Voting and a Paper Trail

2006-11-02 13:39:47

#1

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

With the elections in the US less than a week away I would like to know this. Do you think there should be a paper trail or a "receipt" given to you after you vote? I think the initial obvious answer is yes but when you think about it it doesn't seem to be so obvious. The first thing to consider is this could encourage buying votes. Just take your receipt to your local party office showing your loyalty and get paid. It could also encourage intimidation forcing someone to "prove" they voted for someone or something. The immediate response to this is to have a receipt to say your vote was cast and that it counted and to not say who or how you voted. Doesn't this defeat the purpose in knowing that your vote was indeed cast and counted in the manner you wanted without written proof?

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 13:46:05

#2

IRONCHEF: Member; +385|6748|Northern California

I think the greater importance of a paper trail is to discourage diebold machine hacking/tampering. I know if I go to my precinct on Tuesday and there's a machine that does not produce a paper receipt, I will demand a paper ballot or protest. I certainly will not vote with just a machine.

As for the paper receipt, there should be a way of verifying votes with them if any voting irregularity comes into question. I have no idea how, but there should be some sort of secondary vote tally system using voter reciepts. Orrrr....overhaul the WHOLE voting process in this country...take a day's wages from the Iraq war and produce a fail-safe, unmolested system, and then our democracy will be protected.

2006-11-02 13:59:33

#3

JimmyBotswana: Member; +82|6843|Montreal

Kmarion wrote:
With the elections in the US less than a week away I would like to know this. Do you think there should be a paper trail or a "receipt" given to you after you vote? I think the initial obvious answer is yes but when you think about it it doesn't seem to be so obvious. The first thing to consider is this could encourage buying votes. Just take your receipt to your local party office showing your loyalty and get paid. It could also encourage intimidation forcing someone to "prove" they voted for someone or something. The immediate response to this is to have a receipt to say your vote was cast and that it counted and to not say who or how you voted. Doesn't this defeat the purpose in knowing that your vote was indeed cast and counted in the manner you wanted without written proof?

Uh the paper trail would stay with the elections officials to be counted in case of a recount, so you couldn't take it with you to the local party office or be intimidated into proving who you voted for.

Of course there should be a paper trail. To quote Dick Cheney, it's a no-brainer.

2006-11-02 14:11:03

#4

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

JimmyBotswana wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
With the elections in the US less than a week away I would like to know this. Do you think there should be a paper trail or a "receipt" given to you after you vote? I think the initial obvious answer is yes but when you think about it it doesn't seem to be so obvious. The first thing to consider is this could encourage buying votes. Just take your receipt to your local party office showing your loyalty and get paid. It could also encourage intimidation forcing someone to "prove" they voted for someone or something. The immediate response to this is to have a receipt to say your vote was cast and that it counted and to not say who or how you voted. Doesn't this defeat the purpose in knowing that your vote was indeed cast and counted in the manner you wanted without written proof?
Uh the paper trail would stay with the elections officials to be counted in case of a recount, so you couldn't take it with you to the local party office or be intimidated into proving who you voted for.

Of course there should be a paper trail. To quote Dick Cheney, it's a no-brainer.

The debate is people want concrete evidence in their hands. Not the election officials. People seem to have concern when they walk away from excersing their most important right with only a sticker that says I voted.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 14:13:42

#5

JimmyBotswana: Member; +82|6843|Montreal

I don't know who you have been reading but that is not the point of a paper trail. The machine is supposed to print out a slip of paper, you confirm that that is who you voted for, then you drop it in a box on your way out. If there is a problem with the machine's tabulation of the votes, the slips can be manually counted.

2006-11-02 15:04:05

#6

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

JimmyBotswana wrote:
I don't know who you have been reading but that is not the point of a paper trail. The machine is supposed to print out a slip of paper, you confirm that that is who you voted for, then you drop it in a box on your way out. If there is a problem with the machine's tabulation of the votes, the slips can be manually counted.

I watched the Florida senate debate two nights ago. And you?
Machine tampering or malfunction is only half the debate.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 15:36:16

#7

The_Shipbuilder: Stay the corpse; +261|6758|Los Angeles

How about a dual paper trail, where you get some sort of receipt number - you could go back home and input your number into a web site to verify that your vote was counted correctly.

2006-11-02 16:03:51

#8

TeamZephyr: Maintaining My Rage Since 1975; +124|6787|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia

Receipt? Paper Trail? How about not selling your voting system to corporations and allowing an independant voting group to exist?

In Aus we have the Australian Electoral Commission, which is an independant government organizations that oversees every aspect of voting in Australia, which means no chance of it being "controversial."

2006-11-02 17:17:55

#9

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

TeamZephyr wrote:
Receipt? Paper Trail? How about not selling your voting system to corporations and allowing an independant voting group to exist?

In Aus we have the Australian Electoral Commission, which is an independant government organizations that oversees every aspect of voting in Australia, which means no chance of it being "controversial."

Compulsory Voting right? No chance of being controversial there.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 18:17:53

#10

kr@cker: Bringin' Sexy Back!; +581|6807|Southeastern USA

i'd like a receipt yes, I just love how everyone that was whining over the confusion caused by paper ballots are now whinng over their elimination.

seriously, how are people that were
A) dumb enough to be confused by a butterfly ballot,
and B) dumb enough to not ask for a new one and punched it multiple times instead,
supposed to be trusted with a touch screen computer?

2006-11-02 20:08:58

#11

TeamZephyr: Maintaining My Rage Since 1975; +124|6787|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia

Kmarion wrote:
TeamZephyr wrote:
Receipt? Paper Trail? How about not selling your voting system to corporations and allowing an independant voting group to exist?

In Aus we have the Australian Electoral Commission, which is an independant government organizations that oversees every aspect of voting in Australia, which means no chance of it being "controversial."
Compulsory Voting right? No chance of being controversial there.

Compulsory voting is essential to democracy, because everyone's voice is heard.

2006-11-02 21:48:30

#12

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

TeamZephyr wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
TeamZephyr wrote:
Receipt? Paper Trail? How about not selling your voting system to corporations and allowing an independant voting group to exist?

In Aus we have the Australian Electoral Commission, which is an independant government organizations that oversees every aspect of voting in Australia, which means no chance of it being "controversial."
Compulsory Voting right? No chance of being controversial there.
Compulsory voting is essential to democracy, because everyone's voice is heard.

We need a professional, dedicated organization to handle this. (Each county has a Supervisor of Elections to monitor them).
142,072,000 was the amount of registered voters in our last election (Thats just registered). That's roughly 7 times the population of Australia. You go ahead and see if you can implement Compulsory voting on a number that large. Voting is a right here not an obligation. People are free to abstain if they would like. Chances are a person who doesn't want to vote doesn't care enough to understand the candidate or issues. So what's the point?

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 23:27:18

#13

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6663|North Carolina

I used to be in favor of electronic voting, but after seeing how much Diebold and Sequoia have been fucking things up, I'll take my chances with hanging chads.

2006-11-02 23:28:05

#14

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:
I used to be in favor of electronic voting, but after seeing how much Diebold and Sequoia have been fucking things up, I'll take my chances with hanging chads.

Yea well you don't live in Florida..lol

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 23:32:27

#15

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6663|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
I used to be in favor of electronic voting, but after seeing how much Diebold and Sequoia have been fucking things up, I'll take my chances with hanging chads.
Yea well you don't live in Florida..lol

That, and I'm intelligent enough to know how to use a butterfly ballot. West Palm Beach must have some senile and illiterate mofos.

2006-11-02 23:34:28

#16

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
I used to be in favor of electronic voting, but after seeing how much Diebold and Sequoia have been fucking things up, I'll take my chances with hanging chads.
Yea well you don't live in Florida..lol
That, and I'm intelligent enough to know how to use a butterfly ballot. West Palm Beach must have some senile and illiterate mofos.

It's Florida, who do you think the volunteers are that count. People who maybe don't have 20/20.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-11-02 23:34:43)

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-02 23:50:13

#17

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6663|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion wrote:

Yea well you don't live in Florida..lol
That, and I'm intelligent enough to know how to use a butterfly ballot. West Palm Beach must have some senile and illiterate mofos.
It's Florida, who do you think the volunteers are that count. People who maybe don't have 20/20.

True... unfortunately. The problem with an electronic voting system is that it can very easily be tampered with. A paper system is harder to compromise.

We need a professional staff of vote counters. People with good vision and that are held to legal liabilities. Then, we'd have a better system. The only problem is that it would take a considerable amount of government funds to implement this.

2006-11-02 23:52:37

#18

FrenziedAU: Member; +6|6705|Australia

Regarding compulsory voting:
The most important aspect of it is to stop the governments from pandering to minority groups which vote, ignoring the majorities who do not vote.
If you really don't want to vote, you can pay a AU$50 fine, or simply make an invalid vote (e.g. write "you all suck" across the ballot paper). What compulsory voting really does is gets the people who have an opinion, but are otherwise too lazy to go and vote, to vote - it doesn't really stop people from voting if they really don't want to.

2006-11-02 23:57:56

#19

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

So I am to understand they pander to the people who make the valid votes?
In any sense I find it hard to believe you can make someone care or to not be lazy. But I haven't experienced it so I really don't know.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-03 00:04:37

#20

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6663|North Carolina

I agree, Kmarion. If you have to force people to vote, then perhaps, that indicates the right to vote in that country should be earned rather than given through citizenship.

2006-11-03 00:04:59

#21

FrenziedAU: Member; +6|6705|Australia

Kmarion wrote:
So I am to understand they pander to the people who make the valid votes?
In any sense I find it hard to believe you can make someone care or to not be lazy. But I haven't experienced it so I really don't know.

A lot fewer people make invalid votes (about 4% or so according to here, scroll down a bit and there is a table) in Aus compared to how many people don't vote in the US (60% or so according to here - ballpark figures only, but they illustrate the point). This makes it a lot harder to pander to a specific group.

When I say compulsory voting gets people who otherwise wouldn't to vote, I speak from personal experience. I have never once (in a few years) voted in the university council elections (which would involve walking about 200m and voting), but I have voted in every state/federal election I have been able to.

Edit: Updated Aus invalid votes figure and included a reference.

Last edited by FrenziedAU (2006-11-03 00:14:53)

2006-11-04 21:08:07

#22

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6932|Canberra, AUS

In any case, what's to stop one party secretly encouraging people in a certain area (where they know they'll get more votes) to vote? Is that not distorting the true view of the ENTIRE public?

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2006-11-04 23:48:17

#23

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6858|132 and Bush

Spark wrote:
In any case, what's to stop one party secretly encouraging people in a certain area (where they know they'll get more votes) to vote? Is that not distorting the true view of the ENTIRE public?

It's called campaigning and it's not a secret.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2006-11-04 23:49:00

#24

..teddy..jimmy: Member; +1,393|6907

What are you voting for? Party leaders?

2006-11-04 23:50:06

#25

Masques: Black Panzer Party; +184|6980|Eastern PA

..teddy..jimmy wrote:
What are you voting for? Party leaders?

Parliamentary elections.

BF2S Forums Voting and a Paper Trail

Kmarion wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

TeamZephyr wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Spark wrote:

..teddy..jimmy wrote:

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