War, war and more war. It just fills the headlines every day and depresses the hell outta me. I dont let it really get me down but I have to live with this my government spinning the idea of fear everyda. Im only 18, I grew up at the end of the Cold War era, I know about Bosnia, Iraq round 1, the Congo, Somalia and all the stuff you expect to happen in a world were people perpetually cant agree on their groceries let alone policy or morality. Why is the West attacking Iraq? Why bother to screw up what was already screwed up. We create democracy and leave behind anarchy. 100's are kindnapped everyday in Iraq by its own police commandoes waging a secterian war against the Sunni's who put down the Shia'its under Saddam. Tony Blair admits that Iraq is a disaster, America is considering pulling out after the recent congressional election damaging the Republican's dominance in the House and Senate. What would we leave behind now? Its immoral to leave this, western culture dictates some sort of responsibility for your actions. I never supported the War on Terror and I dont believe Al' Qaeda existed until the US Courts decided to pin 9/11 on an organisation in order to prosecute suspects. The media feed like lion's to a carrcus at the carnage everyday in Iraq and Afganistan. We have been fighting over religion, and democracy for centuries - the Crusades for one - and have never come to an agreement. Why cant us stupid and arrogant westerners understand that we all have our own ways and others dont wish the 'saviour' of the west to come and free them when they feel those in weak countries are being oppressed. It creates even greater problems than it solves as restructuring of government creates ecnonomic problems and a power vacuum for anyone to jump into and try to grab power - people are like that - we all crave wealth and achievement in one way or another. I dont think the old Russia/US peaceful cooexistence applies to the Middle East and really most people there just want their lives back, their love ones and so do we! I guess we gotta learn to keep those hands out of the fire - they just arent burned off yet - just numbed so we will only notice when its too late.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.nighthawk843 wrote:
I dont believe Al' Qaeda existed until the US Courts decided to pin 9/11 on an organisation in order to prosecute suspects.
In a way, I can sympathize with the notion that we shouldn't impose our values on the rest of the world. On the other hand, a large portion of non-Westerners are moving to our countries in the West. I think this demonstrates that we have a superior economic system, if not a superior range of cultures.
Most developing countries are striving for economic Westernization, but some of that eventually requires a cultural Westernization as well. The Middle East is basically resisting the inevitable. The radical religious leaders of the Middle East see a threat in the enticing privileges that Western lifestyles can afford people. Slowly but surely, many Muslims are turning away from the oppressive traditions of the old ways, and they are getting a taste of Western capitalism. One particularly interesting case is Iran. Iran is one of the most economically Western countries in the Middle East, and their people have slowly started to experience a better life through a better standard of living. Culturally, they had been moving in a Western direction under the Shah, but apparently, the religious people didn't want to give women equal rights.
Hopefully, the Islamic World will slowly realize that gender equality and democracy are the best cultural traits to evolve towards as they economically develop. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of Muslims that are mentally enslaved by tradition and religious dogma.
So, ultimately, it is not a matter of us forcing Westernization on these people, but of them discovering that freedom is the best cultural value a society can have.
Most developing countries are striving for economic Westernization, but some of that eventually requires a cultural Westernization as well. The Middle East is basically resisting the inevitable. The radical religious leaders of the Middle East see a threat in the enticing privileges that Western lifestyles can afford people. Slowly but surely, many Muslims are turning away from the oppressive traditions of the old ways, and they are getting a taste of Western capitalism. One particularly interesting case is Iran. Iran is one of the most economically Western countries in the Middle East, and their people have slowly started to experience a better life through a better standard of living. Culturally, they had been moving in a Western direction under the Shah, but apparently, the religious people didn't want to give women equal rights.
Hopefully, the Islamic World will slowly realize that gender equality and democracy are the best cultural traits to evolve towards as they economically develop. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of Muslims that are mentally enslaved by tradition and religious dogma.
So, ultimately, it is not a matter of us forcing Westernization on these people, but of them discovering that freedom is the best cultural value a society can have.
+1, that's all I can say.nighthawk843 wrote:
War, war and more war. It just fills the headlines every day and depresses the hell outta me. I dont let it really get me down but I have to live with this my government spinning the idea of fear everyda. Im only 18, I grew up at the end of the Cold War era, I know about Bosnia, Iraq round 1, the Congo, Somalia and all the stuff you expect to happen in a world were people perpetually cant agree on their groceries let alone policy or morality. Why is the West attacking Iraq? Why bother to screw up what was already screwed up. We create democracy and leave behind anarchy. 100's are kindnapped everyday in Iraq by its own police commandoes waging a secterian war against the Sunni's who put down the Shia'its under Saddam. Tony Blair admits that Iraq is a disaster, America is considering pulling out after the recent congressional election damaging the Republican's dominance in the House and Senate. What would we leave behind now? Its immoral to leave this, western culture dictates some sort of responsibility for your actions. I never supported the War on Terror and I dont believe Al' Qaeda existed until the US Courts decided to pin 9/11 on an organisation in order to prosecute suspects. The media feed like lion's to a carrcus at the carnage everyday in Iraq and Afganistan. We have been fighting over religion, and democracy for centuries - the Crusades for one - and have never come to an agreement. Why cant us stupid and arrogant westerners understand that we all have our own ways and others dont wish the 'saviour' of the west to come and free them when they feel those in weak countries are being oppressed. It creates even greater problems than it solves as restructuring of government creates ecnonomic problems and a power vacuum for anyone to jump into and try to grab power - people are like that - we all crave wealth and achievement in one way or another. I dont think the old Russia/US peaceful cooexistence applies to the Middle East and really most people there just want their lives back, their love ones and so do we! I guess we gotta learn to keep those hands out of the fire - they just arent burned off yet - just numbed so we will only notice when its too late.
It's sad, and I can't remember the guy who actually did all the research on it, but there are only 29 years in all of documented human history where there wasn't a war going on somewhere on the planet. One of my classes spent two days discussing what this showed about human nature.
+1? He thinks Al Queda wasn't even formed until the 9/11 attacks:jonsimon wrote:
+1, that's all I can say.
The blind leading the blind...nighthawk843 wrote:
I dont believe Al' Qaeda existed until the US Courts decided to pin 9/11 on an organisation in order to prosecute suspects.
That's all I read. In case you haven't noticed, human history is peppered with war. Nothing's really changed, other than increased capacity for rapid deployment and the acquisition of more efficient methods for killing.nighthawk843 wrote:
War, war and more war.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-11-18 23:28:23)
Damn hippie tree huggers... learn history.
Fancy boy. I guess your the smart ass here and yes my arguement was incoherent at times. Fair enough and thankyou for the criticism. I am not misled about Al' Qaeda as an organisation. Osama's terrorist branch does not have the name Al' Qaeda in fact we havent found him to ask him what it was called, he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef to bring about the end of non-islamic governments. Thats fact and in US law you have to prosecute terrorists under an organisation name like the IRA in order for a strong conviction, the problem was the court didnt have a name for them as those involved in plotting 9/11 didnt give a organisational name. The reason why there are so many in Guantanemo is because the US cant actually prosecute them. Another Human Rights fuck up! Those who were on the planest that hit the twin towers were obviously dead. SO the US decided to use the tag name Al Qaedi so they could prosecute quckly. The press caught on and now it is the name uniformly used for anyone suspected of terrorism. A grave miscarriage of justice. We dont even know really if Osama was in any way involved in the 9/11 attacks except from what US intelligence tells us. As you probably know US intelligence is usually misread by everyone....including the President to mean...yes its them lets kill them i.e. the modern day Iraq. Dont believe what you read in the papers, they are fools and it seems to be you are too.
Nothing closer to the truth could be said.nighthawk843 wrote:
I guess your the smart ass here
Welcome to the forums. Don't take notice of people that act like idiots.
Mcminty.
haha, billy madison FTW!!Fancy_Pollux wrote:
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.nighthawk843 wrote:
I dont believe Al' Qaeda existed until the US Courts decided to pin 9/11 on an organisation in order to prosecute suspects.
Browse news archives. I've been seeing and hearing the name al-qaeda since the early 90's when you were in grade school and didn't watch the news. Even if you believe that we game them that name, why does it even matter? You say above that "he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef." So did it exist or not? Fancy can be a smart ass, but what's wrong with being a smart ass? You're contradicting yourself and he rightfully called you on it.nighthawk843 wrote:
Fancy boy. I guess your the smart ass here and yes my arguement was incoherent at times. Fair enough and thankyou for the criticism. I am not misled about Al' Qaeda as an organisation. Osama's terrorist branch does not have the name Al' Qaeda in fact we havent found him to ask him what it was called, he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef to bring about the end of non-islamic governments. Thats fact and in US law you have to prosecute terrorists under an organisation name like the IRA in order for a strong conviction, the problem was the court didnt have a name for them as those involved in plotting 9/11 didnt give a organisational name. The reason why there are so many in Guantanemo is because the US cant actually prosecute them. Another Human Rights fuck up! Those who were on the planest that hit the twin towers were obviously dead. SO the US decided to use the tag name Al Qaedi so they could prosecute quckly. The press caught on and now it is the name uniformly used for anyone suspected of terrorism. A grave miscarriage of justice. We dont even know really if Osama was in any way involved in the 9/11 attacks except from what US intelligence tells us. As you probably know US intelligence is usually misread by everyone....including the President to mean...yes its them lets kill them i.e. the modern day Iraq. Dont believe what you read in the papers, they are fools and it seems to be you are too.
Finally, go study history. The things happening in the world today have been going on as long as people have been here. Every country and culture in the world has been party to (and victim of) raping, killing, mutilating, oppressing and invading at one time or another. Even the gentle, peaceful Tibetans were once bloodthirty marauders. Nothing has changed except the weaponry. What you can do to help is to get your facts straight, make an informed decision, and exercise your newly granted right to vote. Please don't do the latter without doing the former.
There is a legitimate argument to be made that al-Qaeda does not exist as the organization the US courts have used to prosecute people. In fact, we don't really know jack-squat about them, so they could be anything from imaginary to the well organized army of evil muslim extremists the warmongers want us to believe they are.chittydog wrote:
Browse news archives. I've been seeing and hearing the name al-qaeda since the early 90's when you were in grade school and didn't watch the news. Even if you believe that we game them that name, why does it even matter? You say above that "he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef." So did it exist or not? Fancy can be a smart ass, but what's wrong with being a smart ass? You're contradicting yourself and he rightfully called you on it.nighthawk843 wrote:
Fancy boy. I guess your the smart ass here and yes my arguement was incoherent at times. Fair enough and thankyou for the criticism. I am not misled about Al' Qaeda as an organisation. Osama's terrorist branch does not have the name Al' Qaeda in fact we havent found him to ask him what it was called, he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef to bring about the end of non-islamic governments. Thats fact and in US law you have to prosecute terrorists under an organisation name like the IRA in order for a strong conviction, the problem was the court didnt have a name for them as those involved in plotting 9/11 didnt give a organisational name. The reason why there are so many in Guantanemo is because the US cant actually prosecute them. Another Human Rights fuck up! Those who were on the planest that hit the twin towers were obviously dead. SO the US decided to use the tag name Al Qaedi so they could prosecute quckly. The press caught on and now it is the name uniformly used for anyone suspected of terrorism. A grave miscarriage of justice. We dont even know really if Osama was in any way involved in the 9/11 attacks except from what US intelligence tells us. As you probably know US intelligence is usually misread by everyone....including the President to mean...yes its them lets kill them i.e. the modern day Iraq. Dont believe what you read in the papers, they are fools and it seems to be you are too.
Finally, go study history. The things happening in the world today have been going on as long as people have been here. Every country and culture in the world has been party to (and victim of) raping, killing, mutilating, oppressing and invading at one time or another. Even the gentle, peaceful Tibetans were once bloodthirty marauders. Nothing has changed except the weaponry. What you can do to help is to get your facts straight, make an informed decision, and exercise your newly granted right to vote. Please don't do the latter without doing the former.
Thankyou for that, at least someone speaks after they have thought. Chittydog I dont see the relevance of your last para. Your rambling on worse than me!jonsimon wrote:
There is a legitimate argument to be made that al-Qaeda does not exist as the organization the US courts have used to prosecute people. In fact, we don't really know jack-squat about them, so they could be anything from imaginary to the well organized army of evil muslim extremists the warmongers want us to believe they are.chittydog wrote:
Browse news archives. I've been seeing and hearing the name al-qaeda since the early 90's when you were in grade school and didn't watch the news. Even if you believe that we game them that name, why does it even matter? You say above that "he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef." So did it exist or not? Fancy can be a smart ass, but what's wrong with being a smart ass? You're contradicting yourself and he rightfully called you on it.nighthawk843 wrote:
Fancy boy. I guess your the smart ass here and yes my arguement was incoherent at times. Fair enough and thankyou for the criticism. I am not misled about Al' Qaeda as an organisation. Osama's terrorist branch does not have the name Al' Qaeda in fact we havent found him to ask him what it was called, he did set up a cell in the 1980's along with Muhammad Atef to bring about the end of non-islamic governments. Thats fact and in US law you have to prosecute terrorists under an organisation name like the IRA in order for a strong conviction, the problem was the court didnt have a name for them as those involved in plotting 9/11 didnt give a organisational name. The reason why there are so many in Guantanemo is because the US cant actually prosecute them. Another Human Rights fuck up! Those who were on the planest that hit the twin towers were obviously dead. SO the US decided to use the tag name Al Qaedi so they could prosecute quckly. The press caught on and now it is the name uniformly used for anyone suspected of terrorism. A grave miscarriage of justice. We dont even know really if Osama was in any way involved in the 9/11 attacks except from what US intelligence tells us. As you probably know US intelligence is usually misread by everyone....including the President to mean...yes its them lets kill them i.e. the modern day Iraq. Dont believe what you read in the papers, they are fools and it seems to be you are too.
Finally, go study history. The things happening in the world today have been going on as long as people have been here. Every country and culture in the world has been party to (and victim of) raping, killing, mutilating, oppressing and invading at one time or another. Even the gentle, peaceful Tibetans were once bloodthirty marauders. Nothing has changed except the weaponry. What you can do to help is to get your facts straight, make an informed decision, and exercise your newly granted right to vote. Please don't do the latter without doing the former.