Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856
It wasn't Palestine's land before Israel's creation. Prior to the UK and France creating arbitrary borders across the region in the early 20th century, the middle east was one giant borderless region. There were no Syrians, no Iraqis, no Palestinians etc... They were just Arabs.

While it's true that there were some Arabs living in the region of Palestine prior to Israel's creation, they were mostly a nomadic people without any serious attachment to the land. Palestine was not a country at the time. There was no government, no currency, no flag, no national anthem or anything else that's required to classify something as a country. In other words, there was no sense of unity there. There were just a couple hundred thousand random people living throughout without any real attachment to the land. There were also a number of Jews there as well (Jerusalem, for example, has had a Jewish majority since long before Zionism was ever even conceived).

Once the Zionist movement started and Jews started moving in, they settled on uninhabited parts of the region and parts that did have Arab landowners were legally purchased. David Ben Gurion (who later became Israel's first PM) even went on record telling the Zionists to only make purchases from wealthy land owners. The Zionists then cultivated the land and turned the swamps into fertile land by drying them up with eucalyptus trees. Once the land became nice and fertile, more Arabs started moving in as well to take advantage of it.

Eventually, this all led to the 1948 war in which the Jews finally declared a country on the land that they owned and the Arabs declared war, trying to exterminate the Jews to take every square inch of land for themselves. The Arabs lost the war, lost land in the process, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:26:04)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina
During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim  Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Initially they were replaced by the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin conquered Jerusalem. The Crusaders then held a smaller and smaller area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, they broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties. Crusade after crusade tried unsuccessfully to recapture Jerusalem.

The crusaders left Palestine for good when the Muslims captured Acre in 1291. During the post-crusade period, crusaders often raided the coast of Palestine. To deny the crusaders gains from these raids, the Muslims pulled their people back from the coasts and destroyed coastal towns and farms. This depopulated and impoverished the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of Palestine's population. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim  Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Initially they were replaced by the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin conquered Jerusalem. The Crusaders then held a smaller and smaller area along the coast of Palestine, under treaty with Saladin. However, they broke the treaty with Saladin and later treaties. Crusade after crusade tried unsuccessfully to recapture Jerusalem.

The crusaders left Palestine for good when the Muslims captured Acre in 1291. During the post-crusade period, crusaders often raided the coast of Palestine. To deny the crusaders gains from these raids, the Muslims pulled their people back from the coasts and destroyed coastal towns and farms. This depopulated and impoverished the coast of Palestine for hundreds of years.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of Palestine's population. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.
I don't see how, in any way, this addresses what I posted (assuming you were addressing my post). It seems you've just copied and pasted a random section out of the article.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

While it's true that there were some Arabs living in the region of Palestine prior to Israel's creation, they were mostly a nomadic people without any serious attachment to the land. Palestine was not a country at the time.
Some Arabs?  Check the info I "pasted" and see who was there for quite a few time.  Israel as a country has been there only for 60 years, not much time to forget the centuries before.

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

The Arabs lost the war, lost land in the process, and the rest, as they say, is history.
If it comes to who lost a war, Jews and Palestinians both lost several wars, so who cares who lost the last war?  The land belongs to both Jews and Palestinians.  I don't know how to fix that problem, but it's unfair what Palestinians are living right now.
[UTQ]_Ausch88
Banned
+23|6705

sergeriver wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


That is out of question.  What is on the table is the fact that this guy Auschwitz88 or whatever said that the jews were infecting the land.  I support Palestine but I don't want the Jews to be wiped.
read my post again.. i don't want the jews to be wiped.. i want ISRAEL to be wiped.. doesnt mean to kill all the jews over there.. stop thinking that everybody want you all dead.. we are in 2006

the leader of IRAN want ISRAEL to be wiped from the map..  he mean he want the COUNTRY of ISRAEL to be erased..destroyed.. not to kill all the ISRAELIS!!

he just want them to be relocated to a place where they belong..in germany for example.. you know it was the german who mistreated the jews in WW2.. not the muslims.. so why create a country in the middle of their land?

and stop calling me with that name.. not because i don't agree with you that im automatically a nazi
Ok, I did.  Here is what you wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

ISRAELIS are disgusting.. i support the fight of the palestinians.. and hope in the near future that they will be able to send all those bastard back to AMERICA or whatever country they want to infect.

GO PALESTINIA

GO HEZBOLLAH

AND GO IRAN

clean your land of this infection
Jews want to infect...?  Clean your land of this infection?
It sounds very Nazi to me.
nazis wanted to KILL all the jews.. thats is what you keep saying for 60 years now

i say don't kill them.. i think every human being have the right to live peacefully  even the big bad muslims!

i say ISRAELIS will never live in peace in ISRAEL.. because they keep grabing land and bombing their neighbors (sp?)

i say find a peaceful land for all the ISRAELIS and move them there.. keep sending 5 billions dollars every year over there if you want but at least everybody will be happy.. palestinains will have their land back, ISRAELIS will live in peace with good neighbors (sp?)
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

While it's true that there were some Arabs living in the region of Palestine prior to Israel's creation, they were mostly a nomadic people without any serious attachment to the land. Palestine was not a country at the time.
Some Arabs?  Check the info I "pasted" and see who was there for quite a few time.  Israel as a country has been there only for 60 years, not much time to forget the centuries before.

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

The Arabs lost the war, lost land in the process, and the rest, as they say, is history.
If it comes to who lost a war, Jews and Palestinians both lost several wars, so who cares who lost the last war?  The land belongs to both Jews and Palestinians.  I don't know how to fix that problem, but it's unfair what Palestinians are living right now.
You're arguing my use of the word "some"? By some, I did not mean few. I meant that there were Arabs living in the region. Either way, it is not the point of my post. In fact, the entire section of the article you copied and pasted is completely irrelevant to what I have argued.

Also, [UTQ]_Ausch88, you are consistently making some of the worst, inarticulate posts on this forum:

[UTQ wrote:

_Ausch88]
    ISRAELIS are disgusting.. i support the fight of the palestinians.. and hope in the near future that they will be able to send all those bastard back to AMERICA or whatever country they want to infect.

    GO PALESTINIA

    GO HEZBOLLAH

    AND GO IRAN

    clean your land of this infection

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:15:53)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:


read my post again.. i don't want the jews to be wiped.. i want ISRAEL to be wiped.. doesnt mean to kill all the jews over there.. stop thinking that everybody want you all dead.. we are in 2006

the leader of IRAN want ISRAEL to be wiped from the map..  he mean he want the COUNTRY of ISRAEL to be erased..destroyed.. not to kill all the ISRAELIS!!

he just want them to be relocated to a place where they belong..in germany for example.. you know it was the german who mistreated the jews in WW2.. not the muslims.. so why create a country in the middle of their land?

and stop calling me with that name.. not because i don't agree with you that im automatically a nazi
Ok, I did.  Here is what you wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

ISRAELIS are disgusting.. i support the fight of the palestinians.. and hope in the near future that they will be able to send all those bastard back to AMERICA or whatever country they want to infect.

GO PALESTINIA

GO HEZBOLLAH

AND GO IRAN

clean your land of this infection
Jews want to infect...?  Clean your land of this infection?
It sounds very Nazi to me.
nazis wanted to KILL all the jews.. thats is what you keep saying for 60 years now

i say don't kill them.. i think every human being have the right to live peacefully  even the big bad muslims!

i say ISRAELIS will never live in peace in ISRAEL.. because they keep grabing land and bombing their neighbors (sp?)

i say find a peaceful land for all the ISRAELIS and move them there.. keep sending 5 billions dollars every year over there if you want but at least everybody will be happy.. palestinains will have their land back, ISRAELIS will live in peace with good neighbors (sp?)
At this moment the land should belong to both Israelis and Palestinians.  The part I condemn from your post is where you say "send all those bastard back to AMERICA or whatever country they want to infect" and "clean your land from this infection".
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

While it's true that there were some Arabs living in the region of Palestine prior to Israel's creation, they were mostly a nomadic people without any serious attachment to the land. Palestine was not a country at the time.
Some Arabs?  Check the info I "pasted" and see who was there for quite a few time.  Israel as a country has been there only for 60 years, not much time to forget the centuries before.

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

The Arabs lost the war, lost land in the process, and the rest, as they say, is history.
If it comes to who lost a war, Jews and Palestinians both lost several wars, so who cares who lost the last war?  The land belongs to both Jews and Palestinians.  I don't know how to fix that problem, but it's unfair what Palestinians are living right now.
You're arguing my use of the word "some"? By some, I did not mean few. I meant that there were Arabs living in the region. Either way, it is not the point of my post. In fact, the entire section of the article you copied and pasted is completely irrelevant to what I have argued.
You have your right to think whatever you want.  The point of your post was "the land belongs to the Jews because Arabs lost it in 48".
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

You have your right to think whatever you want.  The point of your post was "the land belongs to the Jews because Arabs lost it in 48".
Wrong again. I think you need to re-read my post. My point, as I clearly stated in the first sentence of my post, was that it wasn't their land to lose. I went on in that post to outline why.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:21:43)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

You have your right to think whatever you want.  The point of your post was "the land belongs to the Jews because Arabs lost it in 48".
Wrong again. I think you need to re-read my post. My point, as I clearly stated in the first sentence of my post, was that it wasn't their land to lose. I went on in that post to outline why.
When you say their land, who are you talking about?
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

You have your right to think whatever you want.  The point of your post was "the land belongs to the Jews because Arabs lost it in 48".
Wrong again. I think you need to re-read my post. My point, as I clearly stated in the first sentence of my post, was that it wasn't their land to lose. I went on in that post to outline why.
When you say their land, who are you talking about?
Palestine's. That is obvious. Simply read my post. Maybe I should have directly quoted one of [UTQ]_Ausch88's posts to clarify things, but they are so horrendous I couldn't bring myself to do it. Anyway, I edited it now so it shouldn't be a problem. The fact that it was a problem to begin doesn't surprise me considering it has taken you 3 attempts so far to comprehend a clearly articulated post.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:27:45)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Wrong again. I think you need to re-read my post. My point, as I clearly stated in the first sentence of my post, was that it wasn't their land to lose. I went on in that post to outline why.
When you say their land, who are you talking about?
Palestine's. That is obvious. Simply read my post. Maybe I should have directly quoted one of [UTQ]_Ausch88's posts to clarify things, but they are so horrendous I couldn't bring myself to do it.
Well, I agree with you, those posts are horrendous indeed. 
Regarding your post, the first thing I understood by their land was Palestine's.  So, my post is addressing what you said in your first one.  I don't think that land wasn't theirs.  Read what I posted or "pasted" as you said, and you will see there were Arabs in that region for centuries, no matter there never was a country called Palestine before.

Edit: There's no need for aggression, I understood your post the first time.

Last edited by sergeriver (2006-11-23 07:33:34)

Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

When you say their land, who are you talking about?
Palestine's. That is obvious. Simply read my post. Maybe I should have directly quoted one of [UTQ]_Ausch88's posts to clarify things, but they are so horrendous I couldn't bring myself to do it.
Well, I agree with you, those posts are horrendous indeed. 
Regarding your post, the first thing I understood by their land was Palestine's.  So, my post is addressing what you said in your first one.  I don't think that land wasn't theirs.  Read what I posted or "pasted" as you said, and you will see there were Arabs in that region for centuries, no matter there never was a country called Palestine before.
Yes, I acknowledged that there were Arabs in the region, but that fact is irrelevant. This is because like any established country today, there was a time when it was not formally a country but still had people living on its land. By your logic, we could go back and argue like this about every country on earth. The only reason why this topic is even this common is due to the turmoil in that region. The key here is that there was no formal country of Palestine at the time.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:37:33)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:


Palestine's. That is obvious. Simply read my post. Maybe I should have directly quoted one of [UTQ]_Ausch88's posts to clarify things, but they are so horrendous I couldn't bring myself to do it.
Well, I agree with you, those posts are horrendous indeed. 
Regarding your post, the first thing I understood by their land was Palestine's.  So, my post is addressing what you said in your first one.  I don't think that land wasn't theirs.  Read what I posted or "pasted" as you said, and you will see there were Arabs in that region for centuries, no matter there never was a country called Palestine before.
Yes, I acknowledged that there were Arabs in the region, but that fact is irrelevant. This is because like any established country today, there was a time when it was not formally a country but still had people living on its land. By your logic, we could go back and argue like this about every country on earth. The only reason why this topic is even this common is due to the turmoil in that region. The key here is that there was no formal country of Palestine at the time.
True, there was no formal country of Palestine or Israel.  But you can't bury centuries of history only for 60 years.  The fair thing to do would be the creation of 2 States with their own borders.
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Well, I agree with you, those posts are horrendous indeed. 
Regarding your post, the first thing I understood by their land was Palestine's.  So, my post is addressing what you said in your first one.  I don't think that land wasn't theirs.  Read what I posted or "pasted" as you said, and you will see there were Arabs in that region for centuries, no matter there never was a country called Palestine before.
Yes, I acknowledged that there were Arabs in the region, but that fact is irrelevant. This is because like any established country today, there was a time when it was not formally a country but still had people living on its land. By your logic, we could go back and argue like this about every country on earth. The only reason why this topic is even this common is due to the turmoil in that region. The key here is that there was no formal country of Palestine at the time.
True, there was no formal country of Palestine or Israel.  But you can't bury centuries of history only for 60 years.  The fair thing to do would be the creation of 2 States with their own borders.
Funny you should mention that. Initially all of Israel and Jordan were promised to the Jews (1917 Balfour Declaration). As a result of Arab pressure on the UK, the land was split with 76% of it going to the Arabs (to become Jordan) and 24% being given to the Jews. Of that 24%, the UN was then going to split it further, giving half to the Jews and half to the Arabs. Guess what? The Jews accepted the partition while the Arabs rejected every single proposal offered unconditionally (the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN Partition Plan etc...). The fact of the matter is that even though the Jews were only being offered a tiny fraction of what was initially theirs, they accepted while the Arabs rejected time and time again and chose to go to war instead. The Jews were willing to share and live in peace while the Arabs weren't.

Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-11-23 07:47:40)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:


Yes, I acknowledged that there were Arabs in the region, but that fact is irrelevant. This is because like any established country today, there was a time when it was not formally a country but still had people living on its land. By your logic, we could go back and argue like this about every country on earth. The only reason why this topic is even this common is due to the turmoil in that region. The key here is that there was no formal country of Palestine at the time.
True, there was no formal country of Palestine or Israel.  But you can't bury centuries of history only for 60 years.  The fair thing to do would be the creation of 2 States with their own borders.
Funny you should mention that. Initially all of Israel and Jordan were promised to the Jews (1917 Balfour Declaration). As a result of Arab pressure on the UK, the land was split with 76% of it going to the Arabs (to become Jordan) and 24% being given to the Jews. Of that 24%, the UN was then going to split it further, giving half to the Jews and half to the Arabs. Guess what? The Jews accepted the partition while the Arabs rejected every single proposal offered unconditionally (the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN Partition Plan etc...). The fact of the matter is that even though the Jews were only being offered a tiny fraction of what was initially theirs, they accepted while the Arabs rejected time and time again and chose to go to war instead. The Jews were willing to share and live in peace while the Arabs weren't.
Who says Arabs didn't fuck up things too?  But you can't deny their rights on that land, the same rights the Jews have.  Politicians always make mistakes, and normal people ends paying for those mistakes.  Who cares if they didn't want to accept that deal?  This problem needs a solution regardless of who did what.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6791|SE London

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

It wasn't Palestine's land before Israel's creation. Prior to the UK and France creating arbitrary borders across the region in the early 20th century, the middle east was one giant borderless region. There were no Syrians, no Iraqis, no Palestinians etc... They were just Arabs.
That's not entirely true. They were not 'one people' as you make it sound, but a collection of peoples. The area that is thought of as Palestine was promised to some of these nomadic Arabs by the British for their part in WWI helping Lawrence of Arabia. The area was never implictly promised to Jewish immigrants by anyone in control of it. The Palestinians (Arabs from the region of Palestine, as it had been called for millenia) considering the land to be theirs is understandable as they were promised it. The borders may not have been rigid but the region was certainly Palestine.

The indecisiveness of the British government at this time was a critical factor in the problems that arose. More decisive action either for or against the Palestinians by the British could have either lent legitimacy to a Zionist state or prevented it's creation. This indecision is not in any way justification for the Zionist terror campaigns which led to the formation of the state of Israel however.
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


True, there was no formal country of Palestine or Israel.  But you can't bury centuries of history only for 60 years.  The fair thing to do would be the creation of 2 States with their own borders.
Funny you should mention that. Initially all of Israel and Jordan were promised to the Jews (1917 Balfour Declaration). As a result of Arab pressure on the UK, the land was split with 76% of it going to the Arabs (to become Jordan) and 24% being given to the Jews. Of that 24%, the UN was then going to split it further, giving half to the Jews and half to the Arabs. Guess what? The Jews accepted the partition while the Arabs rejected every single proposal offered unconditionally (the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN Partition Plan etc...). The fact of the matter is that even though the Jews were only being offered a tiny fraction of what was initially theirs, they accepted while the Arabs rejected time and time again and chose to go to war instead. The Jews were willing to share and live in peace while the Arabs weren't.
Who says Arabs didn't fuck up things too?  But you can't deny their rights on that land, the same rights the Jews have.  Politicians always make mistakes, and normal people ends paying for those mistakes.  Who cares if they didn't want to accept that deal?  This problem needs a solution regardless of who did what.
Again, you're missing the point. There will be no peace unless the Jews or the Arabs are completely removed from the region. This is because the Arabs will not accept the presence of Jews or a Jewish state in the region under any conditions. This means negotiating a solution is impossible.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6791|SE London

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:


Yes, I acknowledged that there were Arabs in the region, but that fact is irrelevant. This is because like any established country today, there was a time when it was not formally a country but still had people living on its land. By your logic, we could go back and argue like this about every country on earth. The only reason why this topic is even this common is due to the turmoil in that region. The key here is that there was no formal country of Palestine at the time.
True, there was no formal country of Palestine or Israel.  But you can't bury centuries of history only for 60 years.  The fair thing to do would be the creation of 2 States with their own borders.
Funny you should mention that. Initially all of Israel and Jordan were promised to the Jews (1917 Balfour Declaration). As a result of Arab pressure on the UK, the land was split with 76% of it going to the Arabs (to become Jordan) and 24% being given to the Jews. Of that 24%, the UN was then going to split it further, giving half to the Jews and half to the Arabs. Guess what? The Jews accepted the partition while the Arabs rejected every single proposal offered unconditionally (the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN Partition Plan etc...). The fact of the matter is that even though the Jews were only being offered a tiny fraction of what was initially theirs, they accepted while the Arabs rejected time and time again and chose to go to war instead. The Jews were willing to share and live in peace while the Arabs weren't.
Just a few quotes from Jewish sources, that make it look like the Jews were not willing to share.

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."
Zionist writer Ahad Ha`am


Proposals for Arab-Jewish Cooperation
"An article by Yitzhak Epstein, published in Hashiloah in 1907… called for a new Zionist policy towards the Arabs after 30 years of settlement activity…Like Ahad-Ha`am in 1891, Epstein claims that no good land is vacant, so Jewish settlement meant Arab dispossession …Epstein `s solution to the problem, so that a new ‘Jewish Question’ may be avoided, is the creation of a bi-national, non-exclusive program of settlement and development. Purchasing land should not involve the dispossession of poor sharecroppers. It should mean creating a joint farming community, where the Arabs will enjoy modern technology. Schools, hospitals and libraries should be non-exclusivist and education bilingual… The vision of the non-exclusivist, peaceful cooperation to replace the practice of dispossession found few takers. Epstein was maligned and scorned for his faintheartedness."
Israeli author, Benjamin Beit- Hallahmi,
Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6856
Link to source?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6791|SE London

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Link to source?
1st one is from 'The Truth from Palestine (1891)' - it's a book, so I can't link to it directly - there are many references to it online though. http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp is one of the many places you can find it.

The 2nd is not so well sourced but can be found here and the book 'Original Sins' by Benjamin Beit- Hallahmi is freely available (ISBN 1-56656-130-2).

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-11-23 09:41:13)

[UTQ]_Ausch88
Banned
+23|6705

sergeriver wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

[UTQ]_Ausch88 wrote:

read my post again.. i don't want the jews to be wiped.. i want ISRAEL to be wiped.. doesnt mean to kill all the jews over there.. stop thinking that everybody want you all dead.. we are in 2006

the leader of IRAN want ISRAEL to be wiped from the map..  he mean he want the COUNTRY of ISRAEL to be erased..destroyed.. not to kill all the ISRAELIS!!

he just want them to be relocated to a place where they belong..in germany for example.. you know it was the german who mistreated the jews in WW2.. not the muslims.. so why create a country in the middle of their land?

and stop calling me with that name.. not because i don't agree with you that im automatically a nazi
Ok, I did.  Here is what you wrote:


Jews want to infect...?  Clean your land of this infection?
It sounds very Nazi to me.
nazis wanted to KILL all the jews.. thats is what you keep saying for 60 years now

i say don't kill them.. i think every human being have the right to live peacefully  even the big bad muslims!

i say ISRAELIS will never live in peace in ISRAEL.. because they keep grabing land and bombing their neighbors (sp?)

i say find a peaceful land for all the ISRAELIS and move them there.. keep sending 5 billions dollars every year over there if you want but at least everybody will be happy.. palestinains will have their land back, ISRAELIS will live in peace with good neighbors (sp?)
At this moment the land should belong to both Israelis and Palestinians.  The part I condemn from your post is where you say "send all those bastard back to AMERICA or whatever country they want to infect" and "clean your land from this infection".
bad choice of word i agree and i apologize for that.  i was pissed when i looked at that video or the first time and saw that unarmed palestinian get shot in the back by israeli soldiers

my opinion is that the two state solution will never work

arabs will keep their rocket attacks against ISRAEL and ISRAEL will keep retaliating by destroying homes and bridges.

only solution is to remove the invader.. and give the land back to their rightful owner
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6771

sergeriver wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

defining events:
subject being apprehended
subject makes grab for soldiers gun
subject is released as top priority is changed to maintaining control of weapons
subject ignores stop order, and is shot in leg
Which ignores the fact that most of the video consists of the evil Muslim murderer walking peacefully away.
That is out of question.  What is on the table is the fact that this guy Auschwitz88 or whatever said that the jews were infecting the land.  I support Palestine but I don't want the Jews to be wiped.
It's what kr@cker's talking about.  And technically the guy was saying they should leave Israel and go somewhere else, in the belief that they would ruin wherver they went.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6771

kr@cker wrote:

walking peacefully away?
you try taking a cop's gun and walk peacefully away, maybe even say "nawww I'm just kiddin', you guys  are great!", and see what happens.
Good point.  You shouldn't do that to a cop.  He did it to an occupation soldier attempting to detain him, though.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6967|Argentina

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fancy_Pollux wrote:


Funny you should mention that. Initially all of Israel and Jordan were promised to the Jews (1917 Balfour Declaration). As a result of Arab pressure on the UK, the land was split with 76% of it going to the Arabs (to become Jordan) and 24% being given to the Jews. Of that 24%, the UN was then going to split it further, giving half to the Jews and half to the Arabs. Guess what? The Jews accepted the partition while the Arabs rejected every single proposal offered unconditionally (the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN Partition Plan etc...). The fact of the matter is that even though the Jews were only being offered a tiny fraction of what was initially theirs, they accepted while the Arabs rejected time and time again and chose to go to war instead. The Jews were willing to share and live in peace while the Arabs weren't.
Who says Arabs didn't fuck up things too?  But you can't deny their rights on that land, the same rights the Jews have.  Politicians always make mistakes, and normal people ends paying for those mistakes.  Who cares if they didn't want to accept that deal?  This problem needs a solution regardless of who did what.
Again, you're missing the point. There will be no peace unless the Jews or the Arabs are completely removed from the region. This is because the Arabs will not accept the presence of Jews or a Jewish state in the region under any conditions. This means negotiating a solution is impossible.
Well, I'm a bit naive and I still think there's room for negotiation.

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