The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6757|Los Angeles
This decision means that gay couples may end up with civil unions rather than marriages, which if you believe in equal rights is kind of bullshit, but at the end of the day this is a huge stepping stone for progress.

Note that the three justices who dissented did so only because they wanted to extend FULL MARRIAGE rights. So all seven justices were in favor of civil unions, three were also in favor of marriage. Not one voted against equality. Kickass, my opinion of New Jersey just improved considerably.

Here's a PDF of the decision itself if you're interested.

The Minneapolis Star Tribune wrote:

New Jersey court extends rights, but not marriage, to gay couples

Geoff Mulvihill, Associated Press
TRENTON, N.J. — New Jersey's Supreme Court opened the door to gay marriage Wednesday, ruling that homosexuals are entitled to the same rights as heterosexuals, but leaving it to lawmakers to legalize same-sex unions.

The high court gave lawmakers 180 days to rewrite marriage laws to either include same-sex couples or create a new system of civil unions for them.

The ruling is similar to the 1999 decision in Vermont that led to civil unions there, which offer the benefits of marriage, but not the name.

"Although we cannot find that a fundamental right to same-sex marriage exists in this state, the unequal dispensation of rights and benefits to committed same-sex partners can no longer be tolerated under our state Constitution," Justice Barry T. Albin wrote for the 4-3 majority's decision.

Outside the Supreme Court, news of the ruling caused confusion, with many of the roughly 100 gay marriage supporters outside asking each other what it meant. Many started to agree that they needed to push for a state constitutional amendment to institute gay marriage.

Garden State Equality, New Jersey's main gay and lesbian political organization quickly announced Wednesday that three lawmakers would introduce a bill in the Legislature to get full marriage rights to same-sex couples.

Gay couples in New Jersey can already apply for domestic partnerships under a law the Legislature passed in 2004 giving gay couples some benefits of marriage, such as the right to inherit possessions if there is no will and healthcare coverage for state workers.

Democratic Gov. Jon S. Corzine supports domestic partnerships, but not gay marriage.

Supporters pushing for full gay marriage have had a two-year losing streak in state courts including New York, Washington, and in both Nebraska and Georgia, where voter-approved bans on gay marriage were reinstated.

They also have suffered at the ballot boxes in 15 states where constitutions have been amended to ban same-sex unions.

Cases similar to the one ruled on Wednesday, which was filed by seven by gay New Jersey couples, are pending in California, Connecticut, Iowa and Maryland.

"New Jersey is a stepping stone," said Matt Daniels, president of the Virginia-based Alliance for Marriage, a group pushing for an amendment to the federal Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriage. "It's not about New Jersey."
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California
Good for NJ.  I'm against gay marriage, but I am for this exact type of 'negotiation.'  And it does show excellent progress and hopefully a good precedent for other states.  It gives gays an "equality" they are looking for, and it "protects" the sanctity of marriage for the other side.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina
This is good news, but I just hope that the Supreme Court doesn't interfere with it.

On a related note, a lot of the gay marriage issue would be solved if we just removed marriage from the government.  Just let churches decide for themselves what kind of marriages they want to have.  Civil unions should be the only government recognized institutions in the marriage realm.  That way, religious conservatives can't pull the tradition or religion card and hijack the issue.  It also defuses the divisiveness of the issue in general.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6702|The Land of Scott Walker
Why do homosexuals need to be married?  As I've said before, durable power of attorney and medical power of attorney would achieve the same result.  Heterosexual couples should do both durable and medical to ensure their spouse who knows their wishes is calling the shots, not other family or doctors. 

I think this temporarily solves the issue by giving "equality" and protecting the sanctity of marriage, as Ironchef said.  But I don't think it will stop until full marriage is reached.   The president of Alliance for Marriage summed it up "It's not about New Jersey."  And it's not about marriage either.  It's about forcing society to place homosexual couples on an equal moral standing with heterosexual couples by allowing marriage.  This civil rights line is a massive smokescreen and most of America is falling for it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

Why do homosexuals need to be married?  As I've said before, durable power of attorney and medical power of attorney would achieve the same result.  Heterosexual couples should do both durable and medical to ensure their spouse who knows their wishes is calling the shots, not other family or doctors. 

I think this temporarily solves the issue by giving "equality" and protecting the sanctity of marriage, as Ironchef said.  But I don't think it will stop until full marriage is reached.   The president of Alliance for Marriage summed it up "It's not about New Jersey."  And it's not about marriage either.  It's about forcing society to place homosexual couples on an equal moral standing with heterosexual couples by allowing marriage.  This civil rights line is a massive smokescreen and most of America is falling for it.
I'd actually argue the opposite...  Religion is the smokescreen for homophobia.

Nonetheless, my solution posted above would solve things for both sides.  Just remove the government's connection to marriage, so that churches can decide for themselves what sacred really means.
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6737|Somewhere else

Turquoise wrote:

This is good news, but I just hope that the Supreme Court doesn't interfere with it.

On a related note, a lot of the gay marriage issue would be solved if we just removed marriage from the government.  Just let churches decide for themselves what kind of marriages they want to have.  Civil unions should be the only government recognized institutions in the marriage realm.  That way, religious conservatives can't pull the tradition or religion card and hijack the issue.  It also defuses the divisiveness of the issue in general.
Agreed.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7014|Argentina

Stingray24 wrote:

Why do homosexuals need to be married?  As I've said before, durable power of attorney and medical power of attorney would achieve the same result.  Heterosexual couples should do both durable and medical to ensure their spouse who knows their wishes is calling the shots, not other family or doctors. 

I think this temporarily solves the issue by giving "equality" and protecting the sanctity of marriage, as Ironchef said.  But I don't think it will stop until full marriage is reached.   The president of Alliance for Marriage summed it up "It's not about New Jersey."  And it's not about marriage either.  It's about forcing society to place homosexual couples on an equal moral standing with heterosexual couples by allowing marriage.  This civil rights line is a massive smokescreen and most of America is falling for it.
It's not your ass, why do you care so much?  If they want to marry let 'em.  I prefered them married and not changing couples every week.
~Solar~Fire~
Member
+45|6905|Austin, TX

Stingray24 wrote:

Why do homosexuals need to be married?  As I've said before, durable power of attorney and medical power of attorney would achieve the same result.
Power of Attorney documents don't always work, people opposed to it can find loopholes. Besides why such gay and lesbian couples be forced to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for attornies to create these documents when straight couples get instant and complete recognition for $25?
Good job for New Jersey. I don't understand how gay marriage affects others. YOU AREN'T THE ONE BEING MARRIED. Just let the people live in peace for fuck's sake. Religion is a bullshit brainwash anyways, no need to restrict people with it from marrying those whom they love.

Gay marriage should be allowed 100%. You'd think that at this day and age we'd be beyond this simple problem.

Save your sanctity of marriage bullshit for the divorce rates.

EDIT:

Turquoise wrote:

This is good news, but I just hope that the Supreme Court doesn't interfere with it.

On a related note, a lot of the gay marriage issue would be solved if we just removed marriage from the government.  Just let churches decide for themselves what kind of marriages they want to have.  Civil unions should be the only government recognized institutions in the marriage realm.  That way, religious conservatives can't pull the tradition or religion card and hijack the issue.  It also defuses the divisiveness of the issue in general.
Great fucking idea right here. Remove the bullshit from the system all together, and leave it to the churches.

Quoted for truth and for emphasis.

Last edited by TheCanadianTerrorist (2006-10-25 18:24:26)

DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6942|United States of America
I was recently debating this and the gays who aren't satisfied with their court-issued piece of paper saying they're "married" P-s me O. The marraige is the religious ceremony of it, but the government can't force any church to "marry" them. Hardest damn people to satisfy...
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|7037|Great Brown North
i dont care who does who and where they do it, if they want a little piece of paper saying they're joined who gives a shit?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6702|The Land of Scott Walker

~Solar~Fire~ wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Why do homosexuals need to be married?  As I've said before, durable power of attorney and medical power of attorney would achieve the same result.
Power of Attorney documents don't always work, people opposed to it can find loopholes. Besides why such gay and lesbian couples be forced to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for attornies to create these documents when straight couples get instant and complete recognition for $25?
No matter what kind of couple you are, you'll have to pay a lawyer to draft power of attorney documents.  Family can contest the wishes of your spouse if it's not written down and you don't have durable and medical power of attorney.  Marriage doesn't help you there. 

Turquoise wrote:

I'd actually argue the opposite...  Religion is the smokescreen for homophobia.

Nonetheless, my solution posted above would solve things for both sides.  Just remove the government's connection to marriage, so that churches can decide for themselves what sacred really means.
I'm not scared of homosexuals, that's your assumption.  Disagreeing with the goals of the homosexual movement does not automatically qualify me as a homophobe (which is a stupid politically correct term anyway).  Your idea may work, but the church has already decided what sacred means . . . one man and one woman.  The government's involvement is the legal part. 

TheCanadianTerrorist wrote:

Good job for New Jersey. I don't understand how gay marriage affects others. YOU AREN'T THE ONE BEING MARRIED. Just let the people live in peace for fuck's sake. Religion is a bullshit brainwash anyways, no need to restrict people with it from marrying those whom they love. Gay marriage should be allowed 100%. You'd think that at this day and age we'd be beyond this simple problem.  Save your sanctity of marriage bullshit for the divorce rates.
Gay marriage erodes the special nature of marriage that has always had between one man and one woman.  If two same sex people can get married, why can't someone marry more than one partner, or a minor, etc etc.  Soon it’s meaningless because anyone can get married to anyone or soon anything they want.  Where does it end?  Marriage between a man and a woman, when done right, is a beautiful thing.  We certainly aren't perfect and relationships take work.  Divorce is a lame excuse to allow gay marriage. 

PS  Try to keep your opinion civil, everyone else here has.  No need to say fuck to make your point.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'd actually argue the opposite...  Religion is the smokescreen for homophobia.

Nonetheless, my solution posted above would solve things for both sides.  Just remove the government's connection to marriage, so that churches can decide for themselves what sacred really means.
I'm not scared of homosexuals, that's your assumption.  Disagreeing with the goals of the homosexual movement does not automatically qualify me as a homophobe (which is a stupid politically correct term anyway).  Your idea may work, but the church has already decided what sacred means . . . one man and one woman.  The government's involvement is the legal part.
First of all, many religious people are prejudiced against gay people.  I'm not saying you are, but many people that agree with you are.

Second, if the church has already decided what's sacred, then why do churches disagree on gay marriage?  Protestantism is far from being a monolithic institution.  Some churches have held gay ceremonies.

Stingray24 wrote:

TheCanadianTerrorist wrote:

Good job for New Jersey. I don't understand how gay marriage affects others. YOU AREN'T THE ONE BEING MARRIED. Just let the people live in peace for fuck's sake. Religion is a bullshit brainwash anyways, no need to restrict people with it from marrying those whom they love. Gay marriage should be allowed 100%. You'd think that at this day and age we'd be beyond this simple problem.  Save your sanctity of marriage bullshit for the divorce rates.
Gay marriage erodes the special nature of marriage that has always had between one man and one woman.  If two same sex people can get married, why can't someone marry more than one partner, or a minor, etc etc.  Soon it’s meaningless because anyone can get married to anyone or soon anything they want.  Where does it end?  Marriage between a man and a woman, when done right, is a beautiful thing.  We certainly aren't perfect and relationships take work.  Divorce is a lame excuse to allow gay marriage. 

PS  Try to keep your opinion civil, everyone else here has.  No need to say fuck to make your point.
Again, shouldn't churches decide what the special nature of marriage is, rather than the government?

Last edited by Turquoise (2006-10-25 20:23:59)

Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6702|The Land of Scott Walker

Turquoise wrote:

First of all, many religious people are prejudiced against gay people.  I'm not saying you are, but many people that agree with you are.

Second, if the church has already decided what's sacred, then why do churches disagree on gay marriage?  Protestantism is far from being a monolithic institution.  Some churches have held gay ceremonies.
You're right, Turquoise.  Many people who agree with me are prejudiced against homosexuals and that is wrong.  Some churches are such in name only and do not follow the clear principles laid out in the Bible.  The bend to cultural pressure rather than standing up.   

Turquoise wrote:

Again, shouldn't churches decide what the special nature of marriage is, rather than the government?
The government, by a vote of the people, will have to make a determination what the special nature of marriage is.  Why?  We didn't have to before?  That's because up until now society has agreed that marriage is between one man and one woman.  Now we have the radical homosexual movement that is trying to force  society, and the church along with it, to approve their relationships on the same level as heterosexual marriage.  The church overall, will not.  So homosexuals they have sought the approval of the government to circumvent the principals of the church.  As a result, eroding the special nature of marriage.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Again, shouldn't churches decide what the special nature of marriage is, rather than the government?
The government, by a vote of the people, will have to make a determination what the special nature of marriage is.  Why?  We didn't have to before?  That's because up until now society has agreed that marriage is between one man and one woman.  Now we have the radical homosexual movement that is trying to force  society, and the church along with it, to approve their relationships on the same level as heterosexual marriage.  The church overall, will not.  So homosexuals they have sought the approval of the government to circumvent the principals of the church.  As a result, eroding the special nature of marriage.
I'm sure Martin Luther King was considered a radical for supporting an end to segregation as well.

Whether or not you believe gay marriage is a radical agenda, churches should have the ability to make these decisions for themselves.  I would agree with your implication that homosexuals bringing the government into this has complicated things, but this wouldn't even have to involve the government if civil unions were the only connection government had to this.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6702|The Land of Scott Walker
Don't compare this to segregation.  There is no civil right to have your homosexual relationship considered on the same moral level as heterosexual.   No matter what your sexual preference you can get any job, buy anything you want, go to eat anywhere you want, live anywhere you want, vote for whoever you want, say whatever you want, etc etc etc.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina
Why is this still a moral issue?  If we amend the system to only connect government with civil unions and not marriage, then it is a civil rights issue and not a moral one.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6702|The Land of Scott Walker
Here is why this is a moral issue.  I keep saying this, but maybe you haven't seen my responses in other threads.  Any spouse, hetero or homosexual, could be challenged by family or friends when giving a doctor the order to remove a feeding tube because it was "his/her wish".  If you have medical power of attorney, that issue evaporates.  What about finances?  Durable power of attorney takes care of that.   The homosexual movement has used decisions on medical issues and financial issues as the reason they deserve marriage.  That is a smokescreen for their true agenda.  Even heterosexual couple have to address both of those through an attorney to preserve their wishes.  Marriage does nothing to solve either one of those issues, medical or financial.  Nor do "civil unions".  That is why it's a moral issue, not a civil rights issue.  The end goal is to force society, and churches along with it, to approve homosexual relationships as morally equal to heterosexual marriage.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina
If I understand you correctly, a homosexual marriage would have to settle things through an attorney just like a heterosexual couple.  What's the big deal?
BVC
Member
+325|6952
Lets throw some logic & reasoning into the mix:

- If an objection to gay marriage is based on religious grounds, heterosexual atheist marriages must also be discounted, as there is nothing religious about atheism.
- If an objection to gay marriage is based on christian grounds, heterosexual non-christian religious marriages must also be discounted, as a hindu marriage for example is hardly a christian affair.
- If heterosexual non-christian religious marriages are to continue, an objection to gay marriage cannot be based on christian grounds.
- If heterosexual atheist marriages are allowed to continue, an objection to gay marriage cannot be based on religious grounds.

If objections to gay marriage are not based on christian or more general religious grounds, could someone please explain what exactly they're based on?

Last edited by Pubic (2006-10-25 23:04:04)

Reciprocity
Member
+721|6838|the dank(super) side of Oregon
because it's "icky"?  and it pushed forward the

Stingray24 wrote:

true agenda
of homosexuals who want to infiltrate public schools with their gay offspring to spread gayness to the children and teachers so that one day they will have their gay President of the United States who will change the flag to a rainbow with all kind of gay colors and then every day will be gay day and our history will be gayified and all TV will feature nothing but gaymation cartoons about gays.   PEOPLE, THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

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