jonsimon
Member
+224|6752

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ok, whatever dude.  Still the bottom line is "value" for the money.  Greed, entertainment, and marketting vs. producing educated citizens.  This world is a more pathetic place because of that scale and it's lopsidedness...regardless of skillset, job security, and "loss of privacy." lol  I can't believe you used those things as criteria.  Guess what, an injured, terminated, or retired baseball player can still get a job outside of the entertainment sector..so there's NO risk there of job security.

You know, you'd get alot further in debates if you weren't so snappy.  Your "deal with it" and that totally irrelevent "you won't be able to change the market" comments show alot about you and it's not productive debate language.  I'm no saint, but I know the difference between good debate (like we were doing until you got snappy) and irritable bowel syndrome eruptions.  It's how threads get started on that road to being closed (like that one yesterday where you lost your cool).
Theres still risk, if he never becomes a baseball player, but he played all through his life un into the minor leagues, he just wasted most of his life. That kind of a situation could shatter people. Your're thinking of risk in a lay sense of the word, while economic risk is very real to an athlete's investment of time.

You can't come out with harsh language like "baseball is shit" and expect me to respect you.
And that thread yesterday, I requested it be closed.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California

Jenkinsbball wrote:

I agree 200000% that pro sports players are over paid (Arod), but there's nothing you can do to change it. It's pretty pathetic that some baseball players get $13 million contracts and are subpar player (Juan Encarnocian sp?). That guy gets 3 year/$13 mil and he's a career > .300 batter, has absolutely no clutch ability, no power, and a weak arm. Pretty sad.... he gets all this money when the real heros out there get shiznit for what they have to put up with everyday (people like me).
Well first off, i never said i was going to change it, nor would I believe it was possible.  Entertainment and greed simply rule in the job market and genuine value does not...were it so, nurses, who do the majority of work in hospitals, would get more money than doctors.   But this world says that 4 more years of medical school makes you worth more.  And in some cases it may be true..but your average emergency room..not so.

Also, i was going to debate your talent rebuttle by simply stating that it's not fair of me to say "no-talent" because it's not really something that's easy to judge in comparison to other talents (athletic or not), and further, i realize that it's hard to throw 99mph and hard to hit that little aspirin coming at you that fast..and place that ball over a fence into McCovey's Cove (or whatever that place is called).  Stealing a base requires quick decision making and of course blinding speed.  But since many of the highest paid players are all roid babies (according to my well substantiated opinion), it kinda ruins the whole sport and talent aspect in the name of cheating.  As with the case of Bonds, you physically cannot improve with age as he's done.

And more on the 'talent' debate....it's too vague a label to use in a debate like this.  For instance, how can I say performing a root canal is a more "talented" discipline than say leaping over a wall to catch a ball?  I can't because they are completely different things with enormous ranges of variables, scopes, etc.  I'm no stranger to physical discipline having acheived high accolades in a few sports (volleyball, soccer, track&field).  I understand the vigors of training your body, teaching memory to muscle movement, manipulating your body so it will perform better (legally, of course), etc.  But I also understand scholastic aptitude, focus and attention to detail, and other talents required to do non-athletic things..like fix computers.  I work in a law firm with some of the highest billing and most successful land use, real estate, environmental lawyers in the country..and i marvel at how stupid they can be with their computer applications and basic understanding of technology.  Do I compare their law degrees and experience with the law to my technical knowledge?  I can't because of the obvious variables and depth of study/experience.

Anyway, sorry so long winded.  But that's my thoughts.  Sorry for being the thorn in the thread again.
LockerFish
Member
+47|6963

Jenkinsbball wrote:

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

You guys are dumb, it was dirt and resin and sweat mixed together........there is no proof it was anything, nothing can be appealed, Tigers will win in Game 7.  Thread, over.
LaRussa should've made a bigger deal than he did, if he believed it was something other than dirt. The time is gone, so they can't touch Rogers (even though he's a piece of shit).

But, I believe he was cheating. All the photos of past games, he had the same substance on his hand. It would explain why an ultra shitty pitcher suddenly becomes awesome. I watched him in Texas for made years, and while he had some good stuff in the past, his later years are horrible. I think the Cards are just over anxious and that's why they can't hit him. I mean, fuck, who CAN'T hit an 80 mph fastball? That's just pathetic, and these guys are professionals.
Wrong. You do not suddenly become "awesome" from "ultra shitty" in a professional league of ANY sport. Wrong.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France
Chris Berman isn't interviewing the local dentist after a root canal.  No one cares.  It has nothing to do with skill.

That's where their opportunity arises, and that's why they are worth more.
duffmancometh
Member
+5|6746|Boca Raton, FL

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

You guys are dumb, it was dirt and resin and sweat mixed together........there is no proof it was anything, nothing can be appealed, Tigers will win in Game 7.  Thread, over.
Ah.. A Detroit supporter.  Who care if Kenny is a cheater.  He cheated in the Yankees series, in the A's series and now the World Series.  He's old and needs every advantage he can get.  It most certainly was pine tar and not dirt and resin.  I pitched for 10 years and my hand only looked like that if I used pine tar.

St. Louis in 6.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California

jonsimon wrote:

but he played all through his life un into the minor leagues, he just wasted most of his life. That kind of a situation could shatter people. Your're thinking of risk in a lay sense of the word, while economic risk is very real to an athlete's investment of time.
Does the father of 5, who only knows how to be a systems admin with a mere 10 years of experience risk less?  How bout ina job market where demand for my talent is diminished?  And if I made $1 million dollars, I would be pretty foolish to not have some of that income set aside to feed my family of 5 for the rest of their lives under my roof.  The example of someone starting from their youth to be a baseball pro is no different than the kid who starts to go to school to be a regular working schmuck..or a brilliant brain surgeon or a google ceo.  And training a mind is just as difficult to train a body.  Genetics work in both departments if i'm not mistaken.

jonsimon wrote:

You can't come out with harsh language like "baseball is shit" and expect me to respect you.
And that thread yesterday, I requested it be closed.
I'm not here to be respected, but I am here to debate, so I've since apologized twice now for the harsh criticism I gave to baseball.

Oh yeah, just thought I'd do "the google" and see if I could survive on some savings set aside from my average baseball career...found this:

The average salary in baseball last year was $2,555,476, according to figures released this week by The Associated Press

So yeah, if I manipulated my body, had the genetics, and had the single mindedness to pursue such a rare opportunity..i'd make sure I'd have security with my $2.5 million in earnings.  And I'd also be making sure I had a basic college education while doing it just in case my knee blew out or something.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-10-25 12:22:12)

deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut

IRONCHEF wrote:

Baseball is a piece of shit game to begin with..i was doing fine not knowing who was in the world series until you made this thread that I foolishly read...great!  Thanks!

it's not surprising that this level of blatant cheating happens.  everytime I see Bond's ugly, depressed, pathetic face on SF Bay Area TV, i just assume baseball is just a breeding ground for such blatant mockery of rules, standards, personal integrity.  that, and it's a boring, no talent sport.
A man who does not like baseball or football is gay, hands down. Make a poll and see for yourself. You sir, are gay.
Malloy must go
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California
Yet I live a perfectly heterosexual life with a gorgeous wife and 3 wonderfull children.  You sir, are ignorant and wrong.

And here's my gay lover and our adopted orphans..who of course are also gay.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-10-25 12:26:44)

deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yet I live a perfectly heterosexual life with a gorgeous wife and 3 wonderfull children.  You sir, are ignorant and wrong.
Then you are a closet queer. Men like baseball and fotball. Its just how it is. Even if you dont like it you pretend. Ignorant, absolutely.....wrong, nope.
Malloy must go
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yet I live a perfectly heterosexual life with a gorgeous wife and 3 wonderfull children.  You sir, are ignorant and wrong.

And here's my gay lover and our adopted orphans..who of course are also gay.
Ive seen you before. Seriously. You live in Hartford Ct right?
Malloy must go
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California
Excellent.  Thanks for the constructive posting....  not even gonna bother reporting your personal attack.

and no, i live on the left coast.  antioch, CA...where all the gays live who don't like baseball and football.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-10-25 12:30:37)

darthazeem
Member
+7|6729
Come on now all of you wankers lets look at the facts.  ESPN went back to look at pics from the ALCS and the Yankees game and he had it both times.  Then for some unknown reason after the 1st inning of game 2 of the World Series its "gone".   Come on now this man is a blatent cheater nothing more needs to be said about it.  What gets me even more is that he and others say that it is dirt and resin combined is utterly BULLSH*T.  I know what dirt looks like and that "WAS NOT DIRT".  The worst part about it is that he should have been branded a cheater to all but Larussa didnt demand an inspection and it is all speculation now.  Come on all of you that are standing up for him do you want to be suspected of being a cheater too?  We all know what was done and that it was "NOT" legal, but we have to move on and forget about it.

GO CARDINALS

CARDS IN 5

https://www.bf2sigs.net/sigs/2/7/67240774.png

Last edited by darthazeem (2006-10-25 12:36:09)

deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut

IRONCHEF wrote:

Excellent.  Thanks for the constructive posting....  not even gonna bother reporting your personal attack.

and no, i live on the left coast.  antioch, CA...where all the gays live who don't like baseball and football.
They say everyone has an identical look alike....yours is in Connecticut. Just like you bro.
Malloy must go
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut
https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2649/whatthefuckiv3.th.jpg
Im not gay I have the hottest girlfriend EVER!!! If you dont laugh at this you need a vacation, seriously.
Malloy must go
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California
[with my best Curley laugh] "Nooooook nook nook nook!!"
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6750|Connecticut

IRONCHEF wrote:

[with my best Curley laugh] "Nooooook nook nook nook!!"
Im glad to see you can joke. Take that family on vacation anyways, Disney perhaps.
Malloy must go
Navyholdi99
Member
+4|6742|Virginia Beach, VA

jonsimon wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Oh come on, you're saying they earn what they do because their "skillset" is hard to master?  NO, getting a law degree or being able to handle a classroom of teens is truly a greater, more valuable, and probably harder skill than getting a .300 average.  The pay is completely out of proportion because it is entertainment..it has dedicated massive stadiums to pay for, and scalpers to appease..it has national TV audiences..where as the last PTA meeting I went to had 3 people show up.

Delicate surgery?  $200k.  Hitting a baseball 1 out of 3 times..out of the park one out of 100 times? $5M?  I don't think the proportion is fair. 

You know, my wife and I were discussing this and thought "If becoming a teacher meant getting a $1 million dollar annual salary, it too would be as competative and glamorous as being a pro baseball player."  and guess what, the teaching job would produce a positive effect into the world instead of gluttony, laziness, and alcoholism! lol

Anyway, sorry for harshing baseball.  I realize there's fanatics out there who loves themselves a good ball game, so I'll chill.  But the pay, attitude of players, and overall mindset of pro sports just saddens me.
You don't think it is fair, but it is. They invest the majority of their life in their sport. The risk of their investment before they make the leagues is great, most athletes spend their childhood in some sort of preparation, as well as a large portion of their time while employed. Likewise, professional athletes see relatively little job security, as well as large amounts of structural, frictional, and seasonal unemployment. The highest paid of athletes sacrifice privacy, and all professional athletes see high levels of stress, both physical and psychological. And, frankly, some people are genetically incapable of acting at the levels of professional Athletes.

Sorry, chef, but being an Athlete is costly and risky, therefore, employing one is costly as well.

Teachers don't make the small salaries they do because the oppertunity cost of attempting to become a teacher is that much smaller than that of attempting to be a professional Athlete. If you don't like it, deal with it. You won't be able to change the market.
I'm sorry...but I have to post something here.  Every job is going to have some sort of risk involved...as well as stress.  It's all in the eye of the beholder...but you can't tell me that playing baseball (or any sport) is more risky or stressful than landing on the back of an aircraft carrier at night.  Trust me...I speak from experience with both. 

I agree with Ironchef on this one...although I think the NBA is the worst league out there for bad people getting paid too much money and not respecting the game or each other (I can't feed my family on 7 million...yeah whatever).  The reason they are paid so much is because people pay to watch them.  If the fans went on strike like the players feel they can whenever 5 million a year isn't enough...I wonder what would happen.  Frankly I would love to see it to some of the sports out there (but not the NFL...I have a soft sport for football).

Word.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6752

IRONCHEF wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

but he played all through his life un into the minor leagues, he just wasted most of his life. That kind of a situation could shatter people. Your're thinking of risk in a lay sense of the word, while economic risk is very real to an athlete's investment of time.
Does the father of 5, who only knows how to be a systems admin with a mere 10 years of experience risk less?  How bout ina job market where demand for my talent is diminished?  And if I made $1 million dollars, I would be pretty foolish to not have some of that income set aside to feed my family of 5 for the rest of their lives under my roof.  The example of someone starting from their youth to be a baseball pro is no different than the kid who starts to go to school to be a regular working schmuck..or a brilliant brain surgeon or a google ceo.  And training a mind is just as difficult to train a body.  Genetics work in both departments if i'm not mistaken.

jonsimon wrote:

You can't come out with harsh language like "baseball is shit" and expect me to respect you.
And that thread yesterday, I requested it be closed.
I'm not here to be respected, but I am here to debate, so I've since apologized twice now for the harsh criticism I gave to baseball.

Oh yeah, just thought I'd do "the google" and see if I could survive on some savings set aside from my average baseball career...found this:

The average salary in baseball last year was $2,555,476, according to figures released this week by The Associated Press

So yeah, if I manipulated my body, had the genetics, and had the single mindedness to pursue such a rare opportunity..i'd make sure I'd have security with my $2.5 million in earnings.  And I'd also be making sure I had a basic college education while doing it just in case my knee blew out or something.
The kid who goes through school to be a regular schmuck begins specialization of his education only once he enters college and works toward a degree or major. The kid who spends his freetime playing a sport and continually persues it is investing his time in one profession all his life. The difference is oppertunity cost, anyone can become an office worker without giving up anything during his primary and secondary education, but the future athlete invests time during his whole education. All I'm explaining to you are the economic reasons athletes get better pay.

Thatr's still not what job security means... job security isn't youre retirement means, it's the liklihood you will not lose your current job.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6748|Northern California
Thatr's still not what job security means... job security isn't youre retirement means, it's the liklihood you will not lose your current job.

Job security to me, is being able to keep a job, and saving money from that job to weather unemployment storms.  If I made more than what I make now ($75k annually), I'd be more secure.  If I made $2M, I'd be able to play as wreckless as i wanted because I'd have a swiss account making interest to live off of if my income stopped.  I bring my children into the office now and then to remind those I work with taht I'm a father of 3 cute little kids that everyone loves.  One professional baseball paycheck would mean I don't have to do that ever again.  I could go on with my "job security" definitions, but instead, I'll pull an "O'Reilly" and "agree to disagree." 

Good debate, by the way.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6752

IRONCHEF wrote:

Thatr's still not what job security means... job security isn't youre retirement means, it's the liklihood you will not lose your current job.

Job security to me, is being able to keep a job, and saving money from that job to weather unemployment storms.  If I made more than what I make now ($75k annually), I'd be more secure.  If I made $2M, I'd be able to play as wreckless as i wanted because I'd have a swiss account making interest to live off of if my income stopped.  I bring my children into the office now and then to remind those I work with taht I'm a father of 3 cute little kids that everyone loves.  One professional baseball paycheck would mean I don't have to do that ever again.  I could go on with my "job security" definitions, but instead, I'll pull an "O'Reilly" and "agree to disagree." 

Good debate, by the way.
You're confusing what would fall under income security or social security. Job security in economics and the media refers to a high liklihood that you will keep your current job under varying circumstances.
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6817

jonsimon wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Thatr's still not what job security means... job security isn't youre retirement means, it's the liklihood you will not lose your current job.

Job security to me, is being able to keep a job, and saving money from that job to weather unemployment storms.  If I made more than what I make now ($75k annually), I'd be more secure.  If I made $2M, I'd be able to play as wreckless as i wanted because I'd have a swiss account making interest to live off of if my income stopped.  I bring my children into the office now and then to remind those I work with taht I'm a father of 3 cute little kids that everyone loves.  One professional baseball paycheck would mean I don't have to do that ever again.  I could go on with my "job security" definitions, but instead, I'll pull an "O'Reilly" and "agree to disagree." 

Good debate, by the way.
You're confusing what would fall under income security or social security. Job security in economics and the media refers to a high liklihood that you will keep your current job under varying circumstances.
Bewarre the money trap. Most people think that by earning more they will be more stable. The problem is that as income goes up so do spending habits. And before you know it your right back were you started from.
Just my two cents. Oh, Ironchef, get those kids thinking about money now.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France
If one's left handed, you just have to throw in the eighties to make the majors...not too late to plan your retirement....
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6890|USA
He wiped it off in the first inning. still won the game. if it was wiped in the 8th. different Story.
Jenkinsbball
Banned
+149|6805|USA bitches!

LockerFish wrote:

Jenkinsbball wrote:

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

You guys are dumb, it was dirt and resin and sweat mixed together........there is no proof it was anything, nothing can be appealed, Tigers will win in Game 7.  Thread, over.
LaRussa should've made a bigger deal than he did, if he believed it was something other than dirt. The time is gone, so they can't touch Rogers (even though he's a piece of shit).

But, I believe he was cheating. All the photos of past games, he had the same substance on his hand. It would explain why an ultra shitty pitcher suddenly becomes awesome. I watched him in Texas for made years, and while he had some good stuff in the past, his later years are horrible. I think the Cards are just over anxious and that's why they can't hit him. I mean, fuck, who CAN'T hit an 80 mph fastball? That's just pathetic, and these guys are professionals.
Wrong. You do not suddenly become "awesome" from "ultra shitty" in a professional league of ANY sport. Wrong.
I'm sorry, but Rogers has been a shitty pitcher for fucking years. It's been proven, just look at ALL of his service for the Rangers the past few years and his time with the Yankees. Now, suddenly, he has a 0.00 ERA in the playoffs? Something stinks.
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6901|Seattle, WA

Jenkinsbball wrote:

LockerFish wrote:

Jenkinsbball wrote:


LaRussa should've made a bigger deal than he did, if he believed it was something other than dirt. The time is gone, so they can't touch Rogers (even though he's a piece of shit).

But, I believe he was cheating. All the photos of past games, he had the same substance on his hand. It would explain why an ultra shitty pitcher suddenly becomes awesome. I watched him in Texas for made years, and while he had some good stuff in the past, his later years are horrible. I think the Cards are just over anxious and that's why they can't hit him. I mean, fuck, who CAN'T hit an 80 mph fastball? That's just pathetic, and these guys are professionals.
Wrong. You do not suddenly become "awesome" from "ultra shitty" in a professional league of ANY sport. Wrong.
I'm sorry, but Rogers has been a shitty pitcher for fucking years. It's been proven, just look at ALL of his service for the Rangers the past few years and his time with the Yankees. Now, suddenly, he has a 0.00 ERA in the playoffs? Something stinks.
His numbers improved before the playoffs, sounds like your sport reporting stinks.

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