Poll

Should Army Members Be Allowed to Give Their Views About Politics?

Never14%14% - 10
Yes, like any citizen59%59% - 40
Only if they are not on duty19%19% - 13
Only if they are talking to another Army member5%5% - 4
Total: 67
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6631|Kyiv, Ukraine
If you read further down in Article 88 and the other one that applies to enlisted members (Article 89), you can actually criticize the policies and actions of those listed in an open debate situation, a classroom situation, and put it to press.  In practice, this is still not done however (from my experience).  I had to correct a Lt. Colonel of 24 years on that when he tried to slam another classmate for "dissent" during a political discussion at our Arabic language class.  The assignment was to debate American politics, in Arabic, being able to formulate opinions and such.  The girl (another E-4) was openly slamming administration policy (also allowed under article 88) on Iraq.  You can criticize policy and law to your heart's content, you just can't make any personal attacks on the listed individuals.  The UCMJ is actually one of the most "liberal", fair, and advanced (not to mention "simple and easy to read") set of laws that govern anyone in this country.  I just hate to see it trashed like it has been in the last 3 years since I've been out.

Here's the rest of Article 88, just so it's not taken out of context:
Explanation.

The official or legislature against whom the words are used must be occupying one of the offices or be one of the legislatures named in Article 88 at the time of the offense. Neither “Congress” nor “legislature” includes its members individually. “Governor” does not include “lieutenant governor.” It is immaterial whether the words are used against the official in an official or private capacity. If not personally contemptuous, ad-verse criticism of one of the officials or legislatures named in the article in the course of a political discussion, even though emphatically expressed, may not be charged as a violation of the article.

Similarly, expressions of opinion made in a purely private conversation should not rdinarily be charged. Giving broad circulation to a written publication containing contemptuous words of the kind made punishable by this article, or the utterance of contemptuous words of this kind in the presence of military subordinates, aggravates the offense. The truth or falsity of the statements is immaterial.
The intention of the article is just so you can't say "STFU" to a superior officer, and shouldn't in any way prohibit political expression.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitive … /mcm88.htm
Full text of article 88 - not including defenses (on the books elsewhere)

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/ … 134410.htm
This is the current general order regarding political activities of those in uniform, it has been subtlely changed over the last 3 years.  Disobeying this carries the lesser charge of "Disobeying an order", Article 90(?) Basically, this just says you can't attend political functions (rallies and such) in uniform while you are active duty, you can't give money or gifts to service members running for office, and you can't run for office while you have a service obligation when it would take you away from your military duties.  It doesn't countermand article 88 in any way.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2006-11-17 01:08:19)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

jonsimon wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Fester53D&E wrote:

In the US, the Congress has allowed the military to be governed under the UCMJ as cited above.  From a former Marine Officer's perspective, the UCMJ supersedes the constitution as it governs what military members can and can't do.  For example it allows a commanding officer of sufficient rank to impression members in his command. 

As for the not speaking about elected officials, the way it's most easily explained is that if someone in the military is interviewed or quoted about virtually anything, (especially if he or she is in uniform), it is not the individual speaking, but the organization he or she represents.  So if you have a young Private or Lieutenant that blasts an elected official in public, it can be perceived as official statement and/or policy that applies to the entire service.   You don't want Privates or Lieutenants setting policy for the services!
That is clear.  What I don't get is, how can a law be above the Constitution?
Theoretically it can't. But in practice it's simple, just ignore the constitution and suppress anyone that points it out.
*cough* income taxes *cough*
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6807|Southeastern USA
while on duty they have to make sure of 2 things, they're not fomenting dissent in the ranks, and they're not interfering with the command structure. epecially when in a combat zone. other than that, who cares, let them speak.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

FederalRepublic wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

FederalRepublic wrote:


I never joined the military so I'm curious as to what ways the Constitution is contradicted?
The contracted ability to supress freedom of speech, to bear arms, search and seizure, etc.  An example...correspondence is not private.  The topic at hand is another example...not being able to dissent against your political leaders, even if they are not your superiors.  I also believe there are laws within the UCMJ that say you can object to morally wrong orders..but try arguing that decision legally if you took it! lol
I'm curious... how are those unconstitutional?
If you do not have privacy and/or censorship with your mail because of UCMJ rules (which, as someone said best "supercedes the constitution"), then that's not jiving with the constitutional right to retain your privacy.  This is the context with which I'm saying they contradict.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6807|Southeastern USA
actually when you sign up to join the military you are signing up to sacrifice some of your privacy and rights, sad but true, the marine corp owns you
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7015|Argentina

kr@cker wrote:

actually when you sign up to join the military you are signing up to sacrifice some of your privacy and rights, sad but true, the marine corp owns you
So, it's only a matter of good will leaving behind all your citizen rights against what Constitution gave you before.  This private contract between you and the Army is above the Constitution.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6807|Southeastern USA
when it tangles with the constitution it gets really tricky, but yes you do sign a "rights waiver" basically otherwise you wouldn't get courts martial instead of your regular style hearings and such

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-11-17 16:17:45)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7015|Argentina

kr@cker wrote:

when it tangles with the constitution it gets really tricky, but yes you do sign a "rights waiver" basically otherwise you wouldn't get courts martial instead of your regular style hearings and such
Good point.
Dec45
Member
+12|6899

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

If you choose to serve: STFU, it's in the contract.  Don't sign it if you don't like it.
If you are conscripted: Then you shouldn't be forced to change or hide your views about elected officials.  And you shouldn't be put in front of a firing squad for them either.  Sadly, in reality, you'll probably have to choose between the two...
So if someone is willing to die for YOU, you're not willing to give them an opinion and you tell them to STFU? You're a real winner, kid.
millhous
Member
+39|6895|OREEGONE, USA

kr@cker wrote:

actually when you sign up to join the military you are signing up to sacrifice some of your privacy and rights, sad but true, the marine corp owns you
Pretty much sums it up.  They even explain it to you when you're signing the contract (at least they did with me) to READ and RE-READ everything your signing.  If you had any questions, you were allowed to consult someone about it.
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6911

Dec45 wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

If you choose to serve: STFU, it's in the contract.  Don't sign it if you don't like it.
If you are conscripted: Then you shouldn't be forced to change or hide your views about elected officials.  And you shouldn't be put in front of a firing squad for them either.  Sadly, in reality, you'll probably have to choose between the two...
So if someone is willing to die for YOU, you're not willing to give them an opinion and you tell them to STFU? You're a real winner, kid.
If they sign a contract which overrules the right to freely express their opinions then, yes, they should stick to it.  People should try and change moronic laws/clauses, rather than agreeing to abide by them even if they have no intention of doing so.

I'd actually rather that it wasn't a term of service.  As far as I'm aware, and after a quick trawl through the Army Act 1955 and various other documents I can't see where it is prohibited for UK soldiers.  But my statement refers to specific example from the OP where I was asked about my opinion on this kind of prohibition.  My opinion is if it's in the contract and the soldiers agreed to it, then fine.  If it's not in the contract and the government paying their wages doesn't feel the need to supress their views, then great.  If they were conscripted to fight and not given a choice in the matter, then it's bad.  Clear?

If you really think people should be able to sign contracts then break them whenever the fuck they feel like it without consequence, then it's clear who the real winner is... kid.
Dec45
Member
+12|6899

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Dec45 wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

If you choose to serve: STFU, it's in the contract.  Don't sign it if you don't like it.
If you are conscripted: Then you shouldn't be forced to change or hide your views about elected officials.  And you shouldn't be put in front of a firing squad for them either.  Sadly, in reality, you'll probably have to choose between the two...
So if someone is willing to die for YOU, you're not willing to give them an opinion and you tell them to STFU? You're a real winner, kid.
If they sign a contract which overrules the right to freely express their opinions then, yes, they should stick to it.  People should try and change moronic laws/clauses, rather than agreeing to abide by them even if they have no intention of doing so.

I'd actually rather that it wasn't a term of service.  As far as I'm aware, and after a quick trawl through the Army Act 1955 and various other documents I can't see where it is prohibited for UK soldiers.  But my statement refers to specific example from the OP where I was asked about my opinion on this kind of prohibition.  My opinion is if it's in the contract and the soldiers agreed to it, then fine.  If it's not in the contract and the government paying their wages doesn't feel the need to supress their views, then great.  If they were conscripted to fight and not given a choice in the matter, then it's bad.  Clear?

If you really think people should be able to sign contracts then break them whenever the fuck they feel like it without consequence, then it's clear who the real winner is... kid.
And what, do you feel are the chances of that contract ever being changed?

I also find it funny how your initial post was blatantly childish, involving a STFU, and in being criticized you make a post which involves some degree of reason.

Last edited by Dec45 (2006-11-19 15:26:07)

UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6911

Dec45 wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Dec45 wrote:


So if someone is willing to die for YOU, you're not willing to give them an opinion and you tell them to STFU? You're a real winner, kid.
If they sign a contract which overrules the right to freely express their opinions then, yes, they should stick to it.  People should try and change moronic laws/clauses, rather than agreeing to abide by them even if they have no intention of doing so.

I'd actually rather that it wasn't a term of service.  As far as I'm aware, and after a quick trawl through the Army Act 1955 and various other documents I can't see where it is prohibited for UK soldiers.  But my statement refers to specific example from the OP where I was asked about my opinion on this kind of prohibition.  My opinion is if it's in the contract and the soldiers agreed to it, then fine.  If it's not in the contract and the government paying their wages doesn't feel the need to supress their views, then great.  If they were conscripted to fight and not given a choice in the matter, then it's bad.  Clear?

If you really think people should be able to sign contracts then break them whenever the fuck they feel like it without consequence, then it's clear who the real winner is... kid.
And what, do you feel are the chances of that contract ever being changed?

I also find it funny how your initial post was blatantly childish, involving a STFU, and in being criticized you make a post which involves some degree of reason.
a) says you
b) nah ni nah ni nah nah
c) i'd already elaborated when you attacked my simplified, rapid fire opinion on the subject
d) i don't have time to write an essay for every post these days
e) it stimulated some interesting posts
f) aside from flaming me, your contribution to this thread has been sweet FA.
Dec45
Member
+12|6899

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Dec45 wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:


If they sign a contract which overrules the right to freely express their opinions then, yes, they should stick to it.  People should try and change moronic laws/clauses, rather than agreeing to abide by them even if they have no intention of doing so.

I'd actually rather that it wasn't a term of service.  As far as I'm aware, and after a quick trawl through the Army Act 1955 and various other documents I can't see where it is prohibited for UK soldiers.  But my statement refers to specific example from the OP where I was asked about my opinion on this kind of prohibition.  My opinion is if it's in the contract and the soldiers agreed to it, then fine.  If it's not in the contract and the government paying their wages doesn't feel the need to supress their views, then great.  If they were conscripted to fight and not given a choice in the matter, then it's bad.  Clear?

If you really think people should be able to sign contracts then break them whenever the fuck they feel like it without consequence, then it's clear who the real winner is... kid.
And what, do you feel are the chances of that contract ever being changed?

I also find it funny how your initial post was blatantly childish, involving a STFU, and in being criticized you make a post which involves some degree of reason.
a) says you
b) nah ni nah ni nah nah
c) i'd already elaborated when you attacked my simplified, rapid fire opinion on the subject
d) i don't have time to write an essay for every post these days
e) it stimulated some interesting posts
f) aside from flaming me, your contribution to this thread has been sweet FA.
I didn't realize, "You're a real winner, kid" was flaming. Especially when it's pertaining to telling soldiers to shut the fuck up. Um Sorry?
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6911

Dec45 wrote:

I didn't realize, "You're a real winner, kid" was flaming. Especially when it's pertaining to telling soldiers to shut the fuck up. Um Sorry?
You used it in the sarcastic sense.  Hence you were trying to call me a loser.  And if you didn't realise that calling someone a loser in a debate was flaming, then I'm starting to understand why you misunderstood my post in the first place.

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