The 65 mpg Ford - a car the U.S. Can't Have

2008-09-23 05:41:35

#51

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,810|6114|eXtreme to the maX

The Big Three know that small cars are the money maker for the time being. Trucks have stopped being the number one seller for the first time ever. They (and foreign makers) are redirecting resources from truck assembly to medium/small car assembly. The facts of where the companies are going seem to disprove your contention.

Its incredibly hard to make money on small cars.
I worked on the previous Fiesta, I know.
Ford America just doesn't understand the diesel market, not in Europe or America.

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

2008-09-23 06:15:13

#52

Rosse_modest: Member; +76|6784|Antwerp, Flanders

Dilbert_X wrote:
Diesel is cheaper to produce and not as polluting.
Litre for litre, Diesel produces more CO2 and more particulates.

If you look at distance travelled, though, diesel spews out less CO2 than gasoline. But it does indeed produce more other undesirable goodies. Gasoline is without a doubt the 'cleaner' of the two fuels, at the cost of a possibly higher greenhouse effect. You're basically choosing between greenhouse and lower air quality.

2008-09-23 06:24:39

#53

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,810|6114|eXtreme to the maX

Its complicated and arguable.
Overall diesel is more efficient in terms of CO2, petrol could be much more efficient than it is now if we weren't all stuck with catalytic converters to suit California.
Emissions from petrol vehicles - apart from C02 and unburnt hydrocarbons - break down relatively quickly.
Particulates barely break down at all.

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

2008-09-23 06:28:20

#54

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6231|Escea

Sydney wrote:
What's with that?

Diesel is cheaper to produce and not as polluting.

I thought diesel put worse fumes into the air than petrol?

2008-09-23 06:35:31

#55

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,810|6114|eXtreme to the maX

I thought diesel put worse fumes into the air than petrol?

I'm not an expert, depends on how you measure it, and depends on whether you think leukemia is worse than lung cancer for example.

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

2008-09-23 07:05:09

#56

Agent_Dung_Bomb: Member; +302|6744|Salt Lake City

The Volt is ugly. What they showed you in the car shows was only a concept design. The actual product is butt ugly.

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/?s … chevy_volt

2008-09-23 07:14:22

#57

Bertster7: Confused Pothead; +1,101|6590|SE London

Poseidon wrote:
topal63 wrote:
Bell wrote:

Somehow I dont think this is anywhere near the volts price range.
The volt is good for 40 miles on an electric charge.

This car (ford) gets 65 miles per gallon.
Considering most people drive less than 40 miles to work and back every day, that's good. Means you don't have to pay for gas AT ALL. Or, very few times.

I bet if you calculated it, it'd cost you less (depending on your job location) to own a Volt than it is to own this POS.

No one has been considering the fact that the Volt is going to use a heck of a lot of power. Low fuel bills, yes - but watch what happens to the electric bills. The amount of power you need, even with a high efficiency engine, to move a car 40 miles is quite substantial and that amount of power is going to be a big expense.

FEOS wrote:
Did no one check the cost of diesel compared to unleaded in the US? It's the most expensive fuel. That's the business model Ford didn't think would work.

Diesel is the most expensive fuel everywhere in the world. Your point?

Diesel is also more cost effective than petrol since you get much further off a tank (which is why all the Le Mans cars now use it). Of course fuel in the US tends to be of far lower grade than is sold in Europe, so the price gap may be bigger (also there's probably lower demand for it over there since it seems not to be so widely used).

2008-09-23 07:29:34

#58

Monkey Spanker: Show it to the nice monkey.; +284|6260|England

https://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/smuder201/volt.jpg

That actually looks ok & i'm european, the thing that will let it down will be the build quality as it all ways does in cars from the US, there will be wall to wall cheap nasty plastic everywhere, the manual gear box will be like a wooden spoon stirring cake mixture in large bowl, which is a shame because the car does look good.

Last edited by smuder201 (2008-09-23 07:32:09)

Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime

https://bf3s.com/sigs/f30415b2d1cff840176cce816dc76d89a7929bb0.png

2008-09-23 07:33:22

#59

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6419|'Murka

Bertster7 wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Did no one check the cost of diesel compared to unleaded in the US? It's the most expensive fuel. That's the business model Ford didn't think would work.
Diesel is the most expensive fuel everywhere in the world. Your point?

Diesel is also more cost effective than petrol since you get much further off a tank (which is why all the Le Mans cars now use it). Of course fuel in the US tends to be of far lower grade than is sold in Europe, so the price gap may be bigger (also there's probably lower demand for it over there since it seems not to be so widely used).

I didn't say I agreed with them, I said that was their explanation for why the business model wouldn't work in the US.

There is a huge demand for diesel over here because of the farm equipment, trucks, and industrial equipment that uses it. That's another part of the stigma associated with it over here, tbh. That, and the old-school, black-smoke-belching diesels from the 70s and 80s that failed over here because of their emissions.

I fully realize that automotive diesel (particularly the blends used in Europe) with the higher mileage is a better choice. But I'm in the minority here.

BL: Higher price per gallon + unwarranted stigma = won't sell. Pretty simple.

That may change, but it won't happen overnight and Ford isn't in much of a position to risk that much on something that has proven to be a stinker over and over again in the US market.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-09-23 07:43:57

#60

Bernadictus: Moderator; +1,055|6745

smuder201 wrote:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/ … 1/volt.jpg

That actually looks ok & i'm european, the thing that will let it down will be the build quality as it all ways does in cars from the US, there will be wall to wall cheap nasty plastic everywhere, the manual gear box will be like a wooden spoon stirring cake mixture in large bowl, which is a shame because the car does look good.

German cars > all US cars in quality.

2008-09-23 07:57:49

#61

Monkey Spanker: Show it to the nice monkey.; +284|6260|England

It's a shame really that US car makers are only just realising that Europeans demand a lot for thier money & in todays global market they need all the monies they can get.

Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime

2008-09-23 08:01:36

#62

mr.hrundi: Wurstwassereis; +68|6446|Germany

It would be interesting to see how much energy that Volt needs and how much cheaper that is than diesel or gasoline over long terms. I can't imagine that energy is free in the US.

Could it also be possible that the price of energy will get higher if several thousands of these car are sold?

Last edited by mr.hrundi (2008-09-23 08:02:47)

2008-09-23 09:20:34

#63

Agent_Dung_Bomb: Member; +302|6744|Salt Lake City

Euros and your thinking that all American cars are crap. Well guess what. BMW, Audi, Volvo, VW, and Saab (I know they aren't all German) were among manufacturers exceeding the industry average of 91 problems per 100 vehicles sold. And guess who was above MB in that list...Lincoln. That's right, a Ford beat MB in initial quality rankings.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/200 … lity_N.htm

2008-09-23 12:01:11

#64

Bertster7: Confused Pothead; +1,101|6590|SE London

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Euros and your thinking that all American cars are crap. Well guess what. BMW, Audi, Volvo, VW, and Saab (I know they aren't all German) were among manufacturers exceeding the industry average of 91 problems per 100 vehicles sold. And guess who was above MB in that list...Lincoln. That's right, a Ford beat MB in initial quality rankings.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/200 … lity_N.htm

In many ways I prefer American cars to German ones. American cars often have a bit of character about them - something German cars NEVER have.

Italian cars are by far the most fun. Which is why I like them (and my last two cars have been Italian - before that I had a Ford).

Of course if you have your sensible hat on, you're going to be buying Japanese or possibly German.

2008-09-23 12:05:30

#65

Bertster7: Confused Pothead; +1,101|6590|SE London

FEOS wrote:
Bertster7 wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Did no one check the cost of diesel compared to unleaded in the US? It's the most expensive fuel. That's the business model Ford didn't think would work.
Diesel is the most expensive fuel everywhere in the world. Your point?

Diesel is also more cost effective than petrol since you get much further off a tank (which is why all the Le Mans cars now use it). Of course fuel in the US tends to be of far lower grade than is sold in Europe, so the price gap may be bigger (also there's probably lower demand for it over there since it seems not to be so widely used).
I didn't say I agreed with them, I said that was their explanation for why the business model wouldn't work in the US.

There is a huge demand for diesel over here because of the farm equipment, trucks, and industrial equipment that uses it. That's another part of the stigma associated with it over here, tbh. That, and the old-school, black-smoke-belching diesels from the 70s and 80s that failed over here because of their emissions.

I fully realize that automotive diesel (particularly the blends used in Europe) with the higher mileage is a better choice. But I'm in the minority here.

BL: Higher price per gallon + unwarranted stigma = won't sell. Pretty simple.

That may change, but it won't happen overnight and Ford isn't in much of a position to risk that much on something that has proven to be a stinker over and over again in the US market.

Fair points.
I can see it's the cheaper option - but I don't drive a diesel, because I hate them. Even with all the turbo diesels you see everywhere these days - I hate the initial lack of throttle response. They pull off too sluggishly.

Quick question though - what's the typical octane level of the fuel in the pumps in the US?

Over here it's 95 regular, 97 (or sometimes 98) premium and you sometimes (but very rarely) see 102 race grade.
I seem to remember seeing 87 for sale in the US - which is bad (in all sorts of ways - for the engine, for the mileage and mostly for the environment).

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-09-23 12:07:04)

2008-09-23 13:13:48

#66

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6419|'Murka

87 for regular, 89 for midgrade, 93 for premium.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-09-23 13:38:13

#67

The#1Spot: Member; +105|6548|byah

smuder201 wrote:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/ … 1/volt.jpg

That actually looks ok & i'm european, the thing that will let it down will be the build quality as it all ways does in cars from the US, there will be wall to wall cheap nasty plastic everywhere, the manual gear box will be like a wooden spoon stirring cake mixture in large bowl, which is a shame because the car does look good.

If you look at an Acura TL you will understand why it looks good to you.

2008-09-23 13:46:09

#68

Karbin: Member; +42|6303

Dilbert_X wrote:
The Big Three know that small cars are the money maker for the time being. Trucks have stopped being the number one seller for the first time ever. They (and foreign makers) are redirecting resources from truck assembly to medium/small car assembly. The facts of where the companies are going seem to disprove your contention.
Its incredibly hard to make money on small cars.
I worked on the previous Fiesta, I know.
Ford America just doesn't understand the diesel market, not in Europe or America.

At one time the Detroit Three built huge cars. Then OPEC turned off the oil taps.
Yells and screams for small cars and more MPG. OPEC turns the taps back on.
The Detroit Three come back with:

Pinto
Omni
Cricket
Colt
and the
K car

People get use to higher fuel price's. People want more interior space, more "Toys" inside more "Refinements".
Bigger cars make a comeback. MPG takes a backseat to Horsepower.
Then the SUV craze.

Ooppss

Oil through the roof again.... Screams and yells for smaller cars and better MPG..........

EV1 came in response to California's call for Zero emissions.
Funny thing about that was that, the EV1 went farther then the Volt...with ten year older teck.
And when the Zero Emissions bill failed the EV1s, that were on lease, started to come back and ended up crushed.
Now, lets look and the "Running Cost" of the EV1 and Volt.

Servicing.

No oil changes
No tune-ups and the parts that go with it.

In facts, the only thing you need to do is check and replace dead cells and rotate the tires.

Think about the parts.....
Think about the PRICE of the parts.
Think about the LABOUR to put the parts on
How about making the parts?

Hmmmmmm

Really think the Volts going to get the support it should?

2008-09-23 13:58:50

#69

The#1Spot: Member; +105|6548|byah

usmarine wrote:
The#1Spot wrote:
usmarine wrote:
its about getting off the foreign oil bro. and i dont keep cars for more than 6 years.
The point is that you will save more money in the long run buying a cheaper gas powered car with over 30mpg than the Volt
how? my commute to work is 8 miles round trip. and weekend errands and such would rarely go over 40 miles roundtrip.

Why not ride a bike to work and use your vehicle for errands?

Last edited by The#1Spot (2008-09-23 14:04:24)

2008-09-23 14:33:54

#70

usmarine: Banned; +2,785|6770

The#1Spot wrote:
usmarine wrote:
The#1Spot wrote:
The point is that you will save more money in the long run buying a cheaper gas powered car with over 30mpg than the Volt
how? my commute to work is 8 miles round trip. and weekend errands and such would rarely go over 40 miles roundtrip.
Why not ride a bike to work and use your vehicle for errands?

ohio climate blows most of the year. no sidewalks 80% of the way either. its either back roads or highway.

Last edited by usmarine (2008-09-23 14:34:33)

2008-09-23 15:05:44

#71

m3thod: All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz; +2,197|6680|UK

FEOS wrote:
87 for regular, 89 for midgrade, 93 for premium.

93 RON is premium?

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

2008-09-23 15:10:47

#72

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6419|'Murka

m3thod wrote:
FEOS wrote:
87 for regular, 89 for midgrade, 93 for premium.
93 RON is premium?

Looks like we use slightly different standards on this side of the pond...

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-09-23 15:14:35

#73

m3thod: All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz; +2,197|6680|UK

FEOS wrote:
m3thod wrote:
FEOS wrote:
87 for regular, 89 for midgrade, 93 for premium.
93 RON is premium?
Looks like we use slightly different standards on this side of the pond...

i'm too lazy to read. so i'll believe you just this once.

100 RON is the highest i've seen here in the UK, Shell V Power...although i've read that Shell V Power over in Germany is 105 RON.

tbh i can't tell the difference when i put 100 RON or 95 RON in my car.

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

2008-09-23 17:13:10

#74

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6419|'Murka

m3thod wrote:
FEOS wrote:
m3thod wrote:

93 RON is premium?
Looks like we use slightly different standards on this side of the pond...
i'm too lazy to read. so i'll believe you just this once.

100 RON is the highest i've seen here in the UK, Shell V Power...although i've read that Shell V Power over in Germany is 105 RON.

tbh i can't tell the difference when i put 100 RON or 95 RON in my car.

Our standard is an average of the R (RON) and M ratings (R+M)/2.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-09-23 17:21:35

#75

Ridir: Semper Fi!; +48|6772

quick question:
has anyone thought of the price of the gas & electric bill with the Chevy Volt?

You're gas at the pump might be less and the pollution from the car might be less but unless there is an alternative fuel for power plants (European style Nuclear plants) I don't see the volt actually making any difference. I think a massive redistribution of fuel types in the US is going to be the key to this whole dilemma unfortunately.

BF2S Forums The 65 mpg Ford - a car the U.S. Can't Have

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sydney wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

topal63 wrote:

Bell wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

smuder201 wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

smuder201 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

usmarine wrote:

The#1Spot wrote:

usmarine wrote:

The#1Spot wrote:

usmarine wrote:

The#1Spot wrote:

FEOS wrote:

m3thod wrote:

FEOS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

m3thod wrote:

FEOS wrote:

m3thod wrote:

FEOS wrote:

m3thod wrote:

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