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2008-08-10 11:43:37
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6995|67.222.138.85
There are basically two things worth having: respect and money. With those two things or a combination you can "spend" them to get just about anything you want, if you have enough of either one. Of the two however, money is obviously easier to work with in the everyday, and with enough money you can easily buy respect. Not fake, write me in your will respect, make enough money and you will be respected purely from the idea that you made that much money. Going the other way is possible, but not as simple.

So why is it that we handsomely reward jobs that (supposedly) require large amount of technical skill with money, while jobs that are vital to the basic workings of society are rewarded almost entirely in respect? The firefighter, the soldier, the policeman, the teacher, all jobs that the world would literally come to a halt without, and yet they are compensated so poorly in monetary terms? Do we believe that we can make up for it by putting them on a pedestal, or do we truly not value these jobs? Do we feel sorry for them, and would we not feel so bad if they got better pay? Are we putting them in a lower income bracket to keep them under our control, to make sure those most functional in our society remain complacent at the risk of complete financial instability?

The average foot soldier has signed a contract to put his life on the line in exchange for little compensation, while their 4 star desk jockey counterpart sits comfortably in his office making more money. The average teacher that is everyday teaching future generations the technical and social skills they will need to make tomorrow a better time than today, and their controlling superiors work administrative jobs for better pay. Why can't the pyramid be flipped upside down?

Why is skill respected and greasing the wheels of the mundane compensated?
2008-08-10 11:46:48
jord
Member
+2,382|6966|The North, beyond the wall.
I agree. I;ve always said soldiers should be paid twice as much, and that's a problem we've got here too. A lot of soldiers are leaving the military because they can get paid 3 times as much in private company's.

And therein lies the answer. The jobs you listed are paid by taxpayer money. Where as skilled jobs belong to large companies and corporations.
2008-08-10 11:51:18
kylef
Gone
+1,352|6781|N. Ireland
In that respect, bin men should be paid the highest because without them, we'd have a rubbish epidemic (lol)
2008-08-10 11:51:30
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6995|67.222.138.85

jord wrote:

I agree. I;ve always said soldiers should be paid twice as much, and that's a problem we've got here too. A lot of soldiers are leaving the military because they can get paid 3 times as much in private company's.

And therein lies the answer. The jobs you listed are paid by taxpayer money. Where as skilled jobs belong to large companies and corporations.
The Wal Mart store manager has to keep a large store filled with a huge variety of products running smoothly on a day to day basis. His superiors consider where they should open their next behemoth.

It applies everywhere, it just so happens that our most basic jobs are the most respected and government funded. We see value in what they do, but not enough to pay more taxes. The point is the cushier the job, the more you get paid. lolwut
2008-08-10 11:58:47
jord
Member
+2,382|6966|The North, beyond the wall.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

jord wrote:

I agree. I;ve always said soldiers should be paid twice as much, and that's a problem we've got here too. A lot of soldiers are leaving the military because they can get paid 3 times as much in private company's.

And therein lies the answer. The jobs you listed are paid by taxpayer money. Where as skilled jobs belong to large companies and corporations.
The Wal Mart store manager has to keep a large store filled with a huge variety of products running smoothly on a day to day basis. His superiors consider where they should open their next behemoth.

It applies everywhere, it just so happens that our most basic jobs are the most respected and government funded. We see value in what they do, but not enough to pay more taxes. The point is the cushier the job, the more you get paid. lolwut
That's the generally thumb of how shit works. The more easy your job the more you get paid.

That's after training, colleges and University's. So it's an investment when you pay for education. You pay 20k or whatever and in your study time don't get money. However when you complete said education and training you get a bigger wage than the respected, harder jobs.
2008-08-10 12:02:27
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,982|6920|949

jord wrote:

I agree. I;ve always said soldiers should be paid twice as much, and that's a problem we've got here too. A lot of soldiers are leaving the military because they can get paid 3 times as much in private company's.

And therein lies the answer. The jobs you listed are paid by taxpayer money. Where as skilled jobs belong to large companies and corporations.
A soldier has a skillset that perhaps is easier to learn by the general public, plus a larger candidate pool.  People do it for altruistic reasons as well, perhaps decreasing the amount of incentive (pay) the government needs to offer for the job.

Soldiers, whether in the Military or working for private companies, get paid by the taxpayer.  I think your example is more telling of the relationship of the military-industrial complex to government and power-elite than to the philisophical/rhetorical question posed in the OP.

Paying more taxes would probably not result in the average foot soldier earning more money.  As far as Military pay, it's not so much the amount of taxes as much as where the tax money goes.  We spend more tax money to pay for private military contractors than we do for our own public military contractors (the US Armed Forces).  That's not because we value them more, or because they can do jobs the US Armed Forces can't do, it's because people have power-relationships and donate obscene amounts of money to make that absurd fact a reality.

Those that make the world go 'round have the money.  The cogs (the respected people you talk about) largely just get little scraps from the controllers of concentrated capital.  Every so often those power-elite feel threatened enought to add a few more scraps to appease the masses.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-08-10 12:05:46)

2008-08-10 12:04:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6693|North Carolina
Um...  I should've read the earlier posts.  Jord and Ken pretty much covered everything I was going to say....  lol

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-08-10 12:07:19)

2008-08-10 17:55:08
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6817|Global Command
I think public employees, at least the firemen I have known are very well compensated.
They also have short terms before retirement compared to civilian trades also it is often used as a springboard to bigger and better things because they can rake it in on overtime.
2008-08-10 17:57:32
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|7008|California

Planned overtime, the firefighters cash camel.
2008-08-10 18:20:37
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6889|132 and Bush

Doctors, I guess that would be an exception. They save lives as well.

The only other thing I would say that is the 4 star general has probably put his time in. His pay provides motivation for the average foot soldier to work hard, be successful, and get rewarded. It's a hierarchy, like most corporations are.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-08-10 18:40:39
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6961|Colorado
Hmm I don't know where you live but here in Denver the teachers get paid very well, my g/f's sister & aunt are both teachers & clear 70k a year.
Not sure what everyone else makes but if you think these people make the world go around I'd have to laugh, sure they are important to certain functions within society but come on, makes the world go around>?! Try big business & innovation makes the world go around to me & people willing to devote themselves to special skills sets should be rewarded.

Last edited by TrollmeaT (2008-08-10 18:41:12)

2008-08-10 18:52:00
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6889|132 and Bush

TrollmeaT wrote:

Hmm I don't know where you live but here in Denver the teachers get paid very well, my g/f's sister & aunt are both teachers & clear 70k a year.
Not sure what everyone else makes but if you think these people make the world go around I'd have to laugh, sure they are important to certain functions within society but come on, makes the world go around>?! Try big business & innovation makes the world go around to me & people willing to devote themselves to special skills sets should be rewarded.
Holy crap that's high for a teacher.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All … ers/Salary
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-08-10 18:53:37
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6826|Long Island, New York

Kmarion wrote:

TrollmeaT wrote:

Hmm I don't know where you live but here in Denver the teachers get paid very well, my g/f's sister & aunt are both teachers & clear 70k a year.
Not sure what everyone else makes but if you think these people make the world go around I'd have to laugh, sure they are important to certain functions within society but come on, makes the world go around>?! Try big business & innovation makes the world go around to me & people willing to devote themselves to special skills sets should be rewarded.
Holy crap that's high for a teacher.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All … ers/Salary
Teachers in NY make a fuckload as well.
2008-08-10 18:56:53
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6889|132 and Bush

Poseidon wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

TrollmeaT wrote:

Hmm I don't know where you live but here in Denver the teachers get paid very well, my g/f's sister & aunt are both teachers & clear 70k a year.
Not sure what everyone else makes but if you think these people make the world go around I'd have to laugh, sure they are important to certain functions within society but come on, makes the world go around>?! Try big business & innovation makes the world go around to me & people willing to devote themselves to special skills sets should be rewarded.
Holy crap that's high for a teacher.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All … ers/Salary
Teachers in NY make a fuckload as well.
The average teacher salary in Colorado for the 2004-05 school year was $43,965, up 1.5 percent from the previous year. Colorado was ranked 12th in the nation for beginning teacher salary, at $35,086, down 1.6 percent from 2004.
The average teacher salary nationally in 2004-05 was $47,602, a 2.2 percent increase from the previous year. This falls short of the rate of inflation for that year, which was 3.4 percent.
http://www.aft.org/presscenter/releases … vey-CO.pdf

The average teacher salary in New York for the 2004-05 school year was $55,665, up 0.9 percent from the previous year when it was ranked third. New York was ranked fifth in the nation for beginning teacher salary, at $37,321, an increase of 2.5 percent from 2004.
The average teacher salary nationally in 2004-05 was $47,602, a 2.2 percent increase from the previous year. This falls short of the rate of inflation for that year, which was 3.4 percent. Between 2003 and 2005, the buying power of the average teacher salary decreased by almost $800.
http://www.aft.org/presscenter/releases … vey-NY.pdf

NY has a high cost of living as well.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-08-10 18:59:54
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6826|Long Island, New York
It's still a lot for what they have to do and the time they get off.
2008-08-10 19:05:27
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6693|North Carolina

TrollmeaT wrote:

Hmm I don't know where you live but here in Denver the teachers get paid very well, my g/f's sister & aunt are both teachers & clear 70k a year.
Not sure what everyone else makes but if you think these people make the world go around I'd have to laugh, sure they are important to certain functions within society but come on, makes the world go around>?! Try big business & innovation makes the world go around to me & people willing to devote themselves to special skills sets should be rewarded.
Innovators, CEOs, and specialists all have to learn their skills somewhere.  Teachers really do make the world go 'round in that respect.  And yes, innovators usually are educated just as thoroughly as the others.
2008-08-10 19:22:01
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6995|67.222.138.85
Well thank you Kmarion for calling bullshit for me and bringing in your usual flurry of sources.

As for firemen, you get overtime when you can from what I understand. Now if you live in somewhere like California that is a pretty sure bet, but around here, not so much.

The jobs I have mentioned are some of the ones fundamental to our basic life. Without firemen the results are obvious, without policemen we descend to anarchy, without teachers we start moving backwards, without soldiers we get run over by whoever doesn't like us. Without doctors more people die from disease than necessary, but concerning society this doesn't effect us much. Arguably it would breed a physically stronger race. Without corporations we lose modern amenities and our modern way of life, but we could get along just fine. The people the make our society function are the ones without the money, but the ones with the money are the ones controlling those people.

Why cannot people start at administrative positions, and you get promoted to harder working jobs at higher pay? Or start working at the hard jobs at high pay, than as you age go into administrative and make less money?

edit: Also, these types of jobs do require a fair amount of education. To get decent money around here it isn't uncommon for teachers to have a master's degree, I believe policemen must have a college degree, park rangers in the U.S. are required to have a college degree, the list goes on. These are construction workers on the side of the road.
2008-08-10 19:30:27
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|7008|California

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Well thank you Kmarion for calling bullshit for me and bringing in your usual flurry of sources.

As for firemen, you get overtime when you can from what I understand. Now if you live in somewhere like California that is a pretty sure bet, but around here, not so much.

The jobs I have mentioned are some of the ones fundamental to our basic life. Without firemen the results are obvious, without policemen we descend to anarchy, without teachers we start moving backwards, without soldiers we get run over by whoever doesn't like us. Without doctors more people die from disease than necessary, but concerning society this doesn't effect us much. Arguably it would breed a physically stronger race. Without corporations we lose modern amenities and our modern way of life, but we could get along just fine. The people the make our society function are the ones without the money, but the ones with the money are the ones controlling those people.

Why cannot people start at administrative positions, and you get promoted to harder working jobs at higher pay? Or start working at the hard jobs at high pay, than as you age go into administrative and make less money?

edit: Also, these types of jobs do require a fair amount of education. To get decent money around here it isn't uncommon for teachers to have a master's degree, I believe policemen must have a college degree, park rangers in the U.S. are required to have a college degree, the list goes on. These are construction workers on the side of the road.
Take one piece out and find that they are all attached.
2008-08-10 19:31:04
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7054|UK
The way society works though is skill equates to money, jobs that have a certain skill get more money than others. Jobs such as being a soldier don't require previous skill at all. You can join the army with no qualifications and they teach you everything you need to know, this means you earn less money than someone that goes to a job that requires previous skills, such as a degree (although everyone knows degrees are a load of bollox).
2008-08-10 19:32:41
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6995|67.222.138.85

stryyker wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Well thank you Kmarion for calling bullshit for me and bringing in your usual flurry of sources.

As for firemen, you get overtime when you can from what I understand. Now if you live in somewhere like California that is a pretty sure bet, but around here, not so much.

The jobs I have mentioned are some of the ones fundamental to our basic life. Without firemen the results are obvious, without policemen we descend to anarchy, without teachers we start moving backwards, without soldiers we get run over by whoever doesn't like us. Without doctors more people die from disease than necessary, but concerning society this doesn't effect us much. Arguably it would breed a physically stronger race. Without corporations we lose modern amenities and our modern way of life, but we could get along just fine. The people the make our society function are the ones without the money, but the ones with the money are the ones controlling those people.

Why cannot people start at administrative positions, and you get promoted to harder working jobs at higher pay? Or start working at the hard jobs at high pay, than as you age go into administrative and make less money?

edit: Also, these types of jobs do require a fair amount of education. To get decent money around here it isn't uncommon for teachers to have a master's degree, I believe policemen must have a college degree, park rangers in the U.S. are required to have a college degree, the list goes on. These are construction workers on the side of the road.
Take one piece out and find that they are all attached.
The CEO of Nokia I'm sure would be a real useful person to have around after a nuclear holocaust compared to a soldier.
2008-08-10 19:36:47
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|7008|California

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

stryyker wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Well thank you Kmarion for calling bullshit for me and bringing in your usual flurry of sources.

As for firemen, you get overtime when you can from what I understand. Now if you live in somewhere like California that is a pretty sure bet, but around here, not so much.

The jobs I have mentioned are some of the ones fundamental to our basic life. Without firemen the results are obvious, without policemen we descend to anarchy, without teachers we start moving backwards, without soldiers we get run over by whoever doesn't like us. Without doctors more people die from disease than necessary, but concerning society this doesn't effect us much. Arguably it would breed a physically stronger race. Without corporations we lose modern amenities and our modern way of life, but we could get along just fine. The people the make our society function are the ones without the money, but the ones with the money are the ones controlling those people.

Why cannot people start at administrative positions, and you get promoted to harder working jobs at higher pay? Or start working at the hard jobs at high pay, than as you age go into administrative and make less money?

edit: Also, these types of jobs do require a fair amount of education. To get decent money around here it isn't uncommon for teachers to have a master's degree, I believe policemen must have a college degree, park rangers in the U.S. are required to have a college degree, the list goes on. These are construction workers on the side of the road.
Take one piece out and find that they are all attached.
The CEO of Nokia I'm sure would be a real useful person to have around after a nuclear holocaust compared to a soldier.
I think this is a 'chicken or egg' situation. One has its uses, the other one has its.

But in a time of lacking, most people would step up to the plate and do what had to be done.
2008-08-10 19:43:59
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6693|North Carolina

stryyker wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

stryyker wrote:


Take one piece out and find that they are all attached.
The CEO of Nokia I'm sure would be a real useful person to have around after a nuclear holocaust compared to a soldier.
I think this is a 'chicken or egg' situation. One has its uses, the other one has its.

But in a time of lacking, most people would step up to the plate and do what had to be done.
To a degree, yes...  Although, it's often a situation where the number of people involved has an inverse relationship on the likelihood of someone actually stepping up.  The Genovese syndrome....  (as Kmarion pointed out in another thread)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
2008-08-10 19:45:30
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6995|67.222.138.85

stryyker wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

stryyker wrote:


Take one piece out and find that they are all attached.
The CEO of Nokia I'm sure would be a real useful person to have around after a nuclear holocaust compared to a soldier.
I think this is a 'chicken or egg' situation. One has its uses, the other one has its.

But in a time of lacking, most people would step up to the plate and do what had to be done.
They are as if not more useless than anyone else in that situation, so why are they worth millions of dollars more now?
2008-08-10 19:50:23
Tripulaci0n
Member
+14|6444
Because we don't base our society on who would be useful after a nuclear holocaust? And why would a soldier be more useful than anyone else?

I know it's a terrible movie, but in The Happening, the few military people that were in there were just as useless as everyone else in a disaster like that.

After a nuclear holocaust, assuming there isn't a wide spread access to firearms, martial artists and doctors would probably be the most useful people around.
2008-08-10 19:54:23
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7050

since teachers have a good amount of time off, do you average into their salary at all?  you should tbh.

 

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