VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6681|Southern California

Narupug wrote:

When we use the most common way of making hydrogen, from fossil fuels, it's impact on our dependence on oil and greenhouse gases is the same as using gasoline for cars.  Now you can also get electricity from solar panels and use that to perform electrolysis on water to get the hydrogen, this method is much cleaner and eco friendly.
Fossil fuels burned in cars is one of the worst ways to get energy from them though... its just that its the most convent. Two main reasons: maintenance and driveablity.

A lot can be done to clean up the emissions from burning fossil fuels... But all the controls and gismos in the world won't help if they are not working because the have not been maintained. What percentage of cars on the road have all systems operating flawlessly? I bet less then half. Its much easier for a centralized plant ran by professionals to keep up on maintenance then millions of unmotivated/lazy/cheap people.

Car engines are also less efficient, Not only because they have to lug around the weight of all those emissions controls, but also because they have to function well over a wide range of RPMs. Engines only work well at a certain RPM, compromises in efficiency at a given RPM need to be made in order to gain efficiency and power over the whole functioning range of the engine. In a centralized plant the engines can have their efficiency tuned for one RPM, and that RPM can be maintained to produce an appreciably higher amount of energy then any car engine.

And if the drive train in a hydrogen car can be made lighter then a conventional gasoline drive train the vehicle its self can be more efficient, so that even the energy produce by the gasoline can be use more efficiently.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5875

Harmor wrote:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3143/sahimo8.jpg

vs. a Smart Car:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4277/smartcarjeff.jpg


Both are death traps.  But the Smart Car only gets 33/41 mpg...less than a Toyota Prius that gets 51/48 mpg.
How fast does it go? I mean it's amll and has kinda sporty look. It is goes really fast it would justify the price tag and size.
VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6681|Southern California

Macbeth wrote:

Harmor wrote:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3143/sahimo8.jpg

vs. a Smart Car:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4277/smartcarjeff.jpg


Both are death traps.  But the Smart Car only gets 33/41 mpg...less than a Toyota Prius that gets 51/48 mpg.
How fast does it go? I mean it's amll and has kinda sporty look. It is goes really fast it would justify the price tag and size.
Probably ~50mph, taking a minute or two to get there.

thats what people don't get about these super mileage cars. Part of it is not going too fast as drag is a speed squard thing, and part of it is that the car almost does not accelerate because that is bad for MPG.
Narupug
Fodder Mostly
+150|5886|Vacationland

VicktorVauhn wrote:

Narupug wrote:

When we use the most common way of making hydrogen, from fossil fuels, it's impact on our dependence on oil and greenhouse gases is the same as using gasoline for cars.  Now you can also get electricity from solar panels and use that to perform electrolysis on water to get the hydrogen, this method is much cleaner and eco friendly.
Fossil fuels burned in cars is one of the worst ways to get energy from them though... its just that its the most convent. Two main reasons: maintenance and driveablity.

A lot can be done to clean up the emissions from burning fossil fuels... But all the controls and gismos in the world won't help if they are not working because the have not been maintained. What percentage of cars on the road have all systems operating flawlessly? I bet less then half. Its much easier for a centralized plant ran by professionals to keep up on maintenance then millions of unmotivated/lazy/cheap people.

Car engines are also less efficient, Not only because they have to lug around the weight of all those emissions controls, but also because they have to function well over a wide range of RPMs. Engines only work well at a certain RPM, compromises in efficiency at a given RPM need to be made in order to gain efficiency and power over the whole functioning range of the engine. In a centralized plant the engines can have their efficiency tuned for one RPM, and that RPM can be maintained to produce an appreciably higher amount of energy then any car engine.

And if the drive train in a hydrogen car can be made lighter then a conventional gasoline drive train the vehicle its self can be more efficient, so that even the energy produce by the gasoline can be use more efficiently.
I hate our current cars, but I was saying that just to switch to hydrogen isn't enough.  We must also clean up the way we GET the fuel, thus my last sentence
VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6681|Southern California
yeah, but that just doesn't work. There is only so much energy coming from the sun, and regardless of efficiency only so much that can be reclaimed from a square foot. Solar is a good, but its not enough to be a sole provider.
Narupug
Fodder Mostly
+150|5886|Vacationland

VicktorVauhn wrote:

yeah, but that just doesn't work. There is only so much energy coming from the sun, and regardless of efficiency only so much that can be reclaimed from a square foot. Solar is a good, but its not enough to be a sole provider.
Then combine it with wind, wave, a little nuclear and geothermal and tell me if that's enough
Just a little background on the power of the sun
http://www.nineplanets.org/sol.html

Last edited by Narupug (2009-07-07 22:13:28)

VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6681|Southern California

Narupug wrote:

http://www.nineplanets.org/sol.html
Little info on chipmunks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipmunk

Found it about as relevant as the article you linked to.


Regardless of all that info on the sun, only about 429.2 BTU can be reclaimed from that per hour per square foot. How much of the planet are you planning on covering with solar cells?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6996|67.222.138.85

Spark wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Stubbee wrote:

By weight, hydrogen has the highest energy density. The problem is, as FM says, is getting to be a liquid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
...but who gives a fuck about weight when we're talking about cars. The problem is getting around having a tank that is the size of the car.
...which is highly explosive.
Again, not a problem compared to the tank of gasoline you carry around now. That can be engineered around, to the point where you have a lot more trouble keeping the squishy bags of mostly water in the front seats in one piece than keeping the fuel from exploding when one solid object hits another at 70 mph.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6890|132 and Bush

Have you guys got an answer yet.. I'm getting impatient.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6039|شمال
Very nice from the turks.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7099|Nårvei

You guys know that gasoline driven engines first was called explosion engines?

Some of the latest on Hydrogen tech research

http://www.chiefengineer.org/content/co … t/2253.htm
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6964|Canberra, AUS

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Spark wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


...but who gives a fuck about weight when we're talking about cars. The problem is getting around having a tank that is the size of the car.
...which is highly explosive.
Again, not a problem compared to the tank of gasoline you carry around now. That can be engineered around, to the point where you have a lot more trouble keeping the squishy bags of mostly water in the front seats in one piece than keeping the fuel from exploding when one solid object hits another at 70 mph.
Except gasoline is already liquiefied and thus not premixed with air nearly as thoroughly... but I see your point (it can't be hard to remove air from the tank)

Although that much hydrogen would do more than just explode... it would probably blow cars off the road some distance away.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6681|Southern California
^^ he has a point. Add to that that liquid gasoline doesn't actually burn, its vapor does... and liquid gasoline in standard conditions changes to a gas much more slowly then liquid hydrogen.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,057|7061|PNW

Too bloody small.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6954|NT, like Mick Dundee

VicktorVauhn wrote:

Narupug wrote:

http://www.nineplanets.org/sol.html
Regardless of all that info on the sun, only about 429.2 BTU can be reclaimed from that per hour per square foot. How much of the planet are you planning on covering with solar cells?
I nominate WA. Except for the Southwest corner and the Kimberly.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,057|7061|PNW

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

squishy bags of mostly water
Trekkie.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6910|London, England

Poseidon wrote:

Getting hit by a semi in that would be pretty painful.
And therein lies the problem of the US motor industry. Everyone wants to buy something where they can survive getting hit by an 18 wheeler. lol. I mean do you guys really suck that much at driving, or are your truck drivers really that hapless

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-07-08 05:10:10)

Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6283|Truthistan

Mekstizzle wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Getting hit by a semi in that would be pretty painful.
And therein lies the problem of the US motor industry. Everyone wants to buy something where they can survive getting hit by an 18 wheeler. lol. I mean do you guys really suck that much at driving, or are your truck drivers really that hapless
Its the later... trucks are driven into the ground by owner/operators trying to make a buck and you get things like this.



What would happen to a driver or owner of a truck in Europe if this happened, fine? jail?






On the hydrogen issue, you need a lot of electricity to make hydrogen or some nasty chemical reactions. The electric car is much closer to production and its better to put the money into getting that done first. The big three automakers held out electric vehicles in the 1990s then killed that program while telling us that the future was with the hybrid technology, then the US automaters wanted to kill hybrid tech and collect more govt money with dreams of hydrogen tech. You see the big three were all about getting govt money to develop tech without bringing it to market. they just wanted to keep shoveling the same old gas engine tech, hell they don't even want to deal with small car diesels in the US. Anyway, the Japanese changed the equation when they got scared of hybrid tech over taking them so they developed up their own hybrids and actually brought them to market. That screwed over the big three who are now in a catch up game with stupid hybrid SUVs and other stupid junk. Competition is a good thing and I can't wait to see the new plug in hybrids on the road.
Sydney
2λчиэλ
+783|7133|Reykjavík, Iceland.
It may be 1300 mpg, but how much is a gallon of hydrogen worth?

edit: 18 wheelers are nothing, I saw a 22 wheeler at work the other day

Last edited by Sydney (2009-07-08 13:53:03)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6996|67.222.138.85
The hydrogen doesn't explode, it just goes up in a flash. There has to be a pressure build up for an explosion, something you most likely wouldn't get with such a low density gas.

Look, my dad fielded a lot of questions about the safety of various alternative transportation solutions in relation to gas powered automobiles through converting his electric car. The fact is you are carrying around some very nasty stuff under your seat (that is a liquid and is only flammable in a gaseous state, but it is very volatile as well) and hardly ever do people die from the kinds of gasoline powered explosions you see in the movies. It's not difficult to build and regulate the building of sufficiently reinforced tanks to house just about any kind of hazardous material to the point where the two ton brick you just ran into head on in your two ton brick is a much bigger factor in your chances of survival.

and unnamednewbie13 is fucking legit

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