
Your post doesn't make any sense.
How so?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Spark wrote:

Jay wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

It amazes me that governments continue to stick with the current unrestricted capitalist model. It clearly isn't working.

More people rent in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. In fact their are more renters than owner occupiers. The same country who's economy is keeping whole Euro Zone afloat. The same country who's economy is growing faster than the USA and UK's. So lets not copy this successful model, lets do the opposite and strong arm people into buying stuff they cant afford. Sorry, but this is sub prime mortgages on crack.

So after the biggest abuse of the mortgage system ever, the proposal is to force people into borrowing and buying a house so you are effectively a full citizen. Borrow above your means, get the vote. Cant pay your mortgage because you loose your job because the company you work for laid you off because they cant compete with China on the free market and you have your right to vote taken away?

The banks wont give out a mortgage without huge deposits. So this means only a certain section of the country who have enough money can vote. Then they continue to vote in whoever promises to make the rich richer and fuck everyone else.

This tea party really are a bunch of fucking nut jobs. They might as well go take a dump and wipe their arses with the constitution.
Your post doesn't make any sense.
How so?
Because home ownership rates in Germany have nothing at all to do with their economic model. Nor does it have anything at all to do with ours. Good for them, they have more renters. They also have more people (593) per square mile than the US does (83). People in cities rent, they do not own. More people in Germany live in cities than do Americans. Thus, the argument is invalid.

No one is forced to buy a home in America. No one. Let me repeat that once again. No one is forced to buy a home in America. Oh, the government may provide perks for home ownership (like income tax write-offs for interest paid servicing a mortgage), but no one has a gun to our heads forcing us to buy a home or else. Once again, the argument is invalid.

Banks won't give out loans without huge deposits? News to me. But maybe they learned a lesson from the prior decade when they were offering no-money-down mortgages which fueled the bubble which led to the economic meltdown. And so what if they did require a huge deposit? You're borrowing money from them. They could do whatever the fuck they want because no one is forcing you to take that loan. If you really want to buy a house, save your pennies, invest them, and pay cash. No loan required. No bank involved. Another invalid argument.

Yeah, the tea party are a bunch of nut jobs because he doesn't understand what they are talking about. His entire post was one based on emotion, not actual knowledge of events or the situation. Is the idea of property owners being the only voters rather stupid? Yes. But he didn't give a single valid reason why.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Narupug
Fodder Mostly
+150|5566|Vacationland
Why don't we stop beating around the bush, just accept that money runs our political system and just pass an amendment to the constitution that says only people making more than 100,000 dollars a year can vote.

Last edited by Narupug (2011-07-28 19:47:34)

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard