Sud
Member
+0|6739
I had a semi-related topic about how I was experiencing a double standard of sorts when playing online battlefield. I wanted to try my luck here as that thread got somewhat derailed and I was looking for a fresher audience, and this is a topic that deserves its own discussion.

When I was taking a video of a demo I recorded of myself performing a trick jump (it gets you to the top of the hotel in Karkand, and no, it's not the way shown on secretsofbattlefield.com, it's actually a much safer, easier, reliable way), I noticed something extremely odd when I watched the demo over again.

In this video which I've taken from that demo, you can see straight up what I'm talking about when I mention "damage double standard". From my viewpoint playing the game, I run into square, skirmish a little with 4-5 bots, and run away deciding not to want to fight that many. Most of the shots that hit me will never register on my screen - it's as if they never were fired. Keep in mind this is SINGLE PLAYER and bots DONT LAG. When I arrive at the stairs to the house by square, I pull out my medkit, and proceed to take 9 more hits to the back of the head as I ascend the stairs (I was 1/3rd bars remaining, almost dead). I receive no healing except the slow regen from having the bag out.

http://members.shaw.ca/jshosted/bulleteating.mpg

it is 8 megs, a small download if you're on cable, should only take a minute to take a look over.

Some facts:

- 50-75% of the shots you will see land on me are "no registers" on my screen. I note taking no damage.

- Enemies are the blue names, allies are the red. Viewpoint of the replay apparently.

- This occured in single player, vs bots on easy mode (I do not think that bots receive a damage reduction on easy, most people seem to agree they just receive an accuracy decrease. In this situation, the bots shots were accurate, almost no misses)

- No cheats or settings other than the defaults for the single player game of Karkand are used. If this becomes questioned, I can provide the demo file.

- I am a medic (no armor). I receive no healing other than some slow regen that I get from pulling out the bag while running up the stairs. The healing shouldn't have even mattered - I should have died twice from the damage

- The sound is left in the video on purpose. You can confirm each hit by hearing the "FWAP" sound of the bullet striking body. You can also see my head visibly reeling - the game acknowledges I've been hit, but my client does not.

I would really appreciate any feedback or ideas on what is going on here. This is an issue for me that I experience when I play multiplayer games a LOT (I usually have to put an incredible amount of fire into someone to kill them). In this case, single player, it's the mirror - I'm taking hits, and not acknowedging them.

Last edited by Sud (2005-12-19 00:02:33)

Maj.Do
Member
+85|6744|good old CA
weird
Sud
Member
+0|6739
It's nothing I haven't seen demonstrated from the engine before though. I suspect it's very possible that there are some hitbox glitches with the game that have not been cleaned up (as most of EA's bugs it seems )

Have you ever been in a tank and actually took a hit that registered yet did no damage? I have. I come across an enemy tank, and I blast him. He blasts me back. The shot is dead on, I hear the metal on metal clang, I see my screen shake... but... no damage? I've also had the opposite happen, where enemy tanks will ignore hits lodged against them as well.

On the infantry level, it seems very easy to just pass it off as "lag" or "bad aim" but, when it occurs in a lagless, perfectly aimed environment, it makes you wonder, just how many legitimate shots are not being tallied. For me, it would seem alot when I play online. In this situation, I had no business making it out of square, let alone up those stairs. When shots land, they tear people apart, especially those with no armor.

Last edited by Sud (2005-12-19 00:11:17)

Rapturesan
An African or European swallow?
+0|6719
I experience the EXACT same thing sometimes. Most of the time I take people down fairly fast, but from time to time there are people (of all classes) who just keep getting hit and not getting killed. I only play on small 16-40 player servers with ping <150 so I doubt that it is lag. A very odd occurrence indeed.

I also experience the tank damage bug, a lot.


-Edit- This is definately something MAJOR:
I recorded some of myself playing with battle recorder (I'll fraps it later maybe) and notice the EXACT same thing. I played one round completely as engineer and one round as anti-tank. I made it a habit of finding cover and poke my head out, when I first got hit (in game) I would jump back behind my barrier. On the demos it shows me staying out in the open LONG after I got hit MULTIPLE times. I noticed a few other things:

•It always happened at medium-long range, at close range the expert bots are so accurate that they kill you when they hit you.

•The ammount of smoke puffs that hit you is NOT related to how much damage they do. I had one encounter with a bot at medium range where he hit me about 10 times with his m16 (distinctive 3-shot burst sound). I had another encounter at the same range +/- a foot with another m16-weilder, this time it took 20+ smoke puffs for me to die.

•It seems that the smoke puffs are simply additional indicators of you hitting, not that you are doing damage.

•It almost never happened when I was being hit with heavier guns, AK-101s and .50 cal machine guns never do this. M16s and MP5/PP-19s do this A LOT.




My theory:

When you fire weapons (especially lower powered weapons) in BF2 although they may hit, they do not always do damage, or do damage that is seen as a hit, but not registered as damage done until later on. I'm guessing that many players' small ammount of armor (on both armored [like assault] and unarmored [like medic] kits) "absorb" bullets from time to time, the less powerful your weapon the more shots your enemy absorbs. This means that no matter what, a more powerful gun will always beat a faster firing/more accurate gun.

This is also a possible explination for getting kills on people who you can no longer visually see. Many times in this game I have killed people who had just finished running around a corner for cover and I can no longer see them, this seems to always happen when I'm shooting them with  G36C or E which would make sense because they both do less damage than other guns in the game. It is a good possibility that along with absorbing hits you can also have delayed damage done to you.

It seems that for every hit you get, you will get an X graphical confirmation along with a puff of smoke coming off the enemy's body to denote that you are hitting, actually doing damage (as opposed to having the shot absorbed) is dependant on two things:
•How far you are away from the target.
•How much damage your gun does.

Why do YOU experience the "double standard" though?
Simple, you get shot without being told you are being damaged.
You are really being damaged over a longer, sterched-out period of time (and this is visible to everyone else including the guy shooting you), but all the damage registers at once, making it seem like you get killed with one bullet.

This however is just a theory, it could be completely wrong, or it could be an incorrect explanation for a phenomena that does in fact happen.

Last edited by Rapturesan (2005-12-19 01:30:21)

OmS-NAS
Member
+1|6752|Oslo, Norway
could it just be the quality of the demo that was recorded?
if im not mistaken, you can set a qualityslider on your demo, that just may ignore some moves if you set it slow enough.

then it just might be that even if you did evasive manuvres it counted as "not hit" but were not shown in the video.
alizard
Member
+0|6768
running behind cover only to die from the guy that can no longer see you is a huge aggrevation for me.... happens constantly. It seems like it's backwards lag. But, I honestly think it's the crappy hit boxes/ damage system in the game. Makes obsolutley no sense when it happens, it just does and ur dead.
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|6701|Charlie One Alpha
I have never seriously encountered this phenomenon as badly as in this video.  I have experienced the thing where you die after the guy shooting can no longer see you, but this was WAY worse in counter-strike source.
In that game, when someone just dissapeared around a corner, you should shoot at him anyway because chances are you'll hit him all the same. So for me this isn't nearly as much of a problem in bf2.

I can only recall one occasion on which I didn't take any damage, and it wasn't with a weak weapon. I was lying prone somewhere, and a sniper shot me, at least I THINK it was a sniper, because it was just one shot aimed at my head. I heard the FWOP sound, saw the impact thingy, and I thought "Holy CRAP! I just got sniped in the face!"
But then I looked at my health bar and it was completely full. I just thought I got lucky and he shot the ground right in front of me or something, but after I read this thread and saw the video I start to wonder.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
4lter_3go
Member
+1|6738|Leighton Barracks, Germany
i have played rounds as medic were my teammates would get shot multiple times but never took any damage. i know this because i would have my pack in my hand. and ive also shot and killed ppl who turn the corners for safety(server ping is always around 100-140, sometimes lower). but this is wierd stuff man

Last edited by 4lter_3go (2005-12-19 08:37:12)

Nyte
Legendary BF2S Veteran
+535|6744|Toronto, ON
This is the same issue which is more easily seen when you knife someone and see the animation where it hits but in actuality, it doesn't register.

It is a hitbox issue in which the hitbox around the chest-neck region is SMALLER than the model itself (You hit the model and it shows them twitch but you aren't hitting the hitbox).
Alpha as fuck.
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|6805
Looks like hack...
Sud
Member
+0|6739
If it was a hitbox issue, wouldn't the shots just pass through? Example, trying to TV missile the rotors/tail of a chopper.

The knife thing I can confirm, I've walked up to snipers and gutted them twice and it took a third hit to finally get him. I can't say with confidence though that it is the model or the hitbox or what. Like in the tank example, there's a lot of tank there, and you can take a shot right to the middle of the tank and the thing actually acknowledges the hit (your screen shakes) but no damage.

The stepping around walls thing I think is a product of the latency prediction engine. I've stepped around corners many a time, or popped up and down prone, only to be killed by the guy shooting me (on my screen, he has no line of sight). You'll remember Half Life TFC netcode was exactly like that - you could step behind a wall and a sniper who had a line of sight to you in the past tense suddenly kills you, because on his screen you were still in view.

In any case I would have to agree with Rapturesan in that this appears to be a very big issue. The comparisons to counter strike are eerie. I could NOT adjust to CS:Source (I'd put clips and clips of gunfire into people for no effect) and I just couldn't figure it out why. Then, the truth was made plain to all (http://media.putfile.com/css_hit_b0x_bb) and I left that game in disgust (I prefer to shoot at people, not Casper the friendly ghost).

Maybe I should put something together and report this as a bug?
BigmacK
Back from the Dead.
+628|6743|Chicago.
Yo, this is kinda off topic, but how do you get the battle recorder to record a battle? I want to see if i get the same thing as you did in the origional post
help me out please
Rapturesan
An African or European swallow?
+0|6719
battlerecorder commands:
press ~
demo.recorddemo (demoname)
demo.stoprecording

Your demo will be in the program files/bf2 folder, you need to move it to the my documents/bf2/mods/profile/default folder to view it after leaving the game.



Anyways, that CS:S stuff is scary. It also seems like the hitbox thing is more likely explanation than mine, so I believe it a lot more that way.
BigmacK
Back from the Dead.
+628|6743|Chicago.
Thanks for the help man. Much appreciated.
DMFDxUconn
Member
+8|6759|Kannapolis,North Carolina
Its because you are on easy mode. Try the harder modes and see how many hits you take, not nearly as many.
Sud
Member
+0|6739
Rapturesan reports the same issue occuring with expert level bots.
Rapturesan
An African or European swallow?
+0|6719

Sud wrote:

Rapturesan reports the same issue occuring with expert level bots.
What he said, I also have done it with my buddy standing at the same distance as those bots were in a multiplayer game with the same results, it isn't exclusive to bots/singleplayer/anything.

Last edited by Rapturesan (2005-12-20 00:38:19)

duckforceone
Member
+3|6715|Denmark
that's just sick... but i probably can't use that excuse for my poor sucky skill... *Grins*
lord_tyler_486
Member
+54|6744|Upper Franconia
I also had knife hits or M95 headshots where that dust cloud appears but the enemy gets no damage... Buggybuggy. Happens often while knife battles and sniping out ppl. of transport vehicles. EA should really fix that

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